PRS Big Lube 45-70 worthless in a Browning/Miroku 1886

[OD#3]

BIG disappointment the day before yesterday at the range. I'd spent the better part of two days making a compression plug and then loading 70 grain charges of FF Goex behind the PRS Big Lube .45-70 bullet. Of course, this was after spending hours casting up several hundred projectiles in my new mould from Big Lube. It turns out that my Browning/Miroku '86 SRC, in typical fashion, is nearly throatless. Although it chambers 420 grn. LRNFP's just fine, the stubby Big Lube offering (mine weigh about 375 grains) has an ogive that's just too fat. After several tries, I managed to get one round chambered and fired but decided not to try and bully the mechanism through the remaining rounds. The few aborted attempts had heavy land markings on the bullet ogive. Good thing I only loaded up 20 rounds. Since I don't want to go through the trouble and expense of reaming out the throat, I guess I have to find someone with a more generous leade who wants to shoot up the remaining 19 rounds. Or maybe someone will trade me 19 empty cases for them... Its a shame. That bullet looked so promising for black powder, and it was so much shorter than my 420 grain bullets, I never dreamed it would be incompatible with my 1886.

[Lead pot]

If that rifle is like my friends it will most likely have a .456 groove like his rifle.
I pulled out the Lyman PH 457-121 PH and cast 50 for him and he ordered his own mould.
The Parker Hale mould drops out at .456" . It might be a little heavy for you if your one of those that like to shoot pistol bullets in a .45-70, it drops out at 475 grains but it is a find shooter in his 86.

[Gunlaker]

I've been using the 457193 seated to 2.52" and it seems to work reasonably well.

Chris.

[OD#3]

Guys, I really appreciate your suggestions on which moulds have worked for you in 86's. Thanks. I think, based on pictures of the 457193, that the 420 grainers I've been using with smokeless loads are from that mould. An acquaintance gave me about 100 of them years ago as scrap lead. They were very hard and miked at .458, and as I didn't have a 45-70, I was just adding them to my melt occasionally. They were pre-lubed with some hard blue lube, so I tumble-lubed them for good measure before loading them up. Incidentally, my smokeless loading was a bit hot. They clocked at about 1800 fps, but despite this I didn't really encounter any leading trouble from them. I wish I knew what alloy they were, because they shot really well, and I'd never have thought I could drive a PB that fast without trouble.

[cajun shooter]

The Big Lube bullets have in my testing not had enough bearing surface to make good Long Range bullets. The bearing surface is taken away to make room for the extra large lube grooves. This also leads to a bullet with a very large nose area. You would be better served to try the rifle style of bullet.
The Big lube design on all bullets is made to supply enough BP lube to the barrel to prevent fouling.
This is just a guess but most shooters of the Big Lube style bullets use a 20-1 alloy with a 10 BHN.
That only holds true for shooters using BP charged loads with BP lube.

[Baja_Traveler]

All my Big Lube moulds - the .357, 38-55 and my .45 are intended for shorter range shooting (up to 200 yards) and work great for that. I cast them in 20-1 or a bit harder with great results. My .45 mould doubles as a boolit for my Old Army, and when I cast for that, I cast 30-1 alloy for ease of loading.

[John Boy]

Back in the initial days when I knew spit about BPCR, my first rifle was the H&R BC. My first 45-70 bullet was the Big Lube 500gr, actually 485grs that was designed too long (now discontinued) so that only 52grs of BP could be poured and compressed like a brick. So I loaded 20 with Triple Seven and off to the range for my 1st BPCR shoot with the H&R having a vernier on it - my best friend told me I needed a vernier otherwise it wouldn't group worth a darn

100 yds - shot 15 rounds to get my 100yd base setting on the rifle. Might add, I had previously made a trajectory table with numbers that 'I hoped would be correct' :violin:

Had 5 rounds left - Ah, what the heck, might as well expend them on the 600yd range like the real BPCR distance the 'big boy's shoot at.

Flipped to the trajectory page for the BC - yep, 153 MOA on the vernier says I'll shoot center hits every time![smilie=s:

There was a club member next to me shooting high bore with about $10,000 of rifle and equipment. Felt a tad embarrassed with a $300 rifle and not knowing s*** from Shinola. Anyway, with my cheap $8.95 rifle rest and a sandbag, I proceeded to fire the 5 rounds as fast as I could aim and pull the trigger.

