Lead rings in chambers...

[bones37]

I've been having an ongoing issue with lead rings inside the chambers of two different 44 mag chambered revolvers. The rings are just forward of the 44 mag case and sometimes up into the leade just before the actual throat of the cylinder. I tried water dropping the boolits to harden, different powders, etc., but no luck. I am loading to duplicate a mid range 44 special up to about 950 fps. Oh and FYI, I have fired these same loads out of two OTHER 44 mag revolvers that are owned by a co worker with no leading anywhere at all. Is it possible that I have two revolvers that the chambers/leade/ were cut incorrectly or rough? Your opinions and/or thoughts would be appreciated.

bones37

[williamwaco]

I have owned around a dozen .44 Mags and 3 .44 specials over the years. I have never seen or heard of the problem you are describing.

It seems unlikely you could have two handguns with 12 faulty chambers.

I suspect you are shaving rings of lead from your bullet during the seating/crimping procedure and they are being left behind when the cartridge is fired.

.


.

[montana_charlie]

Are you using 44 Special cases in magnum chambers? Lead rings in the front of a chamber with a step-down transition is a sign of 'short brass'.

CM

[runfiverun]

sounds like you have a ruger.
they hav a tendancy to cut their cylinder chambers a bit long.
look for a thread by grey wolf sam is having the same problem, there is a good chamber drawing in that thread which shows how things should be and some ideas how others deal with the issue.

[curator]

I get lead rings with both 9mm and 40S&W Glock handguns (Wolf barrels) which I assume to be from sharp leades or throats in front of the chambers. Of course, my problem is with semi-autos not revolvers but probably caused by the same thing. Brass case mouths do not fit tight against the end of the chamber allowing lead to shave off the bullet.

[btroj]

Sure it is lead and not carbon fouling? Carbon will build up right at the end of the case. It can also be a bugger to get rid of.

[bones37]

I have owned around a dozen .44 Mags and 3 .44 specials over the years. I have never seen or heard of the problem you are describing.

It seems unlikely you could have two handguns with 12 faulty chambers.

I suspect you are shaving rings of lead from your bullet during the seating/crimping procedure and they are being left behind when the cartridge is fired.

I tried two other revolvers that a co worker owned, they did not exibit this problem at all with same ammunition.


.


Are you using 44 Special cases in magnum chambers? Lead rings in the front of a chamber with a step-down transition is a sign of 'short brass'.
It is 44 mag brass
CM


sounds like you have a ruger.
they hav a tendancy to cut their cylinder chambers a bit long.
look for a thread by grey wolf sam is having the same problem, there is a good chamber drawing in that thread which shows how things should be and some ideas how others deal with the issue.
A ruger new model super blackhawk and a Smith 629-6.

I get lead rings with both 9mm and 40S&W Glock handguns (Wolf barrels) which I assume to be from sharp leades or throats in front of the chambers. Of course, my problem is with semi-autos not revolvers but probably caused by the same thing. Brass case mouths do not fit tight against the end of the chamber allowing lead to shave off the bullet.
The ends of the chambers have a pronounced step to them, and yes the brass does not fit tight against the ends of the chambers.

Sure it is lead and not carbon fouling? Carbon will build up right at the end of the case. It can also be a bugger to get rid of.
I am certain that it is lead.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?

What are you sizing the bullets at?

Larry Gibson

[gray wolf]

My post has fallen off the page, I think it's on page two now. Here is what I said in my last post that no one responded two ( No problem, but I thought my observations were good )
And yes I have the same exact problem. My pistol is at Ruger now, and Bones and I have spoken on the phone about our problem.
See if this observation makes sense.


QUOTE from Lamar
the issue really is that the chambers are cut too long,ruger is pretty famous for doing that.
it is a safety thing too, as it acts like a marlin/contender.weatherbys' throat [freebore] does and gives the initial gas someplace to go while the pressure is rising.


