recent confusion with the .32

[mainiac]

After tooting my horn about the sweet little .32 muzzle-loader, I ran into a snarl today. It was pretty hot today, and using my settled upon load, i had substandard accuracy. The thing i noticed the most is, i am now getting blown patches. I mean totally shredded,and some of them stay intact,but the center is blown out cokkie-cutter stlye. My load is pretty mild, 23 gr. volume (16 grs weighed) of pyrodex p, lee cast ball .311, and .010 muslin patch material,with bore-butter. My questions are, why is this bothering me now? And would the patch hold up better if it was a tighter fit? This combo is pretty loose,and makes for very easy loading, and would prefer to stay with it. Dont no how the load could go bad so quick, unless its a pressure thing from hotter temps??? Only difference is that i had to switch to the cci caps instead of the rws that i was using? Could this be it? Hot water cleaned her tonight,and couldnt get it really clean, it then occured to me that the barrell has lead in it from the patch blowing out and letting the bare ball touch the bore!!! Now i have to check for lead fouling! Any ides? thanks,

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

maniac; First....I got no, none, nada experience with Pyro, lots with Black.
The cap change should not cause a problem, RWS used to be the hottest cap, I used them in pistol only.
Your problem sounds like thin patch, light lube. When the pressure goes up, the thin patch lets the gas thru, and burns up, sometimes a "load" of lube may stop this, but a thicker patch would be my first change. Patch should be more or less intact with a light scorched spot in the middle.:)
Nick

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It's the @#$%^%^& bore butter! BvT

[mainiac]

Finially have a line on goex fff,at a real good price. Going to stock up and get rid of the pyro. Am going to try a heavier patch, if i can find some material at walmart. They have .017 blue strip pillow tick, but upon trying it, wasnt impressed with the accuracy. Hopefully ill find something .012-.013. Was it you ark-pac-rat, that had the .313 lee mold for sale? Cant remember who had it. Maybe i need to go this route?

[mainiac]

It's the @#$%^%^& bore butter! BvT

Beleive me, I aim to test the lube thing out,and see just what the heck is going on, if bore-butter is suspect, ill have to rethink my load all over again. At least i have an excuse why i drink so much!!! HA!

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

maniac, we used "pocket drill" for patching, like light canvas, way back when we could get it, I believe it's lighter than ticking.
Nick

[44man]

I switched to denim for patches. Have to take the mike to the store but when you find what you want, you can buy a big hunk. I found a lot of different thicknesses with store bought patches even though they are marked as a certain thickness. Then TC kept the same number but put much thinner material in the bags.
You are looking for easy to load instead of accuracy. The proper size ball and patch should have the cloth imbedded into the ball .005" FROM THE GROOVES! If you start a ball with a piece of patch and pull it back out, you should see the weave of the cloth imbedded into the lead by the grooves. Forget the lands!
Pyrodex does change burn with the weather but no matter what powder you use, don't ever depend on "bump up" for accuracy. Fit to the gun first.

[piwo]

And remember when shopping for patches with your calipers, it is the crush value you are interested in, not the "touch" value when jaws of the caliper just touch like you would do measuring everything else.. What does this material squoosh down too: that's what is of value......

[44man]

Right on Piwo! Best to use a mike instead of calipers though.
Have to remember the best fit will take one very hard strike on the short starter too. You need a big ball on the starter. Some of those tiny starters they sell will break your hand. If the patched ball can just be pushed in, it is wrong!
Gee, I can see the guys with WW balls getting the proper fitting ball and patch in the gun. They must carry a sledge on a thong!

[piwo]

.... Some of those tiny starters they sell will break your hand. If the patched ball can just be pushed in, it is wrong!
Gee, I can see the guys with WW balls getting the proper fitting ball and patch in the gun. They must carry a sledge on a thong!

I just wish I could get a starter made with a larger short starting piece of brass. The ones I have aren't large enough and badly indent the soft lead .54's. Anyone have any luck getting nice large ones that are caliber correct in shape?

[mooman76]

Maniac
I always burned holes in my .32 also when I used that bore butter. Try another lube. Crisco isn't the best but it works. Give it a try just to see if you get the same results.

[44man]

First, lube does not solve the problem of blowby cutting patches. I don't care if you use cat snot on the patch, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit! How anyone can say a lube change fixes it doesn't compute.
I make my own starters with large balls and brass short and long starters that are cut to fit the ball and with a relief cut for the sprue. Some of the junk they sell is a waste of money. No better then a length of dowel and a hammer.