Now, that day was in the 90's, bright sun and the mirage was running fast (I had no idea then what the effect of mirage was shooting long distance) and my scope could detect a bullet hole if it had to...

The club member couldn't see his 308 holes either so we decided to drive to the pit along with Dan, a BPCR club member and a good one

When I saw the target, I was in total amazement ... in the 7 ring, the group was about 7" wide and 2 3/4" high ... with 3 holes that could be covered by a silver dollar. The guys were in total amazement too. I tried several times later to replicate the group with the Big Lube bullet & Triple Seven and couldn't even get close

I have subsequently shoot the H&R with a good bullet and BP reload and trust me, the Green Mountain barrel SHOOTS, even out to 1000yds but not with the original '500gr Big Lube' bullet

Then one day, I decided that Big Lube bullets served only 2 purposes: put a large lube smear on the muzzle and their real purpose is for short range shooting. So, I sold everyone that I had purchased and use bullets that have been in existence for decades - for all the calibers that I shoot

[Springfield]

Hmm, JB, sounds like the bullet had potential but you just couldn't fine it's sweet spot again. Not really the bullets fault. And the 45-70 385 grainer(or thereabouts) does have a very fat nose. It works in my Trapdoor and my BC, but not my buddies BC. Too bad it isn't made with a slightly smaller nose, I know a few other guys who could use it then. Every bullet doesn't work in every gun, that's for sure. OD#3, maybe you could crimp the bullet in front of the crimp groove, making it a bit shorter. With soft lead it should stay in place fine. I made a batch for a friend of mine with the same problem, so I just ran the nose into my Lyman sizer and resized just the nose to see if it would work, and it did. A bit more effort though, have to size every one twice.

[OD#3]

You know, I've considered the "size the nose smaller" option. It seemed like it would be a good deal of work, and I'd be out the cost of a smaller sizing die. As for seating them deeper, I could try that too, but I don't want to lose blackpowder capacity. That one round I managed to get chambered clocked only 1194 fps, and that was with 70 grains of FF compressed just far enough to seat the big lube bullet to the crimp grove. Granted, that was just one round, but I've seen plenty of range reports from people quoting a bit faster velocities with even heavier bullets and 63-65 grains of FF. I don't know how they do it.

[cajun shooter]

They do it with the bullets designed for LR. Try the Saeco 745 mould or look at the Sage Outfitters site. The Saeco 645 is another great mould.

[XTR]

You really should look at the thread I started and posted on for about a yr trying to get a Win-Mir 45-70 to shoot cast, though I was using smokeless. I gave up. I'm now pursuing my BP and cast fix with a C Sharps '74.

Yes, your rifle has a SAAMI chamber, yes it has zero throat, all you get in front of the case is the lead angle to the top of the lands, yes the groove dia is probably about .456.

[Just Duke]

BIG disappointment the day before yesterday at the range. I'd spent the better part of two days making a compression plug and then loading 70 grain charges of FF Goex behind the PRS Big Lube .45-70 bullet. Of course, this was after spending hours casting up several hundred projectiles in my new mould from Big Lube. It turns out that my Browning/Miroku '86 SRC, in typical fashion, is nearly throatless. Although it chambers 420 grn. LRNFP's just fine, the stubby Big Lube offering (mine weigh about 375 grains) has an ogive that's just too fat. After several tries, I managed to get one round chambered and fired but decided not to try and bully the mechanism through the remaining rounds. The few aborted attempts had heavy land markings on the bullet ogive. Good thing I only loaded up 20 rounds. Since I don't want to go through the trouble and expense of reaming out the throat, I guess I have to find someone with a more generous leade who wants to shoot up the remaining 19 rounds. Or maybe someone will trade me 19 empty cases for them... Its a shame. That bullet looked so promising for black powder, and it was so much shorter than my 420 grain bullets, I never dreamed it would be incompatible with my 1886.

All I use is SAECO Moulds for my 1886's and will not handle the ogive of most moulds. Here's many many test reports HERE (http://50caliberforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=thewinchester1886forum) with the SAECO moulds.