OK, hear is my thought and I want to know if this could be a possible error on Rugers part. I don't want to post all the numbers cause it gets confusing--to me anyway.
The Max case length for the 44 mag is 1.285 --the case rim thickness on average seems to be .055 --that means that 1.230 of actual case is in the chamber.
1.230 + .055 gives us 1.285 when I seated my bullets backwards in the case as in my Pics. I was .150 short of the beginning of the throat. Meaning the front band would have to be .150 thick to get into the taper and close to the throat.
.100 for the front band + .050 additional that it's short
So here is my thought since the case head is .055 thick. I think when they cut the chamber they used the full length of the case, case head and all. well the case head don't go in the chamber, so that measurement would make the chamber .055 to long.
Factor in the taper before the throat and a little buffer for someone with extra long cases
say an extra .010 and there is no way that front band is going in the throat.
Specially if the case is trimmed say .005 to 1.275
I think the chamber should be cut to 1.230 + .005 for a ***** extra long case and no taper, or at least very little. if the bullet goes into the throat whats the need for the taper ? I think this would make an ideal cast bullet shooter. But in an effort to make a one size fits all chamber they made them to long + what it says in the quote above. This is what I may say to Ruger when I speak to them
Am I all wet here ? any other thought on what I said. ( if you can understand it )
Makes sense to me.

[Mal Paso]

Only 1 of my 44s (Anaconda) has cylinders where the front band will enter the throat and only with the MP 432256. Both Mold Makers and Gun Makers see this as a Problem and have tried to avoid it. If the bullet is larger than the throat, the round won't chamber. The Lyman 429421 was severely modified to avoid this problem. My Ruger and Smith Chambers are so long you would need special boolits or brass to get the front band into the throat.

My 629 had .428 Throats and a .429 Groove and had dismal accuracy with 44 Specials until I reamed the Throats. They are .431 now and I size the Boolits to just push through the Throats. The slight tooling marks left by the reamer don't seem to hurt a thing and accuracy is Great.

I have watched grey wolf's thread with interest and don't have any input other than. It's unusual to have the Boolit front band in the throat in a Revolver and I've never had your problem even with tight throats.

Please Keep us updated!

[gray wolf]

There seem to be so many variables that can change things,
bullet to hard - to soft, lube, shape of bullet, length of driving band or full bore diameter,
how the chamber is cut, how the bullet sits in the chamber,
does the bullet slump in the chamber ?
bullet should fit in the throat--bullet don't have to reach the throat.
load used, powder used. fit the throats--don't fit the throats.
Use 50/50 Pb WW--water drop--don't water drop-and on, and on, and on.
Bullets should enter the throat when loading, Well what is correct ?
Seems we all do little work a-rounds to fix our own little individual problems.
I have looked high and low and can't seem to find a SAAMI speck drawing of a 44 mag cylinder with dimensions. I can't believe chambers are cut willy/nilly on a whim.

[cbrick]

I too have watched his thread with interest. For me all of my front driving bands are inside the throats when the round is chambered due in no small part I'm sure to my being a fan of heavy for caliber bullets and a full width front band (thank you Elmer). I size to a mild snug fit in the throats so they will chamber without issues. This is true of my 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt etc., the only real exceptions for me are rarely used bullets in 44 Spec, 38 Spec.

It will be interesting to see what Ruger has to say, they may well say it's within their specs. If it is a long chamber (short throat) and they say it's fine I wouldn't be a happy camper. If as Mal Paso says the revolver makers do it on purpose I couldn't say but the cure isn't long chambers, it's as simple as properly sized bullets in a properly dimensioned throat with a matching groove diameter.

Rick

[gray wolf]

It will be interesting to see what Ruger has to say, they may well say it's within their specs. If it is a long chamber (short throat) and they say it's fine I wouldn't be a happy camper. If as Mal Paso says the revolver makers do it on purpose I couldn't say but the cure isn't long chambers, it's as simple as properly sized bullets in a properly dimensioned throat with a matching groove diameter.

Rick


very well said Rick,
IMHO we compensate for or when things are done wrong.
When things are done correctly there is hardly a need to compensate.

[BRobertson]

My only observation after reading all of this , is that I am amazed that some of our guns shoot as well as they do!!

I will be very interested to see what Ruger has to say about it!!

Thanks for all the info!!!!

Bob

[bones37]

What alloy?

What are you sizing the bullets at?

Larry Gibson
Clip on wheel weights sized to .432" for the ruger.

