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View Full Version : mystery metal help in ID'ing it.



joebill
11-25-2012, 09:25 PM
Hello, all!
I'm a newby here, and although I have cast a few boolits on and off for years, I have never really made an in-depth study of it like you folks obviously have. I registered hours ago to ask a question, but have been reading a lot of interesting stuff here since then and almost lost track of what I was here for.
Years ago, I traded for about 200# of what was billed as "pewter belt buckles" knowing that if it truly was pewter, it had a lot of tin in it, which is pretty usefull and expensive stuff. I cast some assorted boolits from it and they did fine, except the maxi-balls which were too hard to get down the tube of my 50 cal muzzle-loader. I mostly cast from WW, and have enough to go a looong time without needing more, so I figured if I could really ID this stuff, I could pour it into ingots and take it to a gun show I am doing in a couple of weeks. I have no way of really testing it, but the following are my observations about it, and any hints would be appreiciated.

1. a mold that makes a 230 grain slug from WW makes a 223 grain slug from this stuff.
2. it is malleable enough to allow me to hammer said 45 cal. slug on my anvil to 1/8" thickness before it starts to crack at the lube grooves just like the one from WW metal.
3.Leaves the same gray streak on paper as WW metal when rubbed across it.
4. Makes a truly lovely boolit, so shiney and slick that it looks chrome plated, and by looking closely I can see the tiny mill marks left in it by the tool that made lee's mold. If the mold were mirror finished the slug would be the same.
5. After aging a few days on both ingots it's harder then WW metal by a fair amount. Ingots crushed together in a vise, one from WW metal and the other from mystery metal, the WW ingot suffers almost all the damage.

I am aware that none of this is scientific, and it would be easy to call it "pewter", since that's what I traded for it as, but the title does not always mean what it's supposed to, and I don't want to mislead anybody at the gun show. I know that pewter is often faked and I have never really messed with any of it. I figured if anybody had experience with real modern pewter, they might give me a hint if it acts like the above description. Thanks a lot, in advance.....Joe

JonB_in_Glencoe
11-25-2012, 11:17 PM
Sounds like Pewter to me.
Jon

PS What is the melt temp. ?

joebill
11-25-2012, 11:37 PM
Thanks for the reply. I didn't measure the temp, but I cast at the same temp I did the WW metal. It's a Lee pot, so the numbers don't mean much on the scale. Is the melt temp generally said to be when it first melts or when it first freezes on it's way back to being solid? Both, maybe? I can stick my kiln's thermocouple into the pot and find out, I think. I'll try it tomorrow and report....Joe

runfiverun
11-26-2012, 12:13 AM
are the buckles marked pewter on them?
if so, they are almost pure tin, the melt point would be in the 415-450-f range.
if you bend one of the buckles you will hear it creak and crackle that's the tin nodules popping apart.
if they are marked pewter i'd sell them as is without melting them down...

joebill
11-26-2012, 09:24 PM
No marks on the buckles at all. It was a spin cast company going out of business, thus my skeptical attitude about the formula. I couldn't get an accurate read with the pyrometer, as the heat seemed to vary greatly along the depth of the pot. Tomorrow, I have to use my tempering oven on some steel product, so while it's hot I'll "bake up" a couple of ingots, then keep turning the heat down until they get mushy. That should provide an accurate melting temp. Again, thanks to all for the info.......joe

I'll Make Mine
11-26-2012, 10:40 PM
Given that pewter is roundly 90% to 95% tin, and tin is about half the density of lead, if those buckles were genuinely pewter, they'd cast about 125(ish) grains in that 230 grain .45 mold. If they were zinc, they'd be closer to 170-180 grains, less silvery, and harder than wheel weights right out of the mold. For the weight you're getting, those have to be only slightly lower lead content than wheel weights. Age hardening suggests antimony and arsenic, but the brightness suggests less antimony than your wheel weight alloy (possibly more tin instead -- I find clip-on wheel weights give a more "matte" surface on my ingots than the higher lead content stick-on weights).

I'm pretty confident what you have isn't what is now labeled as pewter; you might see if a local scrap yard can do a scan analysis for you (takes a few seconds, if they have the machine and are willing to do it). That would tell you within a fraction of a percent the top four or five metals present...

jfischer
11-27-2012, 12:46 AM
My 230 45 acp cast right around 160 to 165 with scrap pewter.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

JonB_in_Glencoe
11-27-2012, 11:32 AM
...and tin is about half the density of lead, if those buckles were genuinely pewter, they'd cast about 125(ish) grains in that 230 grain .45 mold.
I disagree with this statement



My 230 45 acp cast right around 160 to 165 with scrap pewter.

+1

I have cast known 99%+ Tin in a Lee 250gr REAL mold, they are 169gr.

joebill
11-27-2012, 09:34 PM
OK, I got a good test on the melting point today, and it's 500 F. give or take not much, because I had one of those cob tray molds in the tempering oven and I know the oven thermometer is very close to correct. Some of the ingots were mushy and some liquid at that temperature, so it's a close reading.
I have to assume that the spin-cast outfit I got these from saw themselves slipping beneath the waves and decided to start subbing lead for tin. They ARE the slickest, shineyest, hardest boolits I have ever cast, by far, so I guess what I have here is just metal to use as-is or to add to WW metal as a hardner and to make it fill the mold better. If that is a false assumtion, I'd like to hear about it from a more experienced hand than myself so feel free to jump in. If my assumption sounds right, I'd like to thank all those who helped me arrive at it, and also thank everyone for the treasure chest of information y'all have made available here.....Joe

JonB_in_Glencoe
11-28-2012, 11:53 AM
If your alloy is only tin and Lead, to acheive a melt temp of about 500ºF
your alloy would be about 90%Pb, 10%Sn
according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder
and using a C to F converter.

But if there are other metals in there...WHO Knows ?
Jon

runfiverun
11-28-2012, 07:41 PM
you'd also be able to bend them [the buckles] quite easily if they are 10% tin.
body lead is 20-30% tin and i can tie a rod of it into a pretzle.
10% tin 90% lead is what rcbs uses for rifle boolits btw.

Defcon-One
11-28-2012, 08:09 PM
I read your first post and based on hardness and shine/fill characteristics I thought Linotype. Then you report a melting temp of around 500 and I still think Linotype.

Could your buckles be made of Typemetal?

The only way to know for sure is to shoot it with an XRF test gun or take a trip to a Laboratory.

joebill
11-30-2012, 11:23 PM
Well, This ain't the first spin-caster I have seen go down for the count, and most of them would be willing to pour and sell most anything right before the end. Since we have pretty much arrived at the fact that it's not tin-rich enough to bring big bucks at the gun show and since it makes more than passable boolits, I guess my best bet is to make boolits from it as long as I can and let the rest of it sell, eventually, at the estate sale ;-). I have been tripping over it for almost a decade so I might as well melt it into ingots and stack it out of the way. Again, guys, thanks for everything, and I think I'll hang around here a bit longer. This place is somewhat of a hoot!....Joe

SlippShodd
12-02-2012, 12:37 PM
Again, guys, thanks for everything, and I think I'll hang around here a bit longer. This place is somewhat of a hoot!....Joe

Somewhat?!?

joebill
12-03-2012, 02:37 PM
Understatement is a habit of mine. Anything screamed at the top of one's lungs while jumping up and down with wings flapping tends to be discounted by those around him....Joe