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View Full Version : Rolling Block Barrel Fix, how I did it.



oldracer
11-26-2012, 11:53 PM
In my earlier post further down the page I mentioned that the barrel on my 1871 receiver/Badger barrel 45-70 had come loose and mentioned what Doug Knoell, a local national level BPCR competitor (retired, with cancer) and master gunsmith suggested as the fix. I asked for other opinions and got several ranging from a re-machine (not feasible due to costs), using a copper crush washer (both commercial and home made) and a wrap (or two) of copper wire to act as a washer. Doug suggested making a washer of J-B weld after cleaning and measuring everything very well. So here is what I did.

First, was a very good cleaning of the barrel and receiver threads and the shoulders where the barrel sets against.

Second, I coated the barrel thread area with machinists layout blue and let dry.

Third, I screwed in the barrel and snugged it down, but not super tight and then carefully backed it out. I noted that the vertical edges of nearly all the threads and the inner and outer shoulders had blue transfer. About 40 to 45% of the thread flats also had blue transfer so those both told me that threads were well made and confirmed the tight feel of the threaded joint when putting in the barrel.

Fourth, I took the barrel to the best source for shim material and tools in the San Diego area and looked to fine material 0.0046 inches in thickness and this would give me a 20 degree pull up on the barrel. 12 T.P.I = 0.08333/turn, 20 degrees = 1/18 of a revolution, 20 degrees = 0.0046 axial movement or take up. The problem turned out to be the O.D. of the required shim which was less than 1/8 total. So after looking at a couple of gasket cutter sets which were expensive and not being able to guarantee a good cut gasket, I decided to quit this idea.

Fifth, I bought some copper wire, 0.005 inches in diameter and tried that. I wrapped one complete turn and then tried two turns and in both cases the take up was not even and would usually go past the index marks, so I quit that idea.

Sixth, I cleaned everything and tried the J-B weld idea and did as Doug suggested, using some mold release on the receiver and putting a small bead where the outside edge of the barrel threads ended. I already had the receiver mounted in the padded vice with the rear tang vertical as before and screwed in the barrel, stopping at about 20 degrees before take up. I noted that the J-B was pretty much all inside the receiver and not visible. I let it setup for an hour and then tightened the barrel until the top flat was exactly level as the tang in back had not moved. The last 5 degrees were a bugger and the barrel was let to sit over the next 3 days.

Today I went and tried the fix and accuracy is back to what it was. There was no J-B weld leak out and no indication of the barrel coming loose and I pulled the fore stock off and tried to loosen the barrel and it would not budge. So it appears the fix is going to work and I'll have to see if this lasts as long as the last time the barrel was tightened, about 12 to 14 years ago!

As for issues of pressure, there are none as I can see as all the pressure is inside the barrel and the rolling block locks things up just as before. There might be a very slight expand/contract of the barrel due to the black powder ignition and temp changes but I think that steel in the old Badger barrel does not move much? Anyways, if things change I will immediately make a post and note what happens. Whew!

Frank46
11-27-2012, 12:47 AM
I could be mistaken here but think that is one barrel that might not ever come off. Regardless what jumping up and down and uttering nasty words. I had a buddy that used some steel epoxy to repair holes in his muffler. Once it go hot looked like an old 4 stacker doing 30 knots. But the heat eventually burned most if not all of the epoxy. Frank

oldracer
11-27-2012, 01:26 AM
Dammm, I haven't heard that term since I went in the Navy in '65! Most people don't know what a four stacker is probably. Yes I tried patching mufflers and even exhaust manifolds back in the 60s when I started driving! Anyways, I did get some mold release and coat the receiver threads and the compression area like Doug said but so far I have no plans to pull the barrel but that might change some day. Hell it was on there for 12 or 14 years but about 10 of those was just sitting!

John Taylor
11-27-2012, 10:30 AM
Just add a little heat if you ever want to take it off.

M-Tecs
11-27-2012, 11:22 AM
If you have issues with the JB send me your shim stock and I will cut it on the laser. I have .004" and .005" but no .0045"

oldracer
11-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Thanks for the offer to cut the shims. The area where they have to go is really small and the ID has to be exact to fit over the short section butting to the shoulder. The OD has to be just small enough to fit inside the receiver where there is also a shoulder so accuracy would need something like that.

BCRider
11-27-2012, 12:34 PM
I can't see the epoxy being a problem since it's well in there. If at some point it does come loose again due to the epoxy not withstanding the frequent impacts then some extra effort to cut a proper shim would be the way to go. Even to where you would cut the shim, possibly with the aid of M-Tecs cutting, and then make up a jig of some form to hold the shim washer and stone it down from a stock .005 to the .0046 to .0047 you need to get the barrel to lock up at just the right spot with just the right torque.

oldracer
11-27-2012, 02:12 PM
True about the shims. I did find that the barrel has to be exactly where it was originally due to the block and extractor having a very close fit under the barrel where it is cut. Mine may have been off by a part of a degree and I had to stone the bottom of the barrel bevel when I put the gun together and felt drag on the block. Before the looseness it was pretty free and afterwards it had a little drag. I used my wife's large magnifying glass and it showed one corner was barely touching? Funny since the top of the flat and rear tang were lined up just as before? Well that's machinery!