[mooman76]

I know for a fact when I used BB it burned the patch badly leaving a large hole in the patch and it didn't with other lubes. All I am saying is it doesn't hurt to try another lube. It may not fix the problem and then again it may but he won't know unless he tries.

[fishhawk]

same results for me with BB there is only one front stuffer of mine that it works in and thats with a green mountain barrel all the others shoot better with Crisco the only problem with the Crisco is a loss of range when useing it

[44man]

I learned to shoot muzzle loaders more years ago then I want to say, from Bill Large and Dan and Wes Kindig. I have never had a cut or burnt patch no matter what lube is used. I have shot some fantastic groups to 200 yd's with Wonder Lube and Bore Butter. I just like Young Country and Ballistol better.
How can you blame a lube for a poor ball and patch fit?
Follow the TC mantra of small ball, thin patch, easy loading, with minute of deer at 25- 30 yd's, then don't complain!
TC started the crap. When I started nobody shot less then land size balls. The mold was bought after a small hole gage measured from land to land. That was the ball size! My .45 took a .450 ball, my .50 took a .500 ball. Now we have whimps that can't hit the starter! I have to confess to using a .535 ball in my .54, but I use a .022" patch.
All of you are looking for a load you can blow down the bore with your breath. Come shoot with me and I will show you what a round ball will do. I will whip you with my 70 year old eyes. My flinters and Hawkin have accounted for about 120 or more deer to out past 100 yd's. The balance of the total of around 365 deer were taken with bows, revolvers and a few with the shotgun and rifle.
If you can't cut a tiny ragged hole at 50 yd's, you are not loading right! It's no wonder so many are going to the inlines and those plastic thingys. Don't know how to shoot a REAL gun.

[fishhawk]

well with the 45 green mountain barrel useing one lube off the bench i could not keep 3 shots on a 8 inch pie plate at 25 yds and was burning patches and blowing them out chaged the lube same patch as before i could cover 5 shots with a quarter i been shooting BP with the old timers for 30 years suffield ..kurth Curly and others when the lube is a problom i know it! yes i patch tight and the round ball is the only projectile for a muzzle loader

[piwo]

...
I make my own starters with large balls and brass short and long starters that are cut to fit the ball and with a relief cut for the sprue.

Guess I"m not following: "you use large balls and brass short" YOu use large balls in the rifle, or large balls to make your own starter? I too use a brass short starter, but it's too much a peg, and deforms the ball badly.

[Nardoo]

44Man,

I'm new to this front loading caper. I have just spent the last month wrestling with a new-to-me T/C Seneca 36 cal finding out the hard way what you have related in a couple of succinct paragraphs.

I wish I'd read your ideas on patch and ball before I started - would have saved me a couple hundred caps. Was goood fun though. Thanks!

Nardoo

[44man]

No, the starter has a large wood ball so I can smack it hard. Here is a picture. Compare with some sold in stores.

[44man]

You have to remember that the starter must fit the ball, then you don't want to beat on it a lot because you can still deform it. I watch some old timers at the shoots tap, tapping on the starter with a little hammer, then when the ball is seated, they slam the rod down on it a couple of times. Might as well shoot sinkers.
You have to strike the starter HARD to get the ball in with one motion. Then it will push down easier.

[mooman76]

I made my starters also. I used a round ball type that I got out of a craft store. It is not compleatly round like a ball though. It tapers off on the end so it is shaped more like a door knob. Kind of like a ball but flatter on the end so my palm fits it a little better. Then I used wooded dowel rod and put a fired brass shell on the end for strength. I have a bit that I am not sure what it was for but it looks like a router bit but the other end is like a rasp. I used it to round the end of my starter to fit the projectile. I had a hard time making one for my .32 because it was so small but I used a small piece of fiberglass rod in it and had a hard time finding a piece of fired brass to fit. Either too small or too short. I ended up usinf a 32 auto and grinding the edge down a little.
That's one of the things I like about BP. Allows you to be creative and come up with your own ideas to make things!

[mainiac]

You have to remember that the starter must fit the ball, then you don't want to beat on it a lot because you can still deform it. I watch some old timers at the shoots tap, tapping on the starter with a little hammer, then when the ball is seated, they slam the rod down on it a couple of times. Might as well shoot sinkers.
You have to strike the starter HARD to get the ball in with one motion. Then it will push down easier.