I too have watched his thread with interest. For me all of my front driving bands are inside the throats when the round is chambered due in no small part I'm sure to my being a fan of heavy for caliber bullets and a full width front band (thank you Elmer). I size to a mild snug fit in the throats so they will chamber without issues. This is true of my 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt etc., the only real exceptions for me are rarely used bullets in 44 Spec, 38 Spec.

It will be interesting to see what Ruger has to say, they may well say it's within their specs. If it is a long chamber (short throat) and they say it's fine I wouldn't be a happy camper. If as Mal Paso says the revolver makers do it on purpose I couldn't say but the cure isn't long chambers, it's as simple as properly sized bullets in a properly dimensioned throat with a matching groove diameter.

Rick
I can tell you what Smith told me on the phone this morning, they told me that if I shoot cast that there would be deposits in the chambers, and for me to clean it out. I then asked why my older smith revolvers were clean from lead rings in the chambers, their response was the chambers are cut differently than older models.

My only observation after reading all of this , is that I am amazed that some of our guns shoot as well as they do!!

I will be very interested to see what Ruger has to say about it!!

Thanks for all the info!!!!

Bob

Actually, both shoot very well, but after several rounds are fired, it becomes difficult to chamber fresh rounds due to the build up in the end of chambers.

[runfiverun]

we need to remember also that the factory's are covering thier bases.
some guy's wanna use a heavier jaxketed bullet and there has to be room for them too.
a 315gr bullet over a load of h-110 is a bit different than what we are talking about.

[243winxb]

Back off on the crimp, you might be shaving some lead on seating the bullets. Or crimp in a separate operation as a test. Dont use a Lee factory crimp die.
Clip on wheel weights sized to .432" for the ruger.
Try sizing to .430" its standard for lead in a 44mag. Add linotype. Air cool.

[gray wolf]

Back off on the crimp, you might be shaving some lead on seating the bullets. Or crimp in a separate operation as a test. Don't use a Lee factory crimp die.
Not the issue, I have tried bullets with no crimp.
The Ruger manual states:
Some lead bullets may lead the barrel, forcing cone, cylinders and or throats. SOME ? well ruger please tell me what the other some are. the some that don't lead the barrel, forcing cone, cylinders and or throats.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to the COWWs and size at .430 as suggested. The "leading you see in the Ruger may be antimony not lead. That would/could be caused by too little tin in the COWWs you are using. AC the bullets and let age 7-10 days before use. Also use a good softer lube like BAC orLars NRA formula.

Larry Gibson

[bones37]

we need to remember also that the factory's are covering thier bases.
some guy's wanna use a heavier jaxketed bullet and there has to be room for them too.
a 315gr bullet over a load of h-110 is a bit different than what we are talking about.
You're exactly right, but I am only using the accurate 43-250K. I suppose I should look for an older gun, whether it be a smith or ruger.

Back off on the crimp, you might be shaving some lead on seating the bullets. Or crimp in a separate operation as a test. Dont use a Lee factory crimp die. Try sizing to .430" its standard for lead in a 44mag. Add linotype. Air cool.
I've crimped in a seperate operation, I didn't crimp at all, and I'm not using lee dies for this caliber. I've tried .429", .430", 431", 432" and I've air cooled and water dropped with no change. As for the linotype, I don't have any to add...

[bones37]

Not the issue, I have tried bullets with no crimp.
The Ruger manual states:
Some lead bullets may lead the barrel, forcing cone, cylinders and or throats. SOME ? well ruger please tell me what the other some are. the some that don't lead the barrel, forcing cone, cylinders and or throats.

This is exactly what Rugers customer service rep. told me on the phone today, that it was "normal" for their to be lead deposits/rings inside the chambers and/or barrels when using any type of lead ammunition. Funny thing is my barrel is as clean as can be. The only thing that leads up is the area right in front of the casing, inside the chamber. You would think that it would lead other parts of the gun as well.

[Mal Paso]

Here You Go.

54629

[Mal Paso]

I can tell you what Smith told me on the phone this morning, they told me that if I shoot cast that there would be deposits in the chambers, and for me to clean it out. I then asked why my older smith revolvers were clean from lead rings in the chambers, their response was the chambers are cut differently than older models.

