Lil'Gun, what IS this stuff?

[44man]

My first time with Lil'Gun. I started at minimum and worked to max with two bullets. I shot the first five slow and the barrel was HOT. I changed the target and shot five more and could not touch the barrel or cylinder. I have never had a revolver get that hot! I spent more time blowing down the barrel and waving it back and forth then I did shooting. Five more shots and I could solder with it. It took all afternoon to test a few loads.
I found several good loads but a half grain either way opens groups wide.
I was shooting Creedmore and felt hard punches through the blast shield on my calf. I was also getting sprayed with particles all the way to my elbow on my head supporting arm. I would be blind without glasses. The bore is very dirty and the muzzle has black crap beyond the crown. This gun has a 10" barrel!
I was using Speer and Hornady bullets.
I had no pressure signs and brass fell out.
I have NONE of these problems with 296 or any other powder.

[Blammer]

You may want to contact the manufacturer.

I have NOT had ANYTHING at all happen like what you describe, with the several pounds of Lil Gun I have gone through.

[7BRU]

same here no problems whatsoever. lil gun shoots harder in my 357 max than anything else with no pressure signs at all.

I have ran it a lot in a gp 100 with 158 gr bullets and nothing shoots as good or as accurate.

BRU

[Lloyd Smale]

i thought it was the answer to my prayers when i first started hearing people brag it up. Found out on my own that it isnt. It can be a good powder, dont get me wrong, but i reminds me of blue dot with the small pressure window it works well in and the fact that pressures can skyrocket with a small increase in charge weight. Its like the total opposite of 110, another powder thats lost alot of its appeal to me over years of testing it. Lil gun is a little better to down load then 110 but more finicky on the top end. Ive also noticed that if i take a gun and load it to a certain veloicity using say 110 or aa9 and then load to the same velocity with little gun i get a noticeable increase in recoil and muzzle blast with the lilgun. Im wouldnt doubt that muzzle flash is do to a hotter burning temp and thats probably where your barrel heat is comming from. Ive got 110 and lilgun on the shelf and probably allways will in some quantity but my go to powders for big handguns anymore are aa9, wc820 and h4227 with 2400 bring up the rear. Ive never shot enough lilgun to prove it but i told other people id about bet its tough on forcing cones.

[GP100man]

44man
thats what happened to me in a 6" gp100 i shot 10 rnds. then looked down the barrel nearly burnt my hand!!
i think the barrel was so hot it melted the lube of the boolits!!!

GP100man

:cbpour:

[7BRU]

yah your dead on right about the flash. i shot some rounds max loads in the gp100 at a local indoor range.

h4227 is a great powder for accuracy but is slow on the fps side of thing. i like it that way. accuracy over speed any day.

BRU

[JSH]

From my take on the lil gun, it is better with the heavies, 180+ in the 357 mag. That is all I have tried it in, 10" TC. Recoil and blast yes, dirty no.
Jeff

[454PB]

I haven't used Lil'Gun in my .357's yet, but have burned a lot of it in .44 magnums and .454 Casulls. It's great in those two, and I generally fire 100 rounds or so in a session, and never noticed any more barrel heating than normal.

[357maximum]

Lil'Gun, what IS this stuff?


answer: One of THEE best high performance powders for heavy boolits in the 357mag, and close to the best in the 357 max with 180gr+ boolits, the only powder that beats it for an all around speed/accuracy powder is Vhit N-120. I can get just slightly more accuracy out of H4227(old) but at the cost of 4-600 fps. For 1/8 to 1/4 inch of difference at 100yds I'll take the extra punch H-LilGun produces.

[Bullshop]

Have only used it in two cartridges and both are 22. If ya want to make a 22 hornet go fast Lil'gun is the powder. For my 22 Cooper and 55 gn boolits its tops for speed too. A bit too slow in the Cooper with lighter boolits though.
BIC/BS

[Bret4207]

Works good in 32WCF, 218 Bee, some others that I've tried but don't recall. Haven't had ANY issues other than good accuracy with previously unobtainable velocity at lower pressures.

[Bass Ackward]

My first time with Lil'Gun. I started at minimum and worked to max with two bullets. I shot the first five slow and the barrel was HOT. I changed the target and shot five more and could not touch the barrel or cylinder. I have never had a revolver get that hot! I spent more time blowing down the barrel and waving it back and forth then I did shooting. Five more shots and I could solder with it. It took all afternoon to test a few loads.
I found several good loads but a half grain either way opens groups wide.
I was shooting Creedmore and felt hard punches through the blast shield on my calf. I was also getting sprayed with particles all the way to my elbow on my head supporting arm. I would be blind without glasses. The bore is very dirty and the muzzle has black crap beyond the crown. This gun has a 10" barrel!
I was using Speer and Hornady bullets.
I had no pressure signs and brass fell out.
I have NONE of these problems with 296 or any other powder.


