Mauser actions

[OnHoPr]

I've been trying to do a little research on the mauser actions for a sporter. I am basically interested in the large ring style. So far from what I've read and learned from conversation is the VZ 24, the FN, and the K98. But, from what I understand you have to watch the years from which the K98 was made. Last week I noticed the Styer 1908 action which was their configuration of the K98. Is this action a good strong well made action such as the VZ24 and FN? Also, is there any other actions that I haven't mentioned to look out for in regards to a sporter build that are in the same league as the VZ24?

[375H&HGuy]

I'm no expert but I have always heard that one of the most desirable actions for a custom rifle is the 1909 Argentine. At one time I was very interested in having a custom 7x57 mauser sporter built and I picked up a nice 1909 action for the project. I plan to eventually have this done when funds allow. While researching actions I found a book entitled The Mauser Bolt Actions M91 through M98: A Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen. This is a very good and techincal book if you want to learn about the various actions and sporterizing options. This might be a good place to get some insight into what you want for your project.

[OnHoPr]

I did look into that book, but where I looked it was a $100 dollars. About the same price as a lot of milsurps. When you start putting a couple of hundred in to books just so you know what to look for and not get taken with limited funds, it puts a damper on things.

[phaessler]

Check Brownells, $100 seems like an anti-price to me..

http://www.brownells.com/books-videos/books/gunsmithing-books/rifle-gunsmithing-books/mauser-manual-sku924400098-25715-32959.aspx?sku=924400098

My personal preference has always been a true VZ24, well finished for metal work, again depending on the year, and slick operating for a long action. I have also built several customs on Yugo's with outstanding results.

Its probably a Ford-Chevy-Dodge thing.....

[375H&HGuy]

Amazon has them for around $38.00 plus shipping. If I remember correcly, that is about what I paid.

[bob208]

the only 98 actions i know of that are not good are the spainsh lacortina and anything used or made in china. depending on what cal. you want some of the turks are small ring threads.

[Dutchman]

The years to avoid for K98k would be 1945 and maybe 1944 due to wartime stresses in production and steel production.

The reason the 1909 Argentine action is desireable is due to the hinged floorplate. The metallurgy is no better than most other Mauser contract rifles.

Any German-made 98 action made prior to World War 1 would be good. The Brazilian 1908 is pretty common. The Austrian Steyr Chilean Model 1912 are fine actions. Just about any FN Belgian 98 action is excellent. Any of the Czech 98 actions like the 98/22, Vz24, Perisan 98/29, etc. The list is huge what actions are good and better. I'd avoid Spanish actions and I'd prefer German over South American-made like some of the Brazilian 98 actions or Argentine-made actions. Not that they aren't good its just that the German are somewhat superior in finish and quality.

Dutch

[TNsailorman]

My first rifle was a mauser and there have been many since then. I agree with the Dutchman about 1944 -45 actions. Most that I have seen were not finished or made all that well, being rather rough. I had a SVWmb 98 German mauser that (according to the codes from my German code book) the action was made in/marked in 1935, it was barreled in 1937, and finished after the war by the French(thus the SVWmb marking). My son has that rifle today and my dad had one just like it(my brother has that one). They did not have bayonet mountings and had a fake ramrod fixture on the from end of the stock. But they were beautifully machine and put togather. I always avoid the Spanish rifle as they too were loosely fitted. I have also seen at least two that had set-back on the locking lugs from being too soft. I had two of the 1909 actions and they had about the smoothest actions I have run into. I slicked one of the actions up and it was a pure joy to operate, being both smooth and tight. I only have experience with one German WW I action and it too was very nicely made but that one was made early in the war(1914) if memory is correct. I don't know how well their work held up later in the war. Not being a metalurgist, I have to defer to others on that front. To me at least, it seems like (metalurgy aside) that the fit and finish can vary widely depending on where the rifle is made most of the time moreso than when it was made. My experience anyway, james

[OnHoPr]

Thank you gentlemen. I've been doing a little research on the actions now and then. Every time I look into the matter it just opens up a half of dozen more can of worms. My interest was an entry level CB bench rest rifle. But, if that didn't work out I could still use it to kill deer. That is why I would like to get a good strong action, because if I wanted to shoot full house j loads, I would feel a little more comfortable. Always had a hankering to build a sporter since the 70's. I did acquire a new old stock Norwegian short chambered 7.62 NATO barrel in the white for the project. I hope it's a decent barrel. Maybe, I can get the project done before I wear quadfocals.:coffee:

[gnoahhh]

Good advice there re: which are good M98's. I might add that late war M98's are ok strength-wise, but are generally avoided due to the extreme roughness of their finish. Why make more work for yourself if it's to be the basis of a build?

Money spent in educating oneself will be earned back many times over. Buy the books, then buy the guns.

