Homemade Blueing Salts

[birch]

Like many at this site, I prefer to use or make my own supplies rather than buying them. I am just wondering if anyone has a recipe or/and tips on a good homemade blueing salt bath. I plan on buying one of those old star 9mm paras from sarco for my experiment, so I actually plan on trying different formulas and using muriatic acid to remove the blueing solution results until I find one that works on that particular type of steel. If anyone has any suggestions for makes and models of firearms that they have used homemade salts on, and the recipe they used for a particular firearm, I would appreciate any info you have.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Try this: http://www.blindhogg.com/homemadesalts.html

I don't use this, I use a slow rust blue as I don't care for the chemicals in hot blueing!

[birch]

That is the only blueing recipe I have found so far. What type of slow rust blueing do use. I know alot of people really like the belgian blue solution

[M-Tecs]

I would also be interested in your slow rust blue recipe. Thanks

[xs hedspace]

I use Laurel Mt. Barrel Brown from Brownells for rust bluing. Just boil in distilled or rain water after rusting for a few hours(Summer humidity), and it turns nicely blue/black. Card with a super fine wire wheel(like you can put your finger in it when running at 1750 rpm), repeat 4-6 times, done.

[Bulldogger]

Not sure if this thread in another forum is accessible publicly, but it should be. Try this: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=22;t=24170;hl=hydroxide

He has a technique using common drain cleaner as the active ingredients. Much cheaper than buying all the goodies separately.

Bulldogger

[gnoahhh]

I'll agree with doing slow rust bluing at home. I feel a nicer finish is the result without the noxious chemicals and fumes of hot dipping. Lots of good solutions for rust bluing, most of which are available from Brownell's. When you realize that 3-4 guns can be done with one bottle of the stuff, it doesn't make much sense to try making your own cost-wise.

[Reg]

One of the best "one tank" blues I ever used was the old Herter's Belgium Blue.
Just for the sake of conversation, does anyone have any idea what it is composed of ???

[oldred]

Reg I don't know exactly what all was in the original Herter's formula but it supposedly contained toxic mercury salts which would be VERY difficult to obtain today.

[Reg]

Reg I don't know exactly what all was in the original Herter's formula but it supposedly contained toxic mercury salts which would be VERY difficult to obtain today.

That would not be good. Sure was good stuff though. I think Brownells sells Belgium Blue, will have to check it out. I have hot blue tanks set up and operating but will have to replace the salts some day soon. Only using them once or twice a year is a pain and was just thinking of going to a "one tank" blue to simplify life a bit.
I used several such blues in the past, some did OK some, not so good. They do require a bit more work in the doing and are a lot more work when it comes to the small parts. Also I remember having trouble when it came to those small parts. Sometimes what you got wasn't as nice as say a barrel. Holding the heat while applying the solution seemed to be the main problem.

[oldred]

Have you tried Mark Lee Express Blue for rust bluing? I have gotten some excellent results with it recently (and some not so good results on 4140HT steel but that's another story), just finished a Marlin 1895 barrel and an old Stevens 94 shotgun using the Mark Lee blue and it did a great job.

[Reg]

Have you tried Mark Lee Express Blue for rust bluing? I have gotten some excellent results with it recently (and some not so good results on 4140HT steel but that's another story), just finished a Marlin 1895 barrel and an old Stevens 94 shotgun using the Mark Lee blue and it did a great job.


Where can I get it ? Will give it a try.

[oldred]

I buy it from Brownells, I have seen a lot of good reviews on this stuff and my experience with it has been really good with the exception of the ill-fated 4140HT attempt- but then that was a case of rust resistant metal and in no way was it the fault of the product. The gunsmith that first told me about the Mark Lee blue said that of all the formulas he had tried it gave the most consistently streak free finish, streaking has not been a problem at all so far on the projects I have used it for.


http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/express-blue-1-prod8795.aspx#.ULZVzaD3NmQ

[seagiant]