Well, let's see .... hot barrel. Hmmm? Any clue's there? Sounds like the powder was burning out in the barrel instead of in the cylinders. Are there any other signs to support this theory?

Sprayed particles you say? Uh huh. That kinda supports it.

Dirty bore? Yep, no pressure to burn.

What I "think" we have is a "zoner". That's a powder cartridge combination where the case capacity is too small and the powder is too slow and therefore is starting the bullet moving before consistent pressure gets up. Under ideal situations, Quickload says that's only about a 61% burn rate with 158 grain bullets. Your 296 would be 73%. At those levels you might get away with stick powders, but not balls. In other words, you are entering "the zone" or too slow territory. Under ideal or perfect conditions you are blowing 40% of your powder out the end of your barrel.

My guess is from your comments you are burning way less than that. What helps to determine too slow for a gun? How wide is the BC gap? The wider it is, the more pressure you will lose at that point if your powder speed is destined to peak beyond that point. Then pressure may NEVER get up where it needs to be to burn for that powder. So when this powder should be burning, it's already well out in the barrel. And since you have 6 shots burning out there instead of in the cylinder, looks to me like your barrel is getting hot. Not good for handgun rates of fire especially. So while one wheller might be OK with it, another could fall into .... "the ZONE".

IMO, you need to take actions to get pressure up before the bullet starts to move in your situation, for what ever reason. You know what they are. Are you playing with standard primers and ball powders again? :grin: That's bound to bite you eventually.

[Lloyd Smale]

Bass ive ran it at full pressure in the 44 mag 475 and 500 linebaugh and it still gives monsterous muzzle blast and heats the barrel up with just a couple shots to the point that i lay it down because im nervous about throat errosion. Tell you one thing. Load it up to full power in the 475 if you want to feel some handgun recoil!! Its also impressive out of the door at camp at night!!!

[44man]

That sounds right! I have already started to polish down the expander on my old set of RCBS dies to tighten pull. Since it has been forever since I had a .357, I never bought better dies. (All of you know I don't like RCBS dies for accuracy.) I am shooting 180 gr bullets also.
I don't like the particles blasting the forcing cone and me either.
If that doesn't fix the burn, I will try the powder in my .44 with my 330 gr boolit.
I worked loads with both 4227's and had the worst groups. Blue dot approached 1" at 50 yd's but there is no working room with the short range of charges. 296 did pretty good, good groups and clean burning.
I didn't expect it from Lil'Gun since it is faster then 296 but the coating must retard burning too much.

[felix]

Appears as if that stuff had been designed for long barrels only. I have never seen a short barreled 410, even sawed off. ... felix

[44man]

I didn't accomplish much with the expander because it really wasn't too large. I polished a step so the lower half does not touch, leaving 1/16" before the flare. The only way to tighten more is to size smaller.
I might just have to use the powder in my .410 only. I don't like the idea of ruining my revolvers.

[357maximum]

I have the same issues as the original post with AA1680, and is why I found a more suitable powder for my max. It is all in the way the dominoes fall I spose, and they will fall differently for differnt styles of irons, and different loading techniques.

There are good reasons there are so many powders on the market. I emplore anyone to get posted velocities with AA1680 and 180+ boolits in the 357 max, from what I have seen it is impossible, and foolhardy to try, but 1680 does have it's places, just not in any of my 357mag/max irons. 1680 does give one very impressive fireball in the 15 inch 357max, and is the biggest reason I do not use it for hunting, LilGun gives a very small golf ball sized flame trace with similar loads, and is why it is hunting worthy for me and my uses. LilGun in the 357 max will show some erratic behavior when one is teetering on the very upper edge, but with the way this powder increases speed and decreases pressures, one does not need to make expanding primer pocket loads with it, I can already best 35 rem ballistics, why push harder? A 180-200 grain 358 boolit at 22-2300 fps is plenty enough for our whitetails. N-120, LilGun are the only two powders I can do this with day in and day out and have no pressure spikes like H110, 296 will show in hot weather when loaded to the same energy levels.

Increase bullet pull or go buy another powder.

[slughammer]

What kind of primers are you using?

In my Marlin 1894C Microgroove with the 180gr group buy and Lil-Gun I tried sm pistol, sm pistol mag and sm rifle. Small rifle showed the best accuracy.

[357maximum]

What kind of primers are you using?

In my Marlin 1894C Microgroove with the 180gr group buy and Lil-Gun I tried sm pistol, sm pistol mag and sm rifle. Small rifle showed the best accuracy.