[gew98]

My first rifle was a mauser and there have been many since then. I agree with the Dutchman about 1944 -45 actions. Most that I have seen were not finished or made all that well, being rather rough. I had a SVWmb 98 German mauser that (according to the codes from my German code book) the action was made in/marked in 1935, it was barreled in 1937, and finished after the war by the French(thus the SVWmb marking). My son has that rifle today and my dad had one just like it(my brother has that one). They did not have bayonet mountings and had a fake ramrod fixture on the from end of the stock. But they were beautifully machine and put togather. I always avoid the Spanish rifle as they too were loosely fitted. I have also seen at least two that had set-back on the locking lugs from being too soft. I had two of the 1909 actions and they had about the smoothest actions I have run into. I slicked one of the actions up and it was a pure joy to operate, being both smooth and tight. I only have experience with one German WW I action and it too was very nicely made but that one was made early in the war(1914) if memory is correct. I don't know how well their work held up later in the war. Not being a metalurgist, I have to defer to others on that front. To me at least, it seems like (metalurgy aside) that the fit and finish can vary widely depending on where the rifle is made most of the time moreso than when it was made. My experience anyway, james

James , the SVWmb marked 98's are French post war...nothing to do with prewar. The french simply operated mauser oberndorf for almost a year after May 1945 and continued making 98k's with their particular touch until politics reared it's ugly head.
I have never yet in the many 44 and 45 dated 98's I had as collector quality and those bitsers I broke down for parts and or into sporters run into anything remotely low in mechanical quality.. but finish oh yeah. The VK98's I had were both crude and looked dangerous but in no way were. One I acquired from a one legged vietnam vet whom used it often to shoot..... and he acquired it from a friend over a debt ages before I got it from him.
Standard modell 98's as made are some of the most beautifully finished mauser 98's made , but I have experianced alot of them with critical parts that had been hand fitted negating any easy part interchange - especially if not collectible condition and being rendered into a sporter.

[flounderman]

you said you have a norwegian barrel. Is that small ring threads? If you can find a turkish 98, a lot of them have small ring threads. there's a lip on the front of the receiver ring to hold the handguard and that needs to be ground off. You can build a sporter with a turk action and a remington takeoff barrel. The 700 barrel has enough meat in the thread area you can thread small ring mauser threads under the remington threads.

[UBER7MM]

Beware, some FNs are Large ring actions but shorter than normal. They are the pattern that the Yugos are based on. I don't have my books with me to quote specifics. Perhaps there are other members that can chime in.

A German K98 with a pre-WWII manufacture date as well as a Polish or Czech should be of good steel. However we're talking about rifles that that did go through a war.

I hope this helps,

[TNsailorman]

gew98, Yes, the SVWmb's were made after the war by the French. On Page 89 of Robert Balls book on the history of the mausers by nationality, the only one pictured under Franch is the very rifle I described in my first post. Notice the fake bayonet and ramrod mounting. My rifle is in better shape than the one pictured, it being almost brand new when I bought it in the early 60's. I read a short article by a French Legionaire veteran in the late 60's in which he stated that the French government only issued the mausers they made up from parts left over from German warehouses captured by the allies at the end of the war. According to him, the French only issued the 98 mausers to border guards guarding the German border inside of Germany and to some but not all French Foreign Legion units that were stationed in French overseas territories. But he said the 98's were not allowed back inside Franch by law. He did not say whether he had actually carried or had seen one of these rifles. I have THE STANDARD DIRECTORY OF PROOK MARKS, a code book of all the German as well as European marks and codes. It was written by Gerhard Wirnsberger in Germany and translated by R.A. Steindler. That's where I found the proof and code markings that I talked about in my post. My rifle had very clear proof marks and codes and they showed the action, barrel being made in the years I listed. If the codes are wrong(which is possible), then the book is wrong. I was not there in 45-46 so I don't know how accurate any of the information I have gathered over the years is . Ball himself,never ventured into a discussion of the French mausers, he just showed one picture without discussion. I have read a few one line, one paragraph references to these rifle but never an indepth discussion anywhere. Since Ball is suppose to be THE mauser expert, and if he did not feel comfortable about venturing into a discussion the French mausers, it speaks volumns on the amount of real hard evidence available. If somebody could piece togather an article or a story with real evidence, I for one would love to see it. I have been trying to find some real evidence about them for years but what I know/have been able to gather is the sum total of what I have posted here and the first post on this. By the way, the Legionair's story on the 98's were just a few short sentences I found in a book he had written about how French politics had almost killed and often hampered greatly the work of the French Foreign Legion. To say He didn't seem to like French politicians would be an understatement. You are right about the Standard Modell 98, I have only been able to see and handle one that I can remember and it was beautifully put togather. Good to be able to talk about this with someone with knowledge about the subject. I appologize to everyone if I have highjacked this thread. Take care, james

[L1A1Rocker]

Here is my "sporterized" VZ-24. It's an internally suppressed 308 now. Form 1 legal of course.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j154/L1A1Rocker/Oct07A20299.jpg

[OnHoPr]

Large ring, military contour. Certain rules of the class say original action, but can probably be trued and military contoured barrel. The stock and trigger can be change though and I have to try to keep under a certain total weight. Good looking rifle L1A1Rocker. Good to know about the FN actions. So, the original finishes can determine the finish of final project. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go with blued or one of the newer baked on coatings. It it becomes a periodic hunting rifle, well I hunt in bad weather quite a bit. Thanx.

