Frustrations (verbose)

[Duffer]

Hey all!

Up front, I want to thank you all who offer so much help to us beginners! I appreciate it. Many, many others do too, I'm sure.

So, another day at the range trying to sort out my new Western Disc Extreme & #11 CCIs. Not one hangfire/misfire yet.

History: I'm trying to shoot lead conicals cuz that's what's legal in Idaho.
I'm pouring my own 501-440s with dads' lead which I assume to be wheel weight hardness or a bit harder. Sized/lubed to .501 (which is not much smaller than the Lee mold drops) with Lyman Black Powder Gold lube. (Think Lip Balm consistancy) My Lubesizer won't paper-patch (different discussion) so I'm using a .125" dry paper wad on the powder. Bullets push into the bore with just a bit of thumb pressure. Not a 'drop-in' but fairly easy. They mic at about .0005/.001 over bore.

More history: Shoot #1 was just to try her out. 80gns Pyrodex RS thru dovetail until I got her on the paper at 100yards is all. (No paper wads yet) Everything worked as expected. Shoot #2 I went to T7-ffg (for no particular reason) and a crappy no-name scope dad had. (now with paper wads) I had the ramrod probs, (pin your rod ends!) so I just shot dirty. Got on at 50 but one shot disappeared. I assumed it went thru a previous hole. Moved to 100 and was making scope adjustments/progress until I suddenly had a flier. I assumed she was finally too dirty (after about 17 shots) so I packed up....but was she dirty or something more sinister?

Today: With my 'New' Bushnell Extreme 600 that I scored from local Cabelas Bargain Cave for a super deal mounted, I started at 100gns T7. Got on paper at 50, (windex/dry swab after every shot) but something was weird. I'd make a scope adjust and things would go as planned. Then another adjust and POI moves the wrong way! I decided to back down to 85gns. On paper at 50 again, then 100. Same sort of 'huge pattern' or scope prob symptoms. Some shots completely miss the paper! I take a couple at 75gns. No better. I shoot one without wad and it tears a horrid hole; bullet obviously tumbling! Move back to 50yds. Must not be engaging rifling enough maybe? So I take some shots with 110gns thinking the bullets need more obturation. THAT'S a shouder punch! AND.... Complete miss at 50! Aim at top of paper? Complete miss. Aim at bottom of paper? Complete miss. These are the 12"x16" targets btw. Pull breech, clean everything, eyeball-bore sight her. Reassemble. Complete miss. I'm done!

So, this is mostly just a vent. Too many variables for you'all to solve this for me, I'm sure. Taking scope back tomorrow and buying a fresh bottle of Pyrodex RS. I'll clean her up in the morn. Never saw any leading on my patches btw.

I shot so much today that my mind can't sort it all out.

Could be the scope? Maybe she don't like T7? Bullets too loose in bore? Bullets too hard? More lube? Less lube? Something I'm else completely overlooking? Grrrr....

[Whiterabbit]

I dont know half of what you are shooting, the lingo is not something I am up to speed with.

But I was trying to make a LEE REAL work in my inline using a sabot load and it wasn't working at all. Same symptoms you describe.

It was too much powder and too small a bullet. I was casting with softer lead than you, too!

My suggestion:

Get the bullet to fit. Nice and tight.
Use less powder. No need to strip the rifling.
Use soft lead. Maximize obturation.

That fixed it for me. Shoots as well as my sabot stuff and no recoil. Uses less than half the powder and 25% less lead.

[Duffer]

Thanx for the reply!

From inputs/suggestions here's the direction I'm gonna go.

I'm dumping the scope. Probably a reason it was in the 'Bargain Cave'
I've got mucho wheel weight muffins and no pure soft, so I'll be posting for some swaps and then I'll cast up softer boolits
I'll check over all of the fasteners when I get home
Going back to my original Pyrodex RS @ 80gns starting point. T7 = not impressed
I still want to try some paper-patching so I'll be looking for a cheap push-thru sizer
My Lee mold is gonna need more honing, or possibly 'shimming' to get a lil more diameter out of it

I'm being a lil stubborn but I really want to be able to sling my own cast conicals and I like these!

[fouronesix]

Good luck on understanding the OP.:veryconfu

[Omnivore]

Yeah; I wouldn't even consider puting a scope on a muzzleloader for shooting 100 yards and less, until I had a super accurate load worked out first. Even then it would be questionable. As it is you're introducing too many variables at the same time, and beating yourself up chasing ghosts.