Hi Birch,
I've been using the Pilkington's formula from Brownells. There is alot of info on the Internet from people doing it. Brownells now make their own solution and I might try that next. All are good from what I hear. I went and made a "damp box" so I could get a rust cycle every 3 hours and can finish a project in 2 days now. This consist of a home made wood vertical box with a hot plate in the bottom and a pyrex casserole pan with water heating to creat humidity. Then a 60W bulb 3/4 up the box to kep everything even. Sounds more complicated than it is and I set everthing up in a couple of hours. I then went to a super pet store and bought a temp/ humidity meter like they use for reptiles and I was done. You want about 90 degrees and 85% humidity which is easy to do in the box. You DO NOT want steam as that will ruin everything fast and is what the 60W bulb is for to safe guard against that. Here is a bad pic of a RBH I did and is actually the worst job I've done. I did a BHP that came out so good it looked like the old German Lugars!

[Reg]

oldred,
Guess I should have looked first. Have their latest catalog down on the bench.
Will order in a bottle with next order and give it a try, have a Krag barrel that needs a front sight then reblued. Should be a good tryout for it.
If I can find something that works within reason and is a lot safer than those hot tanks will get rid of the whole setup. I keep it locked up in a small shed out back but still worry about some critter or a grandkid somehow getting in and I do not want to even think what could happen then. It works well but is NASTY stuff.
R

[Mooseman]

I use stump remover "Potassium Nitrate" in a cast iron pot over a burner to nitre blue small Parts.
I have a formula somewhere we used in Florida that was Ammonium nitrate and Lye. It was a beautiful Dark blue .

Rich

[birch]

Thanks everyone for the input. It is greatly appreciated. I have not wanted to try the belgian blue because I have heard that you have to heat the metal consistantly or you get streaks and other types of blemishes. I am really interested in the recipe by Rich. I would like to try the nitrate and lye type recipes, but cant seem to find a ratio or type of ingrediants. For instance, all I can get at the local feed store is nitrate that is 19%. Where can a feller get some 100% lye? Thanks for all the responses.
Casey

[Mooseman]

The Recipe we used was ;

5 pounds 100% sodium Hydroxide (100% Lye)
4 pounds Ammonium Nitrate (Sodium Nitrate may be used instead)
1 gal. Distilled water

This is a very caustic mix that is used in a steel tank only.
The Lye must be pure 100% like "Red Devil" or the kind used for soapmaking
It is for steel bluing only and it will not Blue Winchester 94 Receivers.It works Identical to Brownells Bluing salts.
Temperature range is around 260 to 275 deg F for the boil to blue the parts.

[birch]

Thanks so much mooseman. That is the ticket. Now I just have to hunt this stuff down. I am hoping that a nice deep blue comes from it. Thanks again.

[oldred]

If you are going to go the hot blue route and mix your own chemicals then you do not need to look any farther than your local Wal-Mart. "Drain-Out" brand drain cleaner crystals contain the right ingredients in the right proportions and all that is needed is to add 1 bottle of drain cleaner to each pint of distilled water, I have used this stuff and it honestly seems to work as good as the commercial bluing salts I have in my tank now.

I found a link to a site where this is discussed and I know of several other people who have used it successfully.


http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/41492-Backyard-hot-caustic-bluing


NOW THE WARNING, BE CAREFUL!!!!!!

I cannot stress enough the dangers involved with hot caustic bluing, this stuff WILL seriously hurt or even kill you if you get even a little careless with it! Safety gear is absolutely mandatory when hot bluing since even a small spatter will result in a serious burn, caustic bluing solution will rapidly cause serious chemical burns even when cold and when heated it is much worse. Splattering even a tiny amount in your eyes, cold or hot, WILL result in permanent eye damage and likely blindness, there is no washing it out quickly enough to prevent serious injury since the damage is instantaneous! Even the fumes from the hot solution can be dangerous so proper precautions MUST be taken, home caustic bluing can be done but it is serious business and the hazards are much more so than melting a pot of lead so safety must not be taken lightly.