I use Remington 7 1/2 S.R. BR exclusively in the 357max, and normally run winchester standard SP in the 357mags.

[44man]

Might be why it gets the gun so hot! It is made to burn over a longer period instead of spiking fast. The more of it that burns in the bore, the lower the pressure and the higher the barrel heat. I have never had a rifle barrel get that hot in that few of shots unless it was a large magnum.
I have a small cylinder gap but every shot sprayed me with powder grains. The front of the cylinder and frame were black and the sides of the cylinder had blue spots, almost like heat blueing. It all cleaned up with a brass brush and M-Pro 7. If this powder is spraying unburned powder through the forcing cone, it will sandblast it fast. It might be best to reserve it to single shots.
The cylinder was also blazing hot after 5 slow shots, a target change and 5 more slow shots. If you ran 25 fast shots, you could probably see through the barrel from the sides.

[Bass Ackward]

Tell you one thing. Load it up to full power in the 475 if you want to feel some handgun recoil!! Its also impressive out of the door at camp at night!!!


44 and Lloyd,

Take 2400 in a 357 Maggie with a 180gr bullet. Why 2400? Because it is very easily ignited and has an excellent burn rate reputation. It is also not thought of as a "slow" powder in this situation.

From a 10" barrel the burn rate percentage is 90%. Not to bad huh? From a 2" snubbie, the burn rate is only 60%. Both are 357s with heavy bullets. One guy might be happy if he got good accuracy but the other is going to complain that 2400's dirty and flashy and stuff hits his leg etc. One guy will say that 2400 is the greatest thing since sliced bread and the snubbie guy is going to say 2400 causes more recoil. Why? Cause his muzzle pressure is still climbing when the bullet exits.

Would the same thing happen to 296? Sure. Two different opinions again. Does that make 296 a bad powder or just bad under certain applications?

Both of you guys would really benefit from Quickload. :grin: This way you could "see" what's hapnin before you load the powder. From my loads in handguns, if you can't burn better than 80% of your powder in any situation, your going to have trouble. Without Quickload, the only way to tell is to blow components. And that's getting to be expensive.

How fine a line are we talking here? Let's look at it. What barrel length does it take for 4227 class powders in a 357 with 180 grin bullets to get to a burn rate of 80%?

Well, 12.5 grains won't get there with a 48" barrel. For 13 grains you need a 28" barrel. Don't see too many of those in 357 either. At 13.5 grains you can now burn 80% with a 20" barrel. At 14 grains which is 39,000 and slightly over max, you can burn 80% down to a 14" barrel. See the trend? Raise the pressure slightly and barrel length requirement drops.

With 296, you can burn 80% with a 7" barrel. So .... where should your powder cut off be if all you have is a 10" barrel and you want to use 180 grain bullets in a 357?

Have I ever said how I like Quickload and how much money it saves me? :grin:

[Blammer]

so what is the burn % with a 24 inch brl and 15 gr of lil gun and 210 gr bullet in 357 magnum?

[Bass Ackward]

so what is the burn % with a 24 inch brl and 15 gr of lil gun and 210 gr bullet in 357 magnum?


The program is volume driven. You must have a longer OAL than standard 357 because the program says that case capacity using an RCBS 200, is only @ 10 grains. I would need OAL in .000.

Pressure is the key and volume determines pressure. I doubt that 44man was using standard length either. That's the point. Seat your bullets out and you can quickly drop burn rate. OF coarse you can increase powder charge again, but that won't come out of a manual that's data is fixed.

When you are using faster powders you have much more flexibility than when you are on the cusp of being too slow.

[44man]

Thats what confuses me Bass, Lil'Gun is supposed to be faster then 296. I have no problems at all with 296.
I also seated and crimped in the cannelure, remember---jacketed bullets.

[45r]

I would use 296 or H-110 for 180 grainGC boolits in 357.I tried lots of powders and found H-110 the most accurate in my long barreled M-27 S&W.2 and a half inch groups at 45 yards with iron sights made me happy with my 53 year old eyes.I found unique shot as good with my plain base 180 grain-secant boolits.2400 shoots very well with my lyman 358156 boolits.Same or better accuracy.I run all my 357 loads at max powder charges listed in the manuals.Lil-gun works best with heavy(255 grain or heavier) boolits in 41 mag,44 mag,454 casull with long barrels and max powder charges.Accuracy isn't as good as some other powders but velocity is at least 100 to 150 fps higher.with 300 grain 454 casull loads and I've got 1780 fps with my F/A 83 and 2 inch groups at 50 yards when it had iron sights.probably do better with the ultra-dot on it now.