JHeath
11-27-2012, 09:46 PM
I JB'ed the forearm lug on an old side-by-side 12ga. over 30 years ago and it's still holding. Silver solder kept breaking. The gun a worn old Baker Batavia I'd cut to 18-1/2" because of damage to the barrels near the muzzle, so I had little to lose.

Frank46
11-28-2012, 12:54 AM
Oldracer, yep 4 stackers. Actually got to see a couple when I was in the navy. '64 to '67. I had a buddy who served on one and according to him they were very "wet" ships. All riveted seams. Frank

oldracer
11-28-2012, 01:09 PM
Ahhhh, riveted hulls, don't see those much anymore either. Many years ago, the USS Jason, a repair ship, ran aground in Pearl Harbor when returning from a deployment to that island paradise, Diego Garcia! It loosened about a dozen rivets in one side but was able to come back to San Diego okay. Well it was dry docked and the damage assessed and the contract awarded to get the rivets replaced and the hull sealed. Then the area shipyards found out that no one had any riveters any longer so a couple of really old guys were brought back to train some younger guys on how to do this. The hull was repaired and all was well for a fairly large sum of $$$$$ and then shortly after the USS Jason was decommissioned!

Frank46
11-30-2012, 12:00 AM
Seem to remember that we loaned the Brits a bunch during WWII. Lot of old skills were lost when shipyards went to welded hulls. When my ship was stationed at mayport we had a repair ship USS Yellowstone only time I ever saw her sail out was before a hurricane. Since we had a destroyer squadron based there I imagine she was kept busy when ships returned. Used to call her the Jellystone as she probably sat on coffee grounds as she was tied up at the same spot all the time. Frank

Buckshot
11-30-2012, 03:38 AM
Once it go hot looked like an old 4 stacker doing 30 knots. Frank Looks like the thread might be wandering a bit?

..........Engineers might get a nice friendly call from the bridge, but on a 4 stacker the blower with all 4 lit off, has a hard time keeping up :-) Especially if a scuttle in an escape trunk leaks, and yeas they were wet. Round bottoms with no keel, rolled like a barrel! I was stationed at Mayport NS (71 - 73) USS Noa DD-841. IC Electrician 3rd. Deployed to the Indian Ocean, so I too visited the luscious atoll of Diego Garcia. Nothing there at the time but 3,000 Seabees and 1,000 sailors, white sand and coconut palms. Seems the most common activity at night was to get drunk and then have a friendly little fight :-) The can was anchored in the lagoon and the motor whaleboat made it's last trip at midnight. A 1st class Equipment operator said he'd run me out in an amphibious tractor. He ground and ground on it but it wouldn't start. I finally split and made it in time. Good thing too because if he'd gotten it started he'd have probably rammed the ship, and we'd have both sunk! :-)

http://www.fototime.com/1370230C4D518A4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/09B63FD4B429270/standard.jpg

Just a regular ole day for a Destroyerman. Nice calm sea.

.............Buckshot

http://www.fototime.com/1898935F91C260A/standard.jpg

EdZ KG6UTS
12-07-2012, 07:11 PM
Dammm, I haven't heard that term since I went in the Navy in '65!.....!

That close tolerance work fitting the barrel etc would be within an RCH in old Navy machinist terms.

EdZ KG6UTS

oldracer
12-07-2012, 10:40 PM
Whoa, an "RCH" haven't heard that much lately either.........I would imagine in "today's" Navy if you said something like that away you would go??!!

Uncle R.
12-11-2012, 11:56 PM
I always wondered if the red ones were finer or coarser than the blond ones. Can't speak from personal experience - guess I never had a micrometer handy.
<
Uncle R.

bigted
12-18-2012, 02:55 AM
well since the subject is up???RCH is thinest of all CH's and fact is that a friend did the collectin [ was and still am happily married at the time so this was a covert op] and we set around one fine evening [relaxed with the aid of "other" products] with a mic and diagnosed this small anomolli. the RCH was thinner as of the 5 that we had from diff doners .....then the other colors we had to compare with..........happily dont remember the meassurments but do remember the outcome of winners so to speak!

well now that we have the intelect outta the way....... how bout that barrel fix > ?

Col4570
12-18-2012, 06:42 AM
In the Merchant Navy when working to fine limits we called it a gnats Cock.

Tom Herman
12-23-2012, 12:51 AM
Ahhhhh... The RCH! That was also the designation for an old WWII shipboard radio receiver... They had the special, low leakage front end so the radio set wouldn't radiate a signal from its local oscillator back out onto the receiving antenna (kept the U-boats from zeroing in on ships from a distance). I've got at least one sitting here. Really neat radios!
Sounds like the JB Weld will work fine: Paul Harvey would be proud of you!
Happy Shootin'!

-Tom

Beekeeper
12-23-2012, 11:15 AM
Buckshot,
Are you trying to make these landlubbers sea sick.
Showing a normal day at sea on a destroyer would make any Flat Top sailor pretty sick.
Atlantic or Pacific?


beekeeper

oldracer
12-23-2012, 03:53 PM
Well we have drifted off course more than a little it seems! To get back on course, the barrel fix as suggested by Doug Knoell has worked and accuracy has returned to my '71 Rolling Block. All is well with the universe and since the world did not end I can go shoot it tomorrow.

Pavogrande
12-31-2012, 03:19 AM
flat top airdale here -- the squids called it "shore duty" --- CVA10 -