Start with the very basics. Start with a bullet that fits right, that's in the proper weight range for your rifling twist, and of dead soft or nearly dead soft lead, and go to work at 50 yards until you can consistently get all shots touching or nearly touching. Forget shooting at greater distances until you have a good consistent load. And it may be that your rifle will not shoot well with that bullet, so bring along some alternatives as suggested by others.

After going through some of this myself, I probably would not buy a mold until I had some idea of what type of boolit the rifle seems to like.

Try to change only one variable at a time. Take a deep breath. Relax. Shoot one powder in several charge weights, do the same with a wad. Try another powder and do it all again, etc.

This is the fun part, where you are engagerd in the process of discovery. Enjoy it to its fullest.

And forget about using an optic until you have conclusively proven the basic system, and then proven it again. You may find that you're completely satisfied with the rifle's performance with its factory sights, or a good peep sight.

[rtracy2001]

Buy some Hornady Great Plains and/or maxi-balls and see if you get decent results. I would suggest some other projectiles, but if Idaho limits you to lead conicals, that is what you'll need to use.

Unless it is a special hunt, Idaho rules just say that the projectile must be lead, (no jackets) Roundbals are OK, as are the lead conicals. Scopes are a no-no, but a peep is OK. You can even use tritium sights, so long as you don't use any optics.

IDFG rules for ML are here: http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/rules/?getPage=299

I have heard that 777 does not perform well with caps, and needs a 209 primer to really light it up, but I have no personal experience with it. 209 primers are also verboten in Idaho.

[Duffer]

Yup! No scopes in Idaho (as in Washington also where I live now)
I only mounted it up to help my old eyes with working up a load. I never presumed that I would end up in the situation where I had a better chance (a wayyyy better change) of punching the 50yrd bullseye with my bow than with this muzzy! LOL!
afa which conical I'm trying, I did weeks and weeks of reading/studying web forums before matching this design to my Knight. The mold was dirt cheap and has allowed me to learn boolit casting as well!
Cabelas took the scope back no prob. Czechtwo is setting me up with some soft lead :) Progress!

Thanx all once again!

[HARRYMPOPE]

Triple Seven lights fine with CCI #11 mags. I use 75-80g of it in my Lyman .50 GP Hunter with the Lyman plains bullets with good luck.It shoots 3" at 100 yards for 5 shots most of the time and occasionally under 2" if my eyeballs are screwed on tight.

[Doc Highwall]

Years ago I use to use a heavy charge of black powder thinking I needed all that powder. Then after reading about the bison hunters and finding that the most popular cartridge was the 44-77 got me to thinking why I was using so much powder.

I don't suggest using as much powder today and as an after thought Triple Seven and Pryodex are more powerful.

I suggest a lighter charge.

[Hamish]

Good luck on understanding the OP.:veryconfu

Having a little trouble understanding how this helps.

At all.

[johnson1942]

if you use a bullet thats soft and really it in need of ingageing your in. use a good starter and a small rubber hammer to tap it in. if it is soft lead it will go down easy once ingaged. i dont understand the paper wad? use .60 fiber wads obtained from buffalo arms. they seal and protect. dont go over 70 grains at first and maybe stay their. i dont care what kind of powder you use and how clean it is supposed to be one fairly damp patch followed by 2 dry ones between each shot and it can make the difference. nothing is more accurate than blackpowder but after that you have to figure it out. pyrodox has more residue than the others,but, it cleans out slippery with the three patch clean, not sticky. it goes off easy also. do not tamp pyrodox as it is spongy and this will change the pressure and thus the velocity thus the accuracy. set your bullet carefully with the same pressure on pyrodox to keep it accurate. most of this has been said before and they were right. ingage a soft bullet on 3 patch cleaned barrel, 70 grains of powder, fiber .60 wad. between bullet and powder, dont tamp just set on. repeat, repeat ect. i think you will like the results. have fun johnson 1942

[fouronesix]

Having a little trouble understanding how this helps.

At all.

Just an observation. Help what? I read the OP and had no idea of what he was trying to do or had done. That includes sentences like this in one of the responses to this OP, "if you use a bullet thats soft and really it in need of engageing your in." Mercy!!!!

