Heavy boolits with lighter charges

[mdevlin53]

Here is a question i would like to understand.
When i load for 45-70 with Goex 2f i use the standard method where i measure the ammount of powder that will fill the case to the level where it is just above where my boolit will seat along with an cards i might use. When i use a 500gr boolit i can not get the same volume of powder in the case as when i load a 405grn boolit. Does the increased weight of the boolit and larger boolit surface area (friction moving through the barrel) offset the lighter charge.
So what happens to my velocity(i dont have a chrono) will it stay relativly the same or drop off with the bigger boolit. With smokeless you can get an idea of your velocity from the loading tables but not with BP.
thanks for any insight
Michael

[Bullshop]

With BP it is simple, more powder = more velocity
If you have to reduce the charge with the heavier boolit I believe the velocity will be reduced as well.
It sounds like maybe you just need a design for the heavier boolit that will allow the same charge of powder.
All boolits are not created equal. If you cant afford another mold you can nose size from your current mold to something about .451" diameter and then be able to seat the boolit out farther to allow the larger powder charge.
If you happen to load for a 45 handgun you would have the sizer already. Nose sizing the top drive band or two is simple if you have a lube sizer. I just use a blank top punch that is close to caliber and fashion a stop for the ram to the depth I want the boolit nose sized. Start the boolit nose first and run the ram down until it hits the stop. That will size the nose to whatever die diameter you have in the press. .451 will seat easily in most barrels. Some of the early imports were tight but they all run pretty close to .450"X.458" now.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Compression Goex likes it. More powder bigger bullets.

KW
The Lunger

[mehavey]

So what happens to my velocity... will it stay relativly the same or drop off with the bigger boolit.
BP is a non-progressive propellant and does not (appreciably) burn/release greater energy upon increase in pressure.
The heavier 500gr bullet will therefore be slower than the 405gr if using the same amount of powder.

(Doesn't mean you can't put in 10% more, and then compress it.) :mrgreen:

[mdevlin53]

so once you reach the limit on how much you can fit in the case with compression then the only other options are to seat the boolit out further or use perhaps 3F powder(is that advisable)?

[mehavey]

Or you can go to Swiss... which has a somewhat higher energy density than GoEX.

[Lead pot]

Why dont you give us a little more information on what you are using for a rifle and bullets and what your trying to reach.
Messing with sizing down bullet ogive diameters by pushing them into seating dies or sizing dies with the base unsupported messes up the bullet base. You will get by with at 15 yard cowboy shooting distances but beyond that it's a shooting ****. crapper

If you are using a 405 gr bullet with a load of 2F blk and want to go with a say a 500 gr and hold the velocity close with a guess with out the use of a chrone you can use 3F or you can increase the compression of the 2F as well as the 3F.

If you want to hold the same point of impact at a given distance the heavy bullet even at a lower velocity will hit higher then the lighter 405 gr with the same powder charge, (now I'm talking closer ranges of 100-200 yds) because of the added recoil and muzzle jump.

Tell us what your after and what fore,Target,Hunt, How far you want to shoot? at what?

[oldracer]

Hummm, when I started, I used weight and later shifted to volume. After I figured the seating depth of the bullet, I adjusted the compression die to make that happen with a milk carton wad. I started at 60gn and went to 70gn in 2gn jumps and finally settled on 68gn as best in all 3 of my rifles.To match the volume to weight which was close, I used one of the adjustable volume measures at set it at 68 and put in the powder, taped it slightly and then adjusted the powder measure to through that volume each time. I check it every six months or so to make sure the powder measure has not changed.

Having said all that, have you ever measured the weight or volume of the powder charge you are using? Seems a bit hit and miss the way you describe it? You are correct in the observation of the 500gn going further into the case than a lighter bullet and from the shooters I have observed they get a bullet they like all stick with it. In the end, the amount of compression is set to make sure the bullet is a few thousands off the lands and will vary with the amount of powder. There were several very well written articles in Black Powder Cartridge Magazine that covered powders, compression and all that sort of stuff and they most all resulted in the conclusions like I mentioned.