[Bullshop]

you say one bottle drain cleaner to 1 pint of distilled water.... what size of container for the drain cleaner (never having seen this one - i know other brands come in different sizes) --- too bad it is walmart brand! -- i don't like going there! (i will need to know how many i need to buy - since the store is so far away - i will need to make sure i buy enough)

Tina - BS Mom

[oldred]

As I said earlier I have used this product myself and it is capable of doing an excellent job, metal prep is the key to a good finish. The major difference between the Drain Crystals and commercial salts is the fact that the Drain Cleaner has some Aluminum shavings in it to cause an agitation effect for it's intended purpose of unstopping clogged drains but the Aluminum does not seem to hurt a thing, it actually is consumed in the reaction that occurs when water is added (do this VERY SLOWLY!!). Use distilled water or clean rain water and mix at the ratio of one pint of water to one jug (18 ozs) of the crystals and mix this slowly to prevent an uncontrolled reaction. Be aware that the mixture will react quite violently and while nothing will seem to be happening when first mixed in a few seconds the mixture will start to boil and foam and will boil over unless the container is large enough or the mix is done very slowly. Once the reaction has settled down then the heat can be applied to bring the mix up to the desired boiling point, aim for about 270 to 290 degs which seems to work perfectly with this mixture, then the parts can be lowered into it for about 20 minutes. Remove the parts and immediately rinse in another tank of clear hot water.

I know that sounds like a lot of drain crystals for just a pint of water but it really does take that much and if you use too much water the solution will not get hot enough, once it starts to boil it will not get hotter no matter how much heat you apply until some of the water boils off. The temperature of the boiling solution is controlled by adding water or allowing water to boil off (which it does fairly quickly at these temperatures), if the mix is getting too hot before boiling add water and if it is boiling below the minimum temperature then allow water to boil off but DO NOT add more drain cleaner to the solution!!!!! Also be VERY careful when adding water since adding too much too quickly can cause a steam eruption that will splatter the hot solution in all directions!


This is just a brief description but actually the process is not all that difficult as long as the temperature is kept under control and the parts are perfectly clean but once again safety is of the utmost concern here and things you may not think about could cause an accident so be prepared for the unexpected when using this stuff. An example is the first time I attempted hot bluing I was using a full face shield, rubber gloves, apron and a good respirator to protect against the fumes but not having the proper boots, etc I thought to myself "I will just be extra careful". This was just a small job and the mixture was in a stainless 2 gallon pot with stainless handles, safe enough I told myself. When I finished I picked up the pot to dump the solution into an old fashioned Earthen crock with a locking lid for storage but just as I picked it up I noticed a fizzing and bubbles near the top of the pot. The pot was stainless and it had stainless handles so I was safe right? WRONG! the handles were held in with Aluminum rivets that were sizzling and dissolving away as I held the pot above my legs and feet which were protected only by a pair of jeans and low top shoes, one of the handles came loose on one side just as I set the thing back down! I am telling this to drive home the point about how easy it is to get hurt with this stuff if you get careless, I was lucky that time so I am more careful now. I also remember reading an account of a guy who was killed when he snagged his foot on a cord on the floor which in turn tipped over his tanks splattering the solution on him, he died three days later. I am not trying to scare you off from doing this it's just that close call I had sticks in my mind every time this subject comes up.

Be aware also that I am not a professional and what I described is just what has worked for me, maybe some of the professional gunsmiths here will chime in with more advice and maybe some corrections if needed.



EDIT: I am having second thoughts about the suggestion to add water to the solution to change the ratio for temperature control, I do this but the water is slowly dribbled in very small amounts. Simply pouring water into the hot solution can be dangerous.

[Bullshop]

How do you monitor temp?

[oldred]

Just a cheap candy thermometer from Wal-Mart works just fine, I use a glass one but they have several metal ones that will work. If you get a metal thermometer just make sure it does not have an Aluminum probe because it will simply dissolve off the thing in short order. This is a home-brewed solution using back-yard methods but it really does work quite well, I have a commercial solution now but I really can't tell any difference in the finish between it and the first couple of jobs I did with the drain cleaner. Just remember the actual hot bluing is the easy part in getting a top quality job since metal prep is the real key. The higher the polish the shinier and more professional the job will look but be careful about sanding/polishing off corners, edges and lettering and make SURE there is no oil, wax from buffing compound or other contaminates on the metal prior to dipping in the solution. Hot bluing is much more forgiving of minor surface contamination that rust bluing but still an oil or wax smudge can ruin an otherwise perfect job.