Wow! I've seen several late model 629s with tight throats and don't think it's accidental, I think it's for J-words which must be a bigger market. Being off .001" in this day and age is really sloppy and SAAMI Spec for the 44 Mag Throat is .4325". My 629 throats were .628"-.6285".

[bones37]

Wow! I've seen several late model 629s with tight throats and don't think it's accidental, I think it's for J-words which must be a bigger market. Being off .001" in this day and age is really sloppy and SAAMI Spec for the 44 Mag Throat is .4325". My 629 throats were .628"-.6285".

Thank You, Sir for the pic in post #22. I also think You are correct that the chambers are being cut for j-words on the newer revolvers.

[gray wolf]

Yes thank you for the diagram, it shows .432 throats -- I can live with that.
My question was and still is: what is the actual length of the chambers ? the picture shows 1.285, that's the length of the case, But the case head does not go into the cylinder.
If they cut the chamber 1.285 it seems the chamber will be the thickness of the case head to long. So if the case head is .060 thick wont the chamber be cut .060 to long?
making the front band on the bullet to far away from the throat.
Shouldn't the hole in the cylinder be cut minus the case head since it does not enter the cylinder. That would make the length of the hole in the cylinder 1.225
1.225 + .060 for the case head is 1.285
Let me add this. If I had a case that was full length 1.285 and a .100 front band
I would still be .035 to .040 away from the throat, and that would be to reach it, Some may say it's in the throat, but if the throat is tapered ( bigger in the beginning ) the bullet still ain't seated in it.
it still would not be into the throat. I hope I am not missing something here.
And I will say one more thing : if I seat a 429421 SWC long, remove some case flare so it will chamber. I then keep seating the bullets slowly until I feel resistance indicating I am in the throat
the end of the bullet is sticking 1/8 inch out of the face of the cylinder, and that don't sound right to me. Did I miss something ?
I think having the throats tapered
( bigger in the back adds to this problem ) I don't think it's possible to shoot a 429421 or any bullet with a .100 front band
and expect it to seat in the cylinder throat. That means it will always lay down in the chamber, and always crash into the throat,
So naturally it will shave lead. I don't think powder, bullet speed,
crimp, bullet hardness, or even bullet size to a degree has anything to do with this lead ring after the case mouth.
My feeling is we are chasing our tails down a Rabbit hole trying to compensate for something we have no control over, and in this case that is a bullet that can't be loaded into the cylinder throat.
If I/we have to shoot rock hard bullets and load them like jacketed bullets sized .429--.430 that's another band aid for a problem we didn't create.

[Mal Paso]

Having the front band in the throat is a great idea. My Anaconda was the only gun with short enough chambers to do that with mid-weight Boolits. The Lyman 429421 with it's reduced front band wouldn't reach but Elmer's last, the #503 is just in the throat.

To Gun and Ammo manufacturers Fit is King. The Ammo has to Fit in the Hole(s) provided. Period. That's why Mold Makers altered Elmer Keith's Bullet Designs and Chambers are Long. cbrick worked at getting his fit. I don't think your cylinders are longer than spec. Maybe the throat transition or chamber diameter is the cause of the leading. About .005" clearance is allowed around the bullet with the case expanded under ignition. Too much or little, gas cutting? If the lead is really stuck it was melted by hot gas. The other thing is usually the Source of the problem is upstream of where the problem shows up.

Best of Luck, Let us know.

If it's important to you and a Cylinder was offered in 44 Special it wouldn't be hard cut the chamber length you want. There also are 445 super mag cases (Starline) that can be cut down.

[cbrick]

If the lead is really stuck it was melted by hot gas.

That's really doubtful. Lead absorbs heat slowly and the millisecond the lead is exposed to the heat of burning gas cannot melt it. That's an old wives tale about why gas checks work.

If lead could melt from the powder burning why doesn't plastic (much lower melting point) shotgun wads melt or cardboard shotgun wads burn?

Rick

[Mal Paso]

Rick has more experience than me and I'm guessing at what might be happening but.

There is certainly enough energy in 44 Mag to gas cut grooves in stainless steel, in the cylinder gap and top strap. I've got proof. I think the gas has to be moving fast past the material to dump enough heat into it to melt it. The gas next to the cardboard is fairly static. Before I achieved Boolit fit, the leading I got was Bonded to the barrel. The few bits I get now knock out with a brush.