[44man]

45r, 53!!! Why you durn whippersnapper! You young uns is spoiled. I'm going on 70!
Yeah, I'm not impressed with Lil'Gun since I never look for max velocity anyway. I am more interested in tiny groups even if it is slower then the gun can do. Never seen a deer complain! My two passions are to squeak out the best accuracy from a revolver, then shoot deer with it. Takes all my time between work around the house. I have never seen the reasoning to find the fastest loads with any gun, rifle, pistol or revolver, if groups suck.

[45r]

lil-gun is accurate in 454 casull and with your skill with a revolver you could take a deer out to 200 yards and beyond with a 300 grain boolit.454 casull uses a rifle primer and burns lil-gun powder the way it was designed,from the rear forward like a match instead of being ignited largely at once.Small rifle primers give a more predictable(gentler)pressure curve and the primer pockets last longer in 454 casull.I've gotten good accuracy in 41 and 44 mag but you have to match it with a primer that gets it to burn well.CCI 350 or Fed mag are usually hot enough.Lil-gun was designed with shotgun primers in mind which are quite hot and lil-gun burns very well in long barrels.It is a progressive burning powder and the 357's just don't have enough weight to get it to burn that way except in a long rifle barrel.I've heard 15 grains lil-gun is very accurate with a 180 grain boolit in a lever action rifle.

[Bad Flynch]

I have had exceptional results with Lil'Gun in the .45 Colt and .454 Casull. However, it plainly likes heavy bullets and near-maximum loads. When loaded down it gets dirty, too.

I did try it in a .357 Magnum with 125 grain HPs. I loaded maximum loads, because it was one of those Ruger 5-shot, snub-nosed revolvers, bobbed hammer and all. Lil'Gun was terrible in this application. I got spattered with unburnt powder, the gun was filthy after only a few rounds, and I was generally unhappy. Stick to hot loads and heavy bullets.

[Blammer]

OAL for the loaded 200 gr is 1.760

[Bass Ackward]

OAL for the loaded 200 gr is 1.760

Computer say that this is sortta hot at 41,000 but I don't have a lot of factors programed. But you can get 80% burn down to a 6" barrel and this is 91% out of 24.

[BluesBear]

Does anyone except me wonder why Hodgdon doesn't show data for LilGun in any cartridge smaller than .41 Magnum?

Perhaps they don't show it in .357 Magnum because it's not as well suited as other powders?

[rugerman1]

Does anyone except me wonder why Hodgdon doesn't show data for LilGun in any cartridge smaller than .41 Magnum?

Perhaps they don't show it in .357 Magnum because it's not as well suited as other powders?

huh? http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[BluesBear]

I only use paper loading manuals so I can have it open for reference on the loading bench while loading.
And none of my Hodgdon manuals up through 2006 show Lil'Gun in anything smaller than .41 Magnum.

[44man]

I down loaded the .357 loads from the Hodgden site. I guess they worked them up after the manuals were published.

[BluesBear]

Probably but I still think it's funny that it took them over four years to get around to it.

I only reload 19 different cartridges (most of them handgun) so I'm no expert. I wish there was one powder that was the best in all of them but sadly there isn't.
Some powders simply aren't suited for certain cartridges.


I recently saw a post where someone was bemoaning that there is no data for Alliant 410 powder in handguns. The burning charastics and pressure curve simply make it unsuitable for handgun use.

[Newtire]

Works good in 32WCF, 218 Bee, some others that I've tried but don't recall. Haven't had ANY issues other than good accuracy with previously unobtainable velocity at lower pressures.

HI Brett,

Just noticed you mentioned .32wcf using lil' gun. Wondered if you might divulge what kind of loads we're talking? I have a Ruger Buckeye in that caliber-if you're talking .32-20 WCF.

[1Shirt]

I have had it with Lil Gun and K-Hornet. I stayed within recommended limits and blew primers, messed up the extractor on my #1, etc. It was ok in the cool of the morning, but went to hell when it warmed up. Called the mfg. and asked why it was not listed as temp sensitive. Was told that it wasn't. Guess I will try the rest of the can with 357.
1Shirt!:coffee: :coffee:

[Bret4207]

HI Brett,

Just noticed you mentioned .32wcf using lil' gun. Wondered if you might divulge what kind of loads we're talking? I have a Ruger Buckeye in that caliber-if you're talking .32-20 WCF.


I can't recall off the top of my head. Check the Hogdon website. It works good for low pressure and good velocity. Wish I owned one of those Buckeye 32's!

[Newtire]

I can't recall off the top of my head. Check the Hogdon website. It works good for low pressure and good velocity. Wish I owned one of those Buckeye 32's!

OK Brett will check the website. Getting alot of good info on the loading of .32-20 & will let you know how it goes in the next couple of weeks.

I have Scrounger to thank for giving me the lead on the Buckeye. Hats off to Scrounger!