[birch]

I also wonder about the waste. How do I get rid of it? I assume it is safe for septics since it is a drain cleaner, but does the chemical makeup change when it is heated and cured with metal of sorts. I'm hoping a veteran blue man can chime in with disposal and immersion techniques. So far, I am really leaning toward the previous post. That is, I am looking for the least amount of guess work and the best results with the safest outcome.

[birch]

Thanks for posting the detailed safety tips and suggestions for temp and solution ratios. I am sure someone might have read this (me) and figured it was relatively easy to mix 50/50 products. I guess I might let this simmer for a while and really think about whether or not I want to attempt this or leave it to the professionals. I am a pretty safe guy, but boy, with something like this, safe only goes so far. Again, thank you for all the tips and ideas. I have been talking this over with a friend for a few months now. I think I have enough information to make a rational decision based on facts.

[oldred]

I also wonder about the waste. How do I get rid of it?

The solution is indeed simple drain cleaner and nothing toxic is added but there will be a lot of it, quite a bit more than should be disposed of in a closed septic system but should be no problem for a municipal system since that most likely receives this type of waste everyday anyway. The solution is caustic but not necessarily toxic and can be neutralized by adding acid, Brownells sells an acid compound for this purpose along with instructions for doing this but simple dilution will also make it safe for the environment.



I would suggest rust bluing as it is quite easy for the home shop and does a beautiful job that is even more durable than hot caustic bluing. The equipment needed is simple and cheap plus it is MUCH safer, little more dangerous than boiling water, and if one or two jobs is all you need it is just more practical. If you really want caustic bluing and only need to do a couple of items I would strongly recommend sending it out to a pro, unless you have a bunch of parts to do setting up for hot caustic bluing requires so much equipment, expense and safety concerns it's usually not practical. There's a reason that home caustic bluing is not done very much, basically it's an industrial process that involves dangerous chemicals and process plus set-up costs usually far outweigh the costs to have just a couple of guns blued by a pro.

[nekshot]

I like Herters and Pilkingtons solutions. I don,t have to worry about mixing anything, just prepare metal and heat up water and turn on the fan. They have given me fool proof bluing and I am very capable of screwing stuff up depending on pain meds. This stuff is simple for a guy like me.

[oldred]

honestly I think rust bluing is actually easier than cold blue!

[Big Rack]

Mooseman, how well does your potassium Nitrate work, does it have the bright almost irridescent blue to it?
Thanks, Big Rack.

[thehouseproduct]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?113049-Lachmiller-12G-Press&highlight=lachmiller

[trap4570]

Potassium nitrate and caustic soda (red devil lye). Duda Diesel carries both in bulk. Sodium Nitrate works also. I but the caustic soda local at an industrial cleaning supply. Potassium or sodium nitrate I buy at Duda Diesel - no special shipping costs. The above mix sounds good and if your mix starts to boil at 250 degrees - just add more soda - but be careful it reacts violently. Also adding water reacts violently. I use a funnel attached to a iron pipe so I can be away when the water hits. I've been using the same mix for 5 years now and rarely have to add anything. My mix when hot looks like boiling mud but it still does a good job. When bluing nickle steel you can use the Oxinate S to prevent the red color. It is a one time deal and doesn't effect the bath for future use. Try your first blue on some scrap until you get the hang of it.
I might also add - don't attempt to blue anything soldered - they will come apart. Also aluminum is a no-no. I accidently placed a Ruger No#1 trigger in the bath and it was dissolved.

[Awsar]

with things like cerrakote and duracoat and some other good spray on finishes out there today that last way longer and provide better protection for your gun. i dont think i would ever blue a gun again.and yes i have personally blued and spray finished many guns.
but just my 2cents:)

[wrinkles]

This stuff has everything you just add water and heat. Found it at walmart.

55345

55346

[hithard]

This stuff has everything you just add water and heat. Found it at walmart.

55345

55346

How much water, and what temp. for how long?

Thanks

[oldred]

How much water, and what temp. for how long?