[bones37]

That's really doubtful. Lead absorbs heat slowly and the millisecond the lead is exposed to the heat of burning gas cannot melt it. That's an old wives tale about why gas checks work.

If lead could melt from the powder burning why doesn't plastic (much lower melting point) shotgun wads melt or cardboard shotgun wads burn?

Rick
I've often wondered why the wads didn't melt or burn, considering all my life being told that lead boolits "lead" the barrel, and the same person turn around after quoting this and load up a .22 rimfire(with lead boolits and no gas check) and shoot it repeatedly. LOL

Rick has more experience than me and I'm guessing at what might be happening but.

There is certainly enough energy in 44 Mag to gas cut grooves in stainless steel, in the cylinder gap and top strap. I've got proof. I think the gas has to be moving fast past the material to dump enough heat into it to melt it. The gas next to the cardboard is fairly static. Before I achieved Boolit fit, the leading I got was Bonded to the barrel. The few bits I get now knock out with a brush.

Mal, I don't know what's causing the lead to stick, but let me tell ya, its a real booger to clean out. A standard bronze bore brush just barely cuts it. Ask graywolf, he will say the same thing. Oh and here is the CRAZY thing about it all, my barrel stays clean and lead free.

[gray wolf]

Ask gray wolf, he will say the same thing. Oh and here is the CRAZY thing about it all, my barrel stays clean and lead free.
Yes I confirm it, my barrel and forcing cone are an easy cleanup,
NOT the cylinders, The lead ring just after the case mouth is tenacious and it just about laughs at a Lewis lead remover, chore boy is about as ineffective.
Ya just expect a guy to spend 2 hours cleaning a cylinder and at best get it 75% done.

[BLTsandwedge]

For what it's worth, I had the same problem in a S&W 625. In my case, the throats pinned out at between .4525" and .453". Bhn on the range scrap and water dropped #452389s (that rather old, discontinued 185g button-nose wadcutter) was/is 10- atop of 4.1g Clays. The obvious answer (for my circumstances) was to size to .454. Sure enough, no more throat leading. Before and after the revolver was/is more accurate than I'll ever be- and the leading was present only in the throats.

[Mal Paso]

If the Chamber is too large, does enough gas get past the Boolit to melt a bit of the edge?

Gas cutting on my 629 started on the outside edge of the cylinder/top of the rear end of the barrel. I think they rounded the edge of the cylinder too much in finishing and narrowed the face of the gap enough for cutting to start. The gap was .006 and the channel cut to a certain depth and stopped/slowed. There are threads in the Smith & Wesson Forum.

Could the Chamber Leading be from microscopic metal spray in the hot gas that gets past the boolit?

bones37 Take some loaded rounds and put a piece of .001"-.002" tape around the top of the case where the bullet is inside, careful not to overlap etc. See if they will chamber. See if they lead. I just tried it with .002" cheap office tape in my Ruger's .460" chambers. You can tell I'm hooked, I bought Pin Gauges.

[bones37]

If the Chamber is too large, does enough gas get past the Boolit to melt a bit of the edge?

Gas cutting on my 629 started on the outside edge of the cylinder/top of the rear end of the barrel. I think they rounded the edge of the cylinder too much in finishing and narrowed the face of the gap enough for cutting to start. The gap was .006 and the channel cut to a certain depth and stopped/slowed. There are threads in the Smith & Wesson Forum.

Could the Chamber Leading be from microscopic metal spray in the hot gas that gets past the boolit?

bones37 Take some loaded rounds and put a piece of .001"-.002" tape around the top of the case where the bullet is inside, careful not to overlap etc. See if they will chamber. See if they lead. I just tried it with .002" cheap office tape in my Ruger's .460" chambers. You can tell I'm hooked, I bought Pin Gauges.

I will give that a try this afternoon when I get home from work, sounds like an interesting experiment.

[btroj]

If it is a ring of stuff that is difficult to remove at the end of the case then much of that isn't lead. I find that most of it is carbon. And it is really tough to remove.