[XTR]

56169

This is what your chamber looks like. This picture is from TexasMac, it's a cast of the SAAMI chambers that you get in a WinMir, somewhere he talks about the lead angle on these too and it's pretty steep, but I think if you wanted to try paper patching patched to bore that may work pretty well.

Good luck shooting cast in this rifle, maybe you can get it to work, I couldn't get anything from 340 to 405 to shoot in it so I gave up and ordered 500 jacketed 405 Remington bullets from Midway, they shoot great (as in about 1") over 50gr of 3031 for about 1700FPS.

[Chicken Thief]

You could try to size the boolit in the case until it will chamber and see what that brings you.
It might just be that it works.

Dont fl size the finished cartridge just enough that the top of the case thins enough for the round to chamber.

[rr2241tx]

The key to making those Miroku 45-70 BPCR rifles shoot is to start with a bore riding bullet of 500 grains or better and about 65 gr of powder. The bore is .450, groove normally .456. 20:1 or 30:1 both seem to work equally well. It can be done. My shooting partner uses my mould to cast for his Miroku and gets excellent results. That Paul Jones mould drops 30:1 at 586 grains. His gun also shoots a 500 grain Gov't roundnose very accurately. Texasmac did the trigger for him.

[Just Duke]

SAECO 300 GRAIN @ 100 yards
28 Grain of Hodgden 4198.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/S1/DSC_0003-3.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/S1/GU5.jpg?t=1324599401

[Just Duke]

Here's the SAECO #018, 405 grain cast wheel weight samples.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/BP45-702.jpg





Winchester 1886 Take Down 45-70.
Bullets sized to .459 and 28 grains of Hodgden 4198
Here is the SAECO 405 grainer at 30 yards shot resting on my elbows.


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0239.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0238.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/006-7.jpg

[NSB]

We need at least one dumb question a day to show what we know. I'll offer one up: What is involved in correcting this by reworking the chamber? What is the actual cost and how difficult is it? Someone must be able to do this at a reasonable cost. You're taking metal out, not adding it on. I have one of these and went to jacketed to make it shoot.

[Just Duke]

We need at least one dumb question a day to show what we know. I'll offer one up: What is involved in correcting this by reworking the chamber? What is the actual cost and how difficult is it? Someone must be able to do this at a reasonable cost. You're taking metal out, not adding it on. I have one of these and went to jacketed to make it shoot.

Fix the bullet not the rifle. PM me and I'll send you both some SAECO's lube and ready to go..

[NSB]

Duke, I really appreciate the offer but I'd still like to know what would be involved in fixing the rifle. Since I bought this gun over a year ago I've read a lot of posts on the problem with the chamber/lead on this gun. It seems that other brands don't have this problem and shoot cast pretty good. What would it take to make the chamber/lead better? I'm sure you're correct, I'd just like to know the cost of the alternative. Thanks.

[Just Duke]

Duke, I really appreciate the offer but I'd still like to know what would be involved in fixing the rifle. Since I bought this gun over a year ago I've read a lot of posts on the problem with the chamber/lead on this gun. It seems that other brands don't have this problem and shoot cast pretty good. What would it take to make the chamber/lead better? I'm sure you're correct, I'd just like to know the cost of the alternative. Thanks.


We need at least one dumb question a day to show what we know. I'll offer one up: What is involved in correcting this by reworking the chamber? .

Their's nothing wrong with the rifles. They are correct.
If they won't chamber in the gun their using the wrong bullets. I have forum dedicated to the bullets that do work just ask me for a link.
Here you go from the horses mouth on the Winchester/Browning/Miroku all the same entity.
The Browning is like an exact duplicate of the original. Actually when Winchester sent a vintage 1886 to the Japan plant for back engineering. Winchester got it back with two holes in the receiver and ask "what are the two holes for"? Japan plant answers back and said "We don't know. You said you wanted and axact copy so that's what we made you. An exact copy".
Winchester told the Japan plant to not make anymore with the two holes in them.
Duh! Those holes are for the receiver sight. Also they left off the Tang sight hole.
The Winchester with the lawyer safety and the rebounding hammer is an abomination and whoever dreamed that up will burn for it if you know what I mean. John Browning will meet them at the pearly gates with his 4 M2's in a quad mount. That's the only thing wrong with the Winchester. My Browning doesn't have all that on it.
They all need to be sent to Turnbulls and have the lawyer safeties filled in and while there at it, case coloring.


