Reloading A Flintlock Pistol Tie Bar Cartridge - Can Anyone Help?

[marukka]

To start off, moderators, I'm sorry if this isnt the most appropriate area of the forum, I'm just not sure where this post would properly fit in here at CB. And due to the obscurity of this item, I decided to post it in a heavily trafficed area of the site.

So I inherited some 30+ year old firearm themed cuff links and tie bars from my grandfather. Among them was a pinfire Berloque pistol. I only have about a dozen loaded cartridges left, a few spent cartridges, and I was hoping someone here could help me figure out how to reload these, so I could continue to fire them whenever I please.

When you pull the trigger, the hammer drops and strikes a pin protruding from the cartidge, driving it in to the charge. I'm assuming I can pull the pins back out, but I have no clue what the charge could possibly be. The charge inside of the cartridges is a metalic silver colored disc. Does anyone have any ideas of what the charge is? When fired a there is a small muzzle flash, and some smoke which comes out of the two side ports in the barrel.

Thanks!

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7425/flintlock.jpg

[Alan in Vermont]

First off it is NOT a flintlock, it's a pinfire. Most likely the "charge" is some manner of "cap", as in cap pistol. It used to be possible to buy toy "Derringer" type pistols that used similar "cartridges" that resembled rimmed pistol ammo. The bullet part had a hole through it that let the flash and smoke pass out the barrel. The case was a loose fit on the bullet and slid forward, from the impact of the hammer, crushing the cap to set it off. IIRC, the guns came with a roll of special caps that were pre-punched so they could be stripped out of the paper tape and the right size to fit in the case. You could use roll caps if you tore just about all the paper off around the charge, so they were small enough to fit in the case. Two caps made a pretty good bang but any more than that would often cushion the hammer blow enough to cause misfires.

[marukka]

Thanks Alan, i'll give that a try sometime. I've done some more searching and finally found a few places which sell these guns and additional cartridges. They however are not cheap, $43 for 25 rounds. If anyone as any idea what the charge compound is, please let me know.

[Bad Water Bill]

First WELCOME to our happy home. [smilie=s:

Pull up a chair and a cup of coffee.

Somewhere in this site I disremember just where, there have been several discussions on how to use caps or STRIKES ANYWHERE match tips to freshen primers and little guys like yours.

Hang loose and someone here with a lot more puter smarts will come to your rescue

[Wayne Smith]

Does it actually propel a bullet? Looks like a hole in the side of the barrel. If there is no projectile then roll caps are more than adequate, no charge is necessary. It just makes a 'bang'.

[Dean D.]

Does it actually propel a bullet? Looks like a hole in the side of the barrel. If there is no projectile then roll caps are more than adequate, no charge is necessary. It just makes a 'bang'.

My thoughts too Wayne, it doesn't look like it is made to fire a projectile. If not, PLEASE do not try to fire one in it! Bad things happen when you try to fire a projectile out of something that was not designed to do so. I believe it is a novelty tie clasp designed to only fire blank (possibly reloadable) pinfire cases.

[firefly1957]

Silvery looking disk could be a couple things You might look for the thread on making primers for a compound to use I am guessing that you do not want a corrosive compound so that keeps you from using toy caps and strike anywhere matches. You should be able to reshape copper with a punch and cut a new pin easy enough. The real problem will be finding a compound you like that is not to dangerous to work with and all priming compounds are dangerous. ONE THOUGHT is to see if a CCI or other non-corrosive number 11 percussion cap could be squeezed to fit then place pin into open top to hold it in. The pin being hit would give a load pop but check if any metal comes out at dangerous speeds before common use.

[marukka]

@Wayne Smith

I have since learned that there are multiple versions of this specific pistol, and aparently many other 2mm pinfires, there is even a 7 shot double action revolver (The Xythos). This one only fires blanks, but there were some versions of mine with open muzzles which would use the blanks to initiate the charge on a 9mm flares.
http://www.berloque.com/Berloque/index.php

I've also found videos on youtube of people firing a single peice of #10 birdshot, or pieces of 2mm copper wire. Surprisingly it is able to penetrate 3 aluminum cans. A long time ago, supposedly one company even made ammo with bullets in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUL9fNYJxXM

@firefly1957
Do you know how big that percussion cap is? The OD of the blank cartridge is 2mm. I have read about reloading primers in the US Army's Improvised Orindance field manual. Do you know if those compounds from match heads (or cap strips) are corosive to brass too, or only to steel? I've also been thinking about trying to remove the priming compound from a centerfire primer and stuffing it in there.

[fouronesix]

Obviously a type of pin fire designed to shoot a lightly charged blank. I'd say try either a single cap (the kind used in kids' cap guns) or the very end of a strike anywhere wood match.

Those things were made as novelty items so I imagine finding the right novelty ammo may be impossible. Given the PC nature of the world today, may be hard to find cap gun paper caps and the strike anywhere matches aren't very common either. Anyway, an interesting project.

[firefly1957]

I was unsure of the size a #11 cap would be a bit large the contents are not corrosive but are more costly than primers so maybe your idea would work . Just remember never take more than one apart at a time,never Let the dust accumulate,or have more than a single primer in the work area at a time. WERE SAFETY GLASSES AND A VEST OR JACKET as the parts can move quickly if they ignite slow movement rarely sets off priming it takes a sharp blow but static can also do it. I have taken apart primers that got crushed sideways when loading it is unnerving but none of them have gone off.

[Nobade]

Wow, I haven't seen one of those in years! My dad had one when he was a kid, and I remember him telling me about how it fired Victrola needles with surprising effect. (His had an open barrel.) I used to play with it when I was a kid, but never had any ammo then.

I remember Dixie Gun Works selling the ammunition back maybe 25 or 30 years ago, might be worth asking them if they know anything about that now.

[marukka]

I have taken apart primers that got crushed sideways when loading it is unnerving but none of them have gone off.
Yeah I had a similar problem on my first reloading attempt on my Forster Co-Ax with a large pistol primer. The primer got cut in half, and the anvil even got jammed in the primer holding mechanism, requiring a part replacement. I was surprised that it didnt go off.

Lately I've been getting some bad ideas in my head about this. I've been thinking about trying to model the cartridge in QuickLOAD. Estimating how much hoop stress the barrel could take. And loading a cartridge with some actual powder for a magnum load. Thankfully I don't think my Lyman scale is accurate enough for this, and since i'm unemployed, I can't afford a electromotive force restoration scale.

@nobade
Yeah i've been thinking about shooting projectiles out of this. From what i've read online, the ATF does not consider this to be a firearm. I wrote them a letter just to confirm before I drill the muzzle. If I ever take a concealed carry class, I want to bring this to qualify with just for laughs.

[Wayne Smith]

Before you do anything you should figure out what metal it is. I would not bet it is steel, much less gun steel.

[marukka]

It is brass, god knows what alloy, and I dont have the knowledge or tools to figure out its composition so it would just be a lot of guessing, safety factors, and using a string and vise to fire it if I should ever get a better scale.

I quickly modeled it and used QL's minimum case capacity (1gr H2O), assuming a cartridge pressure of 5 kPSI is safe (9.4 kPSI hoop stress), i could send a 0.76 grain peice of #9 shot at 710 FPSwith 0.235gr of Clays. If 7.5 kPSI is safe then I could get up to 861 FPS with 0.28gr of Clays. Since I probably over estimated the case capacity and since the shot wont seal the barrel, actual velocities would likely be lower.