I have used 0000 steel wool on an old brush spun in a drill. I have also used a case that was flared excessively and is a very snug fit in the chamber to knock some of it out. I have tried about every solvent I can think of to soaking and get it gone. Best so far is steel wool on an old brush run dry.

I get this in my GP100 all the time shooting 38s.

I really don't think lead is a big component in my case, I never see shiny lead in what comes out when I really scrub it.

[beagle]

I'm interested to see what Ruger has to say as well so I'll be following this thread.

I had the same problem in a Ruger BH 9mm convertible. Have never had it in my .44 Mags though.

In the 9mm, I was tinkering with sizing diameters and tried .356, .3575, .358 and .3585. The bullet was Lyman's 358480HP and I was seating them out as far as I could and still chamber. Seems as if I was using Red Dot. I was continually getting lead rings(and these were lead) at the case mouth. Some of them stayed in the chamber and some came out with the case. After a couple of cylinders, I'd have to take a bronze brush and push them out from the front of the cylinder or I couldn't load. Natrually I started messing with diameters and seating dept and finally found that using a .3575" sized bullet and a deeper seating depth, it pretty much went away. I still get the occasional ring but it's to the point where I can live with it.

Now, this is the 9mm versus the .44 Magnum and naturally headspace problems come into play with the 9mm versus the .44 Magnum.

I've always thought that Ruger's throating was the cause. I have never had the problem on the .45 ACP convertible or the .30 Carbine BH.

The 9mm chamber is a wonder to me anyway. Here we're taking a bullet of some diameter which a lot of reloading manuals say can run from .355" on up, loading it in a case and taper crimping and having it seat in a chamber. Then we fire it through a cylinder with throats that run as high as .3586", through a forcing cone and supposedly through a .358" barrel and we expect good accuracy???

It's a wonder they do as well as they do.

From my experiences, I'm betting on the throating being off./beagle

[fouronesix]

Could the Chamber Leading be from microscopic metal spray in the hot gas that gets past the boolit?

It can also be described as colloidal lead suspended in a plasma gas that is also carried behind the bullet- the lead may come from a tight crimp lip at the case mouth, scoured by a rough entry into the throat or by gas erosion.

I think that is very close to the mechanism for the leading seen in revolver throats (and for that matter forcing cones and bore entry rifling). That mixture of lead and/or carbon as btroj posted has always been a bugger for extended shot strings in revolvers. How to minimize it is the question.

[cbrick]

If the Chamber is too large, does enough gas get past the Boolit to melt a bit of the edge?

Gas cutting on my 629 started on the outside edge of the cylinder/top of the rear end of the barrel.

Could the Chamber Leading be from microscopic metal spray in the hot gas that gets past the boolit?

Perhaps the confusion comes from mixing the two terms, melting and gas cutting. They are two different things.

Melting is from the lead getting hot enough to melt just as it does in your lead pot. Even when you do a lot of shooting on a very hot day and your firearm is really hot to the touch it is still hundreds of degrees below the melting point of lead, even a very high Sn alloy.

Gas cutting isn't melting the lead but rather high pressure gases finding a leak point and blowing past the bullet stripping material away.

Microscopic metal spray as you used this term in your post could be a possibility but would be gas cutting, not melting.

It is extremely doubtful that you could get your firearm hot enough to melt lead.

Rick

[Mal Paso]

I'm thinking the gas speed would be critical. The available supply of gas controlled by the gap. The vulnerable spots on the bullet would be the sharp edges where exposure is maximum and adjacent lead to absorb the heat is minimum.

And yes I think what we are talking about is plasma cutting.

[montana_charlie]

My question was and still is: what is the actual length of the chambers ?
Your question is on the right track, but it needs to ask: what is the difference between the length of the case and the depth of the chamber?

According to the diagram, the case is 1.285" long while the chamber is 1.3083" deep.

Whether you measure from the front of the rim, or the surface with the headstamp, the 'difference' is still over 20 thousandths.

If you also use a trim-to-length of (say) '.020" under max' as a safety margin, your case is 40 thousandths shorter than the chamber.

That is a zone in the chamber in front of the case mouth ... and behind the 'step' where the throat begins ... which is a trap for scraping lead rings off of cast bullets when they bump up to fill it.
That is a void which is as long as 'the difference' and as deep as the case wall thickness.