[johnson1942]

i apologise for upsetting you fouronesix. as for duffer, he just came in from a very frustrating experience on the range. he displayed that in his writing but i think it was quite clear he was seeking help in one thing and that was consistant accracy. i apologise for upsetting you again when contributeing, just trying to reinforce some things said by others so he could gain from us. i bet when he contributes next time when he come in from the range happy and content he will write in a differnt style. lets give him a chance i wish him all the success we have all experienced.

[deep creek]

duffer go to the hunting. net blackpowder forum ask cayugad about your problem theres several that play with disc ex. also read idaho rons sticky on paper patching.It will help a lot.I think your main problem is not using soft lead.You allso need to slug your barrel so you know its diameter.My whites slugs at.504 so i shoot a .503 when fired the bullet obturates and fills the rifling for a good spin.I shoot a 500 sw 450 grn paper patched bullet sized to .503 its good to 250 yrds very accurate.Hope this helps deepcreek

[Mooseman]

Guys,
We are here to help people with problems they have, not to bash the way they express themselves or their style of writing. We all come from different backgrounds and education. I understood everything he said in his post. He has a problem , lets help him fix it !
As a longtime BP shooter in both Muzzleloaders and BP Cartridges , I agree with some of the above comments. Softer lead, in a 50 cal a powder charge of 70 to 90 grains of black or equivalent volume of Pyrodex. I would start with patched round balls personally and stick with one powder charge to get the gun shooting groups at 50 yards then 100 yards for setting the sights.
Then try soft Maxi balls (conicals) , and some guns prefer a certain weight of those to be stabilized in flight and shoot accurately. I have made "waxed paper Cartridges" for Muzzleloaders, with the ball and powder charge in one.Tear the end dump in the powder, shove the waxed paper and ball down and tamp in place and shoot. I see very little difference if any between that and a greased cloth patched ball.With Conical hollow base Maxis , They get greased and rammed home right on top of the powder. They shoot a slightly lower POI than the RB.
I also suggest larger target boards from appliance boxes so you know exactly where your hits are on paper...with misses, you never know.
Also have someone watch you shoot to see if you are flinching if you are shooting offhand.

Rich

[johnson1942]

to mooseman: thankyou

[Duffer]

Thank you all for the help and suggestions! Especially for a guy who may be a few fries short of a Happy Meal! ;-)
afa my conical woes, I'll spend more time there once I get some cast up in soft lead. The concensus seems to be either scope trouble or that I'm casting with too hard of lead. Scope replaced. Soft lead on its way. Thanx also to members here for swapping lead with me!

So about today's shooting (I'll post target pics next week). I scored a quantity of 250grn Shockwaves, (which are in the mail) so I picked up some local 250SSTs for testing since I heard they are basically the same.
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/bjsane/HornadySSTLowDrag.jpg

After an initial misfire with my #11 primers (should have popped a cap or two first) I recapped with a #11 magnum and put one on the paper at 50yds. Took me a couple more to get her on bullseye (it's nice when stuff works like you think it should!) and then I shot a couple more but the group was, I thought, a bit large for 50yds. About 4 inches. That was 110 gns Pyrodex RS ffg, CCI #11 mags, one windex and 2 dry swabs every shot and the 250grn Hornady SST 'low drags'.

Since I was short on time (and bullets) I moved out to 100yds and lowered the charge to 100gns. After some scope adjusting, I had 3 shots in 4" plus one out of the zone which could have been me! I'm on sand bags but I'm not the 'coolest cucumber' when shooting :shock:

Just for fun, I shot one with 120gns of Pyrodex.... and it went WAY LOW. I thought that was quite telling!

I had 4 bullets left, so I lowered the charge to 90gns and they all went in a 3"-ish group with the very last shot dead center bullseye! Also interesting that lowering the charge from 100g to 90g did not lose ANY elevation!

I left a happy dude! :happy dance:

A couple of notes and lessons: Hoppes solvent WILL NOT protect a barrel bore from rusting. Even after telling myself, "it'll only be sitting like that for one week!" My initial swabs came out bright orange! DUH! I'm an idiot for thinking I could get away with that one. These SST low drags do load pretty easy. There is an interesting variation there tho. One would be 'sitting down' easy and the next one I would have to stand up to load. Hoping the Shockwaves are a bit tighter and more consistant but for the price I can't complain about these SSTs. At least not much! ;-)

....... soon back to conical boolit testing!