The engineers at SAECO designed the bullets to fit the rifle probably before I was born and I'm 55.
Another thing I might add and I don't want this turning into a flame thread is these large meplat bullets that that someones cobbleing together on Windows Office run pressures through the ceiling and make sure your medical insurance is up to date if you use them. Do a search on lets take one for instance the Marlin 1895. ;) Search Marlin Kaboom and see what you come up with.
We have some ER MD's and Trauma Surgeons that run with us in our local party group and we over here them laughing about the "they say stupid fools" that roll into the ER and make the payments on their huge homes and expensive sports cars.
I know most in the gun industry on a first name basis, partied with them, had them at my home, gone shooting with the during Shot, etc.... Including the former factory rep for Marlin (Matt who lives about 20 min. from me in Sherwood OR.) who got laid off and now is at Safariland. ;)

[Just Duke]

PM me if you guys decide to sell your 1886's.

[NSB]

Duke, I really appreciate the offer but I'd still like to know what would be involved in fixing the rifle. Since I bought this gun over a year ago I've read a lot of posts on the problem with the chamber/lead on this gun. It seems that other brands don't have this problem and shoot cast pretty good. What would it take to make the chamber/lead better? I'm sure you're correct, I'd just like to know the cost of the alternative. Thanks.

I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. Can the gun be altered to make the chamber/lead like a different brand of gun? If so, what's involved adn how much? Seems like it's been indicated in this thread that it can be done but is some problem to do it.

[rbertalotto]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56169&d=1355842696

This is what the chamber looks like in my 45-70 1885 Winchester BPCR..........but the chamber in my 45-70 Winchester 1886 looks nothing like that. It has an actual lead and a throat. The OP is asking about an 1886, not an 1885.

I can not get my 1885 to shoot any bullets I've cast in any lead and any diameter. It simply will; not shoot lead well. The 1886 Lever rifle is a tack driver! Anything I load it shoots great. I'm having a reamer made to the 1886 dimensions and I'm going to rechamber the 1885. If that doesn't work it will be rebarreled to 38-55.........

[XTR]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56169&d=1355842696

This is what the chamber looks like in my 45-70 1885 Winchester BPCR..........but the chamber in my 45-70 Winchester 1886 looks nothing like that. It has an actual lead and a throat. The OP is asking about an 1886, not an 1885.

I can not get my 1885 to shoot any bullets I've cast in any lead and any diameter. It simply will; not shoot lead well. The 1886 Lever rifle is a tack driver! Anything I load it shoots great. I'm having a reamer made to the 1886 dimensions and I'm going to rechamber the 1885. If that doesn't work it will be rebarreled to 38-55.........

Oops, my bad, I read that as 1885 in the OP.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If it has not been stated above resize the noses so they will enter the rifling without to much resistence. Had to do this with my marlin 336 rechambered to 414 Supermag. Picked up about 1/4 inch case space with one caliber boolit still seated in case.
Mike in ILL

[Sgt Red Leg]

NSB, there is a way to alter your rifles chamber. I have not done it yet, but GARCIA has hooked me up w/ "Clements Custom Guns". Their web site has contact info. I am currently waiting for my turn to come up to have the throat/lead modified on my Daughter Browning/Miroku .45-70 rifle. Garcia has had several of his 1886s worked on by Clements and is pleased. In talking w/David (?) at Clements he says they can do the work w/out removing the barrel from the action. When they do ours they are also going to do an action job on it. My Daughters rifle is off the same vintage as mine but has not been shot much. Looks like factory firing only and action is a little stiff. That does not help when shooting at 200 to 300 yards.

We have been shooting 400/405 gr Bear Creek molly lubed boolits over 30 grs. of 5744 with O.A.L. of 2.60" with excellent results. Standard Win. Large rifle primers. My Daughter and I have been using the same load in my 1874 Sharps Montana Roughrider out to 400 yards so far also w/excellent results. We shoot both rifles in SASS side matches and place top three often. She has even taken top shot and beat everyone, men, women, BP, smokeless. At that shoot I came in #2 behind her in Smokeless. I lost another shirt button that day. She tends to do that too me.