The very same 'mismatch' affects BPCR rifles, and causes leading in the chamber, or 'paper rings' in the chamber when paper patched bullets are used.
The 'cure' in those rifles is matching case length to chamber depth.

CM

[Reloader06]

Montana Charlie beat me to it. Good job!

Matt

[gray wolf]

CM --this is what I have been trying to say, plus the taper in the chambers after the case mouth has tool marks, little rings and I think it's compounding the problem acting like a cheese grater.


According to the diagram, the case is 1.285" long while the chamber is 1.3083" deep..0233 to be exact,

Whether you measure from the front of the rim, or the surface with the head stamp, the 'difference' is still over 20 yes, so far we are in sink .0233thousandths.

If you also use a trim-to-length of (say) '.020" under max' as a safety margin, your case is 40 thousandths shorter than the chamber. My cases are 1.270 that's .015 short of 1.285
That is a zone in the chamber in front of the case mouth ... and behind the 'step' where the throat begins ... right on, and that's the place the lead rings form which is a trap for scraping lead rings off of cast bullets when they bump up to fill it.and the tool marks in that area don't help any.
That is a void which is as long as 'the difference' and as deep as the case wall thickness.
The very same 'mismatch' affects BPCR rifles, and causes leading in the chamber, or 'paper rings' in the chamber when paper patched bullets are used.
The 'cure' in those rifles is matching case length to chamber depth.Pleas note I have said : if I seat a bullet backwards it is .150 out of the case before I can feel it bump into the throat. So a bullet with a .100 front band is still .050 short of the throat and just up to the taper in front of the case, when the bullet exits the case it smacks right into the taper before the throat. So how long must the case be ? or do I need a custom bullet with maximum nose length like a LBT LFN
and a full .432 way out on the nose ? if it's because of the chamber being cut long the only other thing is a much longer case, but how mush longer ? and at what place should the case mouth end ? I spoke with the man at starline and he said there cases are 1.270 to 1.275 not much better than I have now. I could cut down some 445 super mag but that's about .300 of trimming. I only have a hand trimmer. The last part of the riddle is this, how do people shoot 44 Special that are .225 shorter and not have this lead ring ? .

Thank you CM and everyone else.

[montana_charlie]

So how long must the case be ?
My experience lies with black powder charges in 45/90 chambers, which are presumed to be 2.4 inches deep.
In actuallity, most are 2.410", and most new cases are as much as 10 thousandths shorter than the supposed 2.4".

So, it's typical to have a 20 thousandths mismatch before you even fireform the cases to the chamber or pick a bullet.

The most uniform cure for chamber leading caused by 'short brass' is to use cases meant for a longer cartridge and trim them back ... or stretch the cases to match chamber depth.

In the case of a .44 Magnum revolver, I can't see a method for getting (or making) longer cases.
So, I would probably run a 'throat reamer' into the chamber to change that sharp 'step' into a low angled 'ramp' ... or change it to a straight cylindrical hole with no 'throat' (as such) at all.

It would be like the chamber mouths in a Colt Walker .44, but with fixed ammunition instead of powder and ball.

Such a modification might work well for cast bullets, but would probably be a bad idea for jacketed stuff.

CM

[cbrick]

In the case of a .44 Magnum revolver, I can't see a method for getting (or making) longer cases. CM

445 Super Mag brass is just the ticket, Starline makes it. And 414 Super Mag and DW 360.

Here's tip for you Mr wolf. You MUST be sure the brass fits in the chamber and none of the longer brass fits into the throat. If a crimped round is chambered and the end of the brass (the crimp) is inside the throat the crimp cannot open to release the bullet. Could build serious pressure. As an example, say your chamber is 1.295", make certain the brass is no more than 1.292" or so. You must also be sure to check that the brass did not grow when fired or sized. The crimped brass must not fit into the throat.

Rick

[bones37]

If it is a ring of stuff that is difficult to remove at the end of the case then much of that isn't lead. I find that most of it is carbon. And it is really tough to remove.

I have used 0000 steel wool on an old brush spun in a drill. I have also used a case that was flared excessively and is a very snug fit in the chamber to knock some of it out. I have tried about every solvent I can think of to soaking and get it gone. Best so far is steel wool on an old brush run dry.