[gew98]

If you were a collector like myself you would know that few german references like you state are anywhere near as correct as the concise works on same subjects by collectors here in the good old USA..some of which are acquaintences of mine. Even research historians like Dieter Storz made some glaring errors in his awesome work on the gew98/kar98a....because he was not a collector he had not the breadth of experiance handling and owning original german weapons of that era. He's an awesome fellow though as he eats crow gladly when information & items are supplied to him to show assumptions and lack of collecting experiance led him astray. Sad to say there are more original german arms in the US than in europe overall. We kept our trophies in closets for the most part while europa buried & burned theirs and as well lost scores of records in the 2nd war.
Bob Ball is a damn good guy...He is NOT A COLLECTOR , NOR is he an EXPERT on german small arms . If you knew him you would not make such a statement. His first and second volumes contained alot of errors as he used alot of 'other peoples' information and bad pics/references supplied to him without vetting. Over time he has made alot of corrections to his works and vetting process. The Same applies to the late Richard Law...author of "the backbone of the wehrmacht" that propelled alot more fellows into german rifle collecting 20 + years ago. His tome had some glaring mistakes and some collectors with inflated egos managed to con him into including blatant fake junk and assumptions in his work to vindicate their junk and theories. Thankfully most of these fathead "advanced & knowledgeable" gents have been exposed and discounted for what they are.
The french foreign legion.... post WW2 had a CONSIDERABLE amount of germans in their ranks and german small arms...as well as the french army did too. A dear friend long passed on was a US small arms repair MOS whom was in Korea during the Korean conflict. He observed how the foreign legion troops carried german , some french and alot of American small arms. He worked on them all. Anyhow that aside how would any legionaire know what politcal policy was on small arms ?. The french made 98k's from what was on handat mauser oberndorf and commenced new production post haste when they took over oberndorf...that's a fact. The french also took gobs of 98k's and rebuilt them in france with all myriads of parts ...they were desperate for arms .
Another 'early' author was John Walter whom did several books on german rifles etc etc. His research was rather halfhearted as he made many of the same mistakes/assumptions ....especially repeating 'myths' serious collectors have known to be just that.


gew98, Yes, the SVWmb's were made after the war by the French. On Page 89 of Robert Balls book on the history of the mausers by nationality, the only one pictured under Franch is the very rifle I described in my first post. Notice the fake bayonet and ramrod mounting. My rifle is in better shape than the one pictured, it being almost brand new when I bought it in the early 60's. I read a short article by a French Legionaire veteran in the late 60's in which he stated that the French government only issued the mausers they made up from parts left over from German warehouses captured by the allies at the end of the war. According to him, the French only issued the 98 mausers to border guards guarding the German border inside of Germany and to some but not all French Foreign Legion units that were stationed in French overseas territories. But he said the 98's were not allowed back inside Franch by law. He did not say whether he had actually carried or had seen one of these rifles. I have THE STANDARD DIRECTORY OF PROOK MARKS, a code book of all the German as well as European marks and codes. It was written by Gerhard Wirnsberger in Germany and translated by R.A. Steindler. That's where I found the proof and code markings that I talked about in my post. My rifle had very clear proof marks and codes and they showed the action, barrel being made in the years I listed. If the codes are wrong(which is possible), then the book is wrong. I was not there in 45-46 so I don't know how accurate any of the information I have gathered over the years is . Ball himself,never ventured into a discussion of the French mausers, he just showed one picture without discussion. I have read a few one line, one paragraph references to these rifle but never an indepth discussion anywhere. Since Ball is suppose to be THE mauser expert, and if he did not feel comfortable about venturing into a discussion the French mausers, it speaks volumns on the amount of real hard evidence available. If somebody could piece togather an article or a story with real evidence, I for one would love to see it. I have been trying to find some real evidence about them for years but what I know/have been able to gather is the sum total of what I have posted here and the first post on this. By the way, the Legionair's story on the 98's were just a few short sentences I found in a book he had written about how French politics had almost killed and often hampered greatly the work of the French Foreign Legion. To say He didn't seem to like French politicians would be an understatement. You are right about the Standard Modell 98, I have only been able to see and handle one that I can remember and it was beautifully put togather. Good to be able to talk about this with someone with knowledge about the subject. I appologize to everyone if I have highjacked this thread. Take care, james

[frnkeore]

gew98,
when making statements about printed material, that you call inaccurate, please include factual references so, that we can see how and why they are inaccurate and can discount there use.

"The french made 98k's from what was on hand at mauser oberndorf and commenced new production post haste when they took over oberndorf...that's a fact."

how do you reference the above statement and what are the source/s for it?

do you have published material on the 98's that we can obtain?

i'm not saying that what you say is not accurate but, i would like to know how you came about your opinions and beliefs so that if i pass on what you say, that i know how substantiate it.

thank you,

frank