44 man, you suppose danial boone carried a 8# sledge with him to seat his round balls? Ive proven that my .32 is lube specific,and shoots real well with easy to load balls. As to my blown patch problems, ill figure it out. Ive asked you before, what is the shape and size of your target, that lets you shoot one hole groups @ 50 yards? Im no stranger to shooting very accurate rifles, but id like to know how to shoot bug holes @ 50 yards or more? My eye balls are only 39 years old, but ill be darned if i can precisely hold in the exact place- past 25 yards-- WITH OPEN SIGHTS? Please enlighten me of your magic.

[44man]

Just regular targets or a spot drawn on cardboard. My eyes are not what they were, I am almost 70. Back when I shot silhouette I could focus on the sights and still see a 200 meter target sharp. No longer, sadly and even with glasses it is hard. It is also harder to hold still off hand. I do test things from sandbags.
One thing that helps me is I am not recoil sensitive and have perfect trigger control. I won many groceries shooting a flintlock off hand at 50 yd's. I also hit 4 out of 5 steel chickens in a row at 200 meters with my .54 Hawkin off hand and could hit the gong every shot. (It was bigger.)
If you look at my avitar you will see what I do with revolvers at 50 yd's. Full house .475 Linebaugh loads and a 45-70. I have several 1" groups at 100 yd's from my Ruger SBH .44.
Even off hand, I can call every shot, hit or miss because the ball or boolit goes where the sights were when the trigger broke. Yeah, I wiggle more now too. But from bags, nothing moves.
Here is the type group I used to get from the TC hawkin (Early model.) with maxi balls at 50 yd's. It would do the same with balls, open sights. The ball was .500 and the patch .015".

[44man]

The 45-70 group on my avitar has since been shot smaller. I have gone under 9/16" for 5 shots. Control the trigger, forget about recoil and good things happen. YUP, have to use a red dot now for hunting.

[waksupi]

You just need to experiment yourself. I've shot cloverlafs at a hundred, with WW balls, and thumb started balls. Frank Costanza had a collection of over 90 original bags. Maybe 2 or 3 short starters in the whole bunch.

[joeb33050]

I just wish I could get a starter made with a larger short starting piece of brass. The ones I have aren't large enough and badly indent the soft lead .54's. Anyone have any luck getting nice large ones that are caliber correct in shape?
I'm new at the ML game, got my start here. I start the ball with the rubber end of a rubber/plastic head mallet. This doesn't damage the ball at all and still puts the ball down into the rifling. Then I use a short starter I got from Track of the wolf-for 50 caliber, that fits = FITS the ball. My other short starter damages the ball.
The mallet start for the ball keeps the grunting down, that first mash into the rifling can be tough. But, I'm new at the ML game.......
joe brennan

[44man]

Track of the Wolf sells good stuff. The discount store stuff is what you have to be careful with. I have seen starters with such small knobs there is no way to start anything. Most don't fit anything either or will have bare wood on the ends.

[shdwlkr]

For what is worth I have an early made .32 caliber Cherokee made by TC and have always shot .315 diameter round balls in it. It is the size that TC recommmeded.
As to patching and lube I use what I have and have never had the issues others are talking about.
If memory serves me right the heaviest load I used was 50-60 grains and didn't see where it improved a thing. My loads are 18-30 grains, pillow ticking from Walmart and what ever I had with me for lube.
I will have to see if my rifle still works the same as it has or if BB will cut the patch. I use orginal black, Pyro, triple 7 seems to all go boom and has about the same results. But what do I know I have been shooting them for over 30 years so I guess I have just been lucky. Or maybe I don't know what a burned patch is or stuck ball or a dry load.
Seems everything has changed and maybe the powder and lubes we had way back when were just made better.
Now putting a smaller ball in the barrel is ok if you put in a thicker patch. I use a .015+ thick patch and would use a .020 with a .310-.311 size ball yes it will load harder and you will have to clean your barrel sooner. But how many of you shoot these little guys that much.
As to what the really old timers did I don't know for sure I am old but not that old I have read a lot and it seems they kept trying until it worked for there needs in their rifle. Meaning larger ball that would fit, patching what ever was needed, and lubed with what they had. They didn't have all the selections we do today or the spare money we do.
If your dead set on the .310 or .311 ball size use a thicker patch and stay with one lube ( who cares what ) until you get a load you like then start changing one thing at a time to see what happens. :idea:

my 3 cents

[mooman76]

I don't mess with buying patches or material from Walmart. I get my patches out of te closet and they work fine. As long as it isn't a sythetic material you can uses it. Old dress shirts, Flannel or BDU's. Go through what you have that you would throw out anyway. Cut a bunch of swatches and take them out with you next time you go and see what works best.