I get this in my GP100 all the time shooting 38s.

I really don't think lead is a big component in my case, I never see shiny lead in what comes out when I really scrub it.
I hear what You are saying, but believe me, it IS lead...oh but how I wish it were only carbon.

I'm interested to see what Ruger has to say as well so I'll be following this thread.Beagle, I haven't had much luck with Ruger on this issue, however Graywolf might.

I had the same problem in a Ruger BH 9mm convertible. Have never had it in my .44 Mags though.

In the 9mm, I was tinkering with sizing diameters and tried .356, .3575, .358 and .3585. The bullet was Lyman's 358480HP and I was seating them out as far as I could and still chamber. Seems as if I was using Red Dot. I was continually getting lead rings(and these were lead) at the case mouth. Some of them stayed in the chamber and some came out with the case. After a couple of cylinders, I'd have to take a bronze brush and push them out from the front of the cylinder or I couldn't load. Natrually I started messing with diameters and seating dept and finally found that using a .3575" sized bullet and a deeper seating depth, it pretty much went away. I still get the occasional ring but it's to the point where I can live with it.

Now, this is the 9mm versus the .44 Magnum and naturally headspace problems come into play with the 9mm versus the .44 Magnum.

I've always thought that Ruger's throating was the cause. I have never had the problem on the .45 ACP convertible or the .30 Carbine BH.

The 9mm chamber is a wonder to me anyway. Here we're taking a bullet of some diameter which a lot of reloading manuals say can run from .355" on up, loading it in a case and taper crimping and having it seat in a chamber. Then we fire it through a cylinder with throats that run as high as .3586", through a forcing cone and supposedly through a .358" barrel and we expect good accuracy???

It's a wonder they do as well as they do.

From my experiences, I'm betting on the throating being off./beagle
I've been saying that the throating angles were off from the start, but I could be wrong

My experience lies with black powder charges in 45/90 chambers, which are presumed to be 2.4 inches deep.
In actuallity, most are 2.410", and most new cases are as much as 10 thousandths shorter than the supposed 2.4".

So, it's typical to have a 20 thousandths mismatch before you even fireform the cases to the chamber or pick a bullet.

The most uniform cure for chamber leading caused by 'short brass' is to use cases meant for a longer cartridge and trim them back ... or stretch the cases to match chamber depth.

In the case of a .44 Magnum revolver, I can't see a method for getting (or making) longer cases.
So, I would probably run a 'throat reamer' into the chamber to change that sharp 'step' into a low angled 'ramp' ... or change it to a straight cylindrical hole with no 'throat' (as such) at all.
I've also thought about that very same thing, running a reamer in the chamber to change the angle of the throat, but don't have any sort of tool at this time.
It would be like the chamber mouths in a Colt Walker .44, but with fixed ammunition instead of powder and ball.

Such a modification might work well for cast bullets, but would probably be a bad idea for jacketed stuff.

CM

[bones37]

Mal Paso, cbrick, beagle, montana_charlie and everone else involved with this thread, I want to say "Thank You" for all Your help. It is good to have the wealth of knowledge that is present here. I will keep everyone informed of any new developments as they happen.

[runfiverun]

445 Super Mag brass is just the ticket, Starline makes it. And 414 Super Mag and DW 360.

Here's tip for you Mr wolf. You MUST be sure the brass fits in the chamber and none of the longer brass fits into the throat. If a crimped round is chambered and the end of the brass (the crimp) is inside the throat the crimp cannot open to release the bullet. Could build serious pressure. As an example, say your chamber is 1.295", make certain the brass is no more than 1.292" or so. You must also be sure to check that the brass did not grow when fired or sized. The crimped brass must not fit into the throat.

Rick

this is how i dealt with it in my vaquero.
i have some 445 brass on hand because i have a 445.
if i ever run into this same problem again i wouldn't hesitate to make 50 pieces of brass for just the one gun.
445 to 44 would be a lot faster than making 375 super from 375 winchester.
or figuring it out cold like i did forming brass from 32-20 for my 30 carbine revolver.
thought i might could get bye with some 327 fed brass.

i recall someone does make a brass stretcher tool it's quite popular with the bpcr guy's.