[mdevlin53]

Just to be clear once i determine a volume for the particular boolit then i weigh that charge. going forward each charge is weiged to make sure there is a consistant ammount of powder in each case. I guess what it boils down to is i dont have a way to determine velocity based on the charge of powder and therfore energy. if i have to reduce the powder for a 500grn boolit then the energy is reduced as well so is there any benifit to the heavier boolit. I can see this and make choices using the smokless data but there seem to be no tables for BP.

[Old-Win]

Maybe this will help. http://dragonflybridge.com/cgi-bin/MuzzleVelocity/Cartridge.pl
Some say it isn't realistic but it comes up with answers similar to what I get with some of my loads. Bob

[Don McDowell]

Heavier bullet will go slower with the same powder charge.
You can compress the powder to get a full 70 grs or more of Goex 2f in and still comfortably seat most 500+gr bullets to the driving band.
If the velocity from that isn't high enough you can either go to 3f, or a bigger cartridge.

[oldracer]

I had the same issue with my load work up and I finally bought a chronograph at the gun show we have in San Diego several times a year. I am too dammed lazy to go to the garage and get my notebook to see what the velocity differences were for loads when I was going up or down by the 2gn increments. I remember it was no significant as I thought it would be. I also noted only slight differences between wiping between shots and just using the blow tube. I have also "borrowed" one periodically at our range when fiddling with my muzzle loaders as I would forget to bring it with me?! Maybe someone can let you borrow or shoot through one?

[mdevlin53]

Using the FPS calculator old win supplied and a muzzle energy calculator i found on the web i came up with some figures,
60grns goex 2f 32 inch barrel .458 500 grn boolit is 1139 fps and 1440 f/lbs
60grns goex 2f 32 inch barrel .458 405 grn boolit is 1250 fps and 1405 f/lbs
So i can get 60 grains under both my boolits and still seat to the crimp groove. for a hunting round at 100 yards or less can expect both of these to have about the same performance? I know the heavier boolit should retain more energy at 100 yards but the difference should not be much.
so the bottom line is why should i bother with the larger boolit if the performance is so close or is it?

[bigted]

interesting thing is that ive read that the ODG's... [hunters that is]...used liter boolits then we use today...the 50's were ussually shot with 425 to 450 grain boolits and the 45's were loaded with mostly 400ish grain boolits. the 500 grain boolits used were for navy practice where they were required to penetrate wood planks and such and then they loaded the 500's for the gatling guns. most of the military loads were of 400ish grain loads for a couple reassons...recoil and boolit speed...thus better accuracy on the battlefield and more casualtys on the other side which is always a good thing when you wanna win.

the buff hunters shot many diff diameter and weight boolits but the most used for 45's as i read was the 400ish grain boolits. the heavy boolits were used for longrange target use as they would buck the wind better...most hunting is acomplished well under 200 yards and thusly a 45 cal boolit of 400 grains will and do do an awsome job of felling all sorts of game.

[mdevlin53]

I think i may shoot some 405s and 500s side by side and see how they perform. i have shot them befor but never in the same session. Thinking i will stick with the 405s for hunting as unless Bison Grizzlies or Elk wander to the east coast the 405s will be up to the game here in NY.

[RMulhern]

I think i may shoot some 405s and 500s side by side and see how they perform. i have shot them befor but never in the same session. Thinking i will stick with the 405s for hunting as unless Bison Grizzlies or Elk wander to the east coast the 405s will be up to the game here in NY.

Hmmm....you're NOT going to tell the rifle what it likes; rather just the reverse! In my experience the way to go is find the bullet/load combination/alloy that the rifle is the most accurate with and use it![smilie=s:

[beng]

I like the dragonflybridge.com, I added it to my favorites. I'm new to BP

[anthonytrkr]

Your case only has so much capicity. With bp the bullet need to be seated tightly aginst the charge. More lead less powder- less lead more powder. Accuracy is lost when the jump the bullet makes from case to the lands of rifeling increases. The only way I can see to load these cartridges and manage recoil is to use a filler. May be some one with more knowledge can shed some light on loading bp.