[44man]

Some of the old timers used buckskin for patches. That takes a MUCH smaller ball. Yes, a smaller ball with a thicker patch works fine as long as the ball is engraved enough to take the rifling. The problem with burned patches is from too small a ball and too thin a patch. It has NOTHING to do with the lube.
The lube is there to soften fouling, make the gun easier to load and to prevent bore wear from the patches.
Cut patches and burned out patches are two different things. Either causes bad accuracy but are caused by completely different reasons. If a patch is cut when loading, the problem must be found and fixed but if a patch is burned out when shooting, blame the small ball and thin patch. GAS IS GOING PAST THE BALL! Some of you might be getting that mixed up! Take a swath of patch, punch a ball into the muzzle and grap the patch material to pull the ball back out. If it is cut, fix what causes it. Don't blame the lube!
Patches will polish a bore until it is super slick after many shots. Accuracy will go to pot. The old timers knew this and would fill the bore with urine overnight to etch the bore. White vinegar will also do it. A smooth bore without sharp edges and tool marks is good but those that think a super highly polished bore will shoot good are dead wrong. The barrel must have a little "bite".
The inline and sabot might work fine with a high polish, but not the patched ball.
Everyone thinks the ball is hard to load yet I have had a lot of friends here to shoot their inlines where I watched some of them put the ram rod against a tree to get the sabot down. It's funny as hell as I load shot after shot and shoot all day without wiping. The proper lube allows this, a poor lube only means you wipe the bore once in a while.
Then there are those that want the ball to fall down with the weight of the ramrod, they don't expect or get accuracy, just smoke and noise. They have no idea what a muzzle loader is capable of.

[mooman76]

44man

I agree with you for the most part but I think there is something flammable in BB. I tried burning it but it would not burn which leads me to think it need a higher ignition than a match provides. I have used BB with patches that did not burn with other lubes and did with BB.
I think next time I go shooting I will try it again to see if it happens again or if I'm just getting old!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Life is simple with a .32. Beeswax/tallow mixed in a chapstick like proportion. lightly greases patch strips. A 5/16" or a little less diameter short starter with a bit of cupping in the business end. Brass not needed. A patch/ball combination favoring ball size that will load reasonably in the squirrel woods with your hunting ramrod. A steel rod for target work and final cleaning. A load of FFFg worked up in 2 grain increments. Mine is either 15 or 30 grains depending on whether deer are possible. Hel*, You can shoot at 25 yards with a long rifle case full of powder for practice. Wipe every other shot with a damp spit patch when squirrelling, or every time for targets. Pocket drill from AMERICAN jeans is usually .011" or .010", Ticking at .017" is too thick usually. High thread count linen or cotton at .006/7/8" works ok. Both loads should shoot the same one legendary ragged hole at 25, a bit larger at 50 with the lesser charge shooting a little lower. The 30 grain charge will hold out to 60 yards or maybe a bit more. A lot depends on bore condition. If you can't keep a ML barrel perfectly clean and unblemished expect poor shooting. Rough bores are not RB performers unless you are lucky. For squirrel hunting learn to load out of your pouch & horn, or make speed loaders of 357 mag cases with spent primers and the patched ball keeping the powder in. Thats my advice. BvT

[44man]

I hope I don't sound like I am promoting bore butter. I think I explained that I don't like it or Wonder Lube. I don't like any lube that dries out and gets hard or can't be used in cold weather.
I have had very good accuracy with the stuff when used fresh in warm weather but they both have too many drawbacks.
Young Country is the only commercial lube I will pay for. Been using it for years without a single problem.

[piwo]

Gotchya. Thanks for the pic.

My short starter has a sufficiently large wooden ball, but its brass seating peg does not fit the ball and is the source of my consternation. When you mentioned making them, I didn't know if you were making the brass pieces. I haven't been able to find one of adequate dimension locally. I've poked around on a few of the more popular internet sites, but I'll have to dig harder. If you or anyone has a good source for such brass pieces, please be so kind as to pass that along. :drinks:

I'd like to get this setup correctly for my .54 and the .58. 8-)