Thanks

This was already discussed in detail just a couple of posts back, if you are thinking of doing this then you should read the posts covering it ESPECIALLY the part about safety! This stuff works and does a great job but is VERY dangerous and can do you some really serious harm if you get even the least bit careless with it.

[oldred]

I thought this might be of interest, it's an excellent "how to" on rust bluing which actually produces a better more durable finish than hot caustic bluing plus it's much cheaper and MUCH safer!

http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/Aug03/HowTo.htm

While home caustic bluing can certainly be done safely it's kind of scary thinking about someone experimenting with this stuff using only brief instructions from an internet forum, that's what I did and it nearly caused me a lot of grief! Fellows I don't want to discourage anyone from doing this but there is FAR more to it than just learning how much to mix and how hot to get the solution, what NOT to do is every bit as important as what to do. Not having the mandatory safety gear and approaching this with the "I will just be careful" attitude can easily lead to disaster because when dealing with a boiling hot caustic solution there is no room for mistakes, if something happens it's probably not going to be "oops I won't do that again" it's very possible they may not be able to do that again! The solution will eat through clothes and skin in seconds and eye damage will be instantaneous (even the fumes can hurt you under some circumstances) plus there are storage and disposal problems. Again, this certainly can be done at home and done without incident but it's scary to me when people start asking about things such as how much and how long when they first need to know HOW! For instance it will become necessary to add water occasionally but just pouring water into the hot solution can cause a steam eruption that will splatter the solution everywhere and then there are things that might go unnoticed such as the Aluminum rivets in the pan than nearly caused me a serious accident, these are only some of the things a person needs to know before learning how much and for how long. I strongly recommend anyone not trying hot caustic bluing until they fully understand the hazards involved and how to do this properly, besides if only one or two jobs are needed it's not going to be cost effective anyway.

[birch]

I am interested in more close up pics. Does anyone have any pics of a finished slowrust job?

[Mooseman]

Mooseman, how well does your potassium Nitrate work, does it have the bright almost irridescent blue to it?
Thanks, Big Rack.

It does...Nitre blue is a bright blue !

[oldred]

Nitre blue is definitely a beautiful blue but it is only for small parts that don't receive much wear since it's not nearly as durable as caustic or rust blue. Another thing about using it is that the temperatures it reaches are approaching the tempering range of some heat treated metals so it could have some detrimental effects on heat treated parts.

[edwin41]

maby this is an idea , get a steel pan or something and fill this up with brass chips , like the chips youll get from milling down some
brass casings or so and put your object in the pan . ofcourse all covered with these chips. heat up the pan over a stove or so.
these chips will spread the heat evenly over the entire object . look from time to time if you like the coloring and if you do , quensh it in water or some light oil. ive tried this and really liked the results.
no chemicals involved , and you dont overheat the object .

[oldred]

Again just as with Nitre blue, and even more so with this method, heat treated steels could be adversely affected or even severely weakened. Casehardened soft steels probably would not be harmed unless the heat was allowed to go too high but it could seriously affect through hardened alloy steels like 4140HT and 4150HT, using this method for small non-stressed parts may work great but on something like a revolver cylinder for instance might be dangerous. Heating a heat treated and tempered alloy part to the point that the steel changes to a blue color could wreak havoc with the structural strength!

[gunoholic]

the ammonium nitrate/lye hot black works really well but i like the slow rust blue, the one i use is from roy dunlaps book:
2.5 oz nitric acid
2 oz hydrochloric acid
1 oz wire nails
30 oz distilled water
i made only 1/5th of this because 200mls will last me ages.
outdoors with all the safety gear on mix the two acids, then add the nails, and if you have neighbors only do this on a windy day or you may get a visit from the law, this gives off nasty red fumes, and if what i've read about other nitrating reactions it is highly toxic.
after it stops reacting add the acid to the water and its ready to use.
the link that oldred posted (#37) should work for the rest of the process

[gunoholic]

phosphoric acid works well for removing blue and rust, you'll find it at the hardware or automotive store in the paint section for rust removal, or a hydroponics store as ph down.
and if you coating a "black gun" get some mat black engine enamel, after you oven bake it its real hard and solvent resistant.