Anyway, check out CLEMENTS. As soon as new stock (Macon Gun Stocks) and chamber work are done will post results.

Watch your six !

[Sgt Red Leg]

OH, the A.O.L. on the rounds loaded for the Sharps is 2.64". I found I had to add a bit of crimp to get more complete powder burn.

[OD#3]

Thanks to everyone who helped. I hadn't checked back here in a while, and I had no idea that so many had responded. Thanks especially to Duke Nukem for posting the pictures of your Saeco bullets. They helped me identify the bullets my friend had given me as having been cast in that mould. They shot extremely well in my Miroku. Despite the punishing recoil of the 50 grain IMR 3031 charge, and my other friend's subsequent vow never to shoot my rifle again, he grudgingly admitted that the accuracy was outstanding. Midway USA just happened to have the Saeco #18 double-cavity mould on clearance tonight, and one is now on its way to me along with top punch and sizing die. I bought one of two they had in stock, so if anyone is interested, Midway's price on the remaining one is $103. Incidentally, I tried to salvage my BP loads tonight by running two loaded rounds up to the case mouth into a .44 magnum case sizing die. Although this sized the bullets ever-so-slightly, it still wasn't enough to make them chamber without some difficulty, and it still left faint land marks on the bullet. If anyone here lives in the East Tennessee area and wants to trade some empty 45-70 brass for some BP rounds, PM me. I believe that these would work fine in a Marlin or a trapdoor. Again, they're 385gr. Big Lube bullets lubed with beeswax and olive oil on top of 70 grains by weight of compressed Goex 2f in new Remington cases. Other than some faint land marks on some of the bullet noses (and two with noses ever-so-slightly sized down), they're just dandy.

[Just Duke]

Thanks to everyone who helped. I hadn't checked back here in a while, and I had no idea that so many had responded. Thanks especially to Duke Nukem for posting the pictures of your Saeco bullets. They helped me identify the bullets my friend had given me as having been cast in that mould. They shot extremely well in my Miroku. Despite the punishing recoil of the 50 grain IMR 3031 charge, and my other friend's subsequent vow never to shoot my rifle again, he grudgingly admitted that the accuracy was outstanding. Midway USA just happened to have the Saeco #18 double-cavity mould on clearance tonight, and one is now on its way to me along with top punch and sizing die. I bought one of two they had in stock, so if anyone is interested, Midway's price on the remaining one is $103. Incidentally, I tried to salvage my BP loads tonight by running two loaded rounds up to the case mouth into a .44 magnum case sizing die. Although this sized the bullets ever-so-slightly, it still wasn't enough to make them chamber without some difficulty, and it still left faint land marks on the bullet. If anyone here lives in the East Tennessee area and wants to trade some empty 45-70 brass for some BP rounds, PM me. I believe that these would work fine in a Marlin or a trapdoor. Again, they're 385gr. Big Lube bullets lubed with beeswax and olive oil on top of 70 grains by weight of compressed Goex 2f in new Remington cases. Other than some faint land marks on some of the bullet noses (and two with noses ever-so-slightly sized down), they're just dandy.

Glad to hear of your success sir. Buy a RCBS collet bullet puller and save the experimental rounds for component's.

[EDG]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56169&d=1355842696

This is what the chamber looks like in my 45-70 1885 Winchester BPCR..........but the chamber in my 45-70 Winchester 1886 looks nothing like that. It has an actual lead and a throat. The OP is asking about an 1886, not an 1885.

I can not get my 1885 to shoot any bullets I've cast in any lead and any diameter. It simply will; not shoot lead well. The 1886 Lever rifle is a tack driver! Anything I load it shoots great. I'm having a reamer made to the 1886 dimensions and I'm going to rechamber the 1885. If that doesn't work it will be rebarreled to 38-55.........

I have two of the Browning 1885 BPCR rifles and they have the same chamber and throat design.
I also have an embarrassing number of other 45-70s including the standard no tang Browning 1885 (non Badger barrel), H&R, Encore, Ruger and Pedersoli and they all have the same throat design. They all shoot lead well if you do not shoot undersize bullets, bullets that are too hard, short light bullets or drive them too fast.
I would never butcher an original chamber without trying a that casts at least .460 dia up to about .462 using 20-1 alloy.