Question on C&R FFL rules for those that have a C&R

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Hi,

This question is for those out there that have a Curios and Relics FFL. My apologies, but I couldn't find an appropriate forum here on this board to post the question.

Can a C&R FFL receive a qualified C&R rifle from out of state for someone else who does not have a C&R FFL? I'm thinking they cannot, but wanted to check with those that have one.

Thank you,

Dave

P.S. To make the situation more clear, an out of state buyer sent me his money order and a signed copy of his buddy's C&R FFL. He wants me to ship a rifle I had for sale to his buddy and he will get it from his buddy. To me, this sounds very much like a straw man purchase and I'm not comfortable with it at all, but wanted to check with C&R FFL holders so I would know the rules/laws related to this.

[arjacobson]

The c&r was going to get the gun and then give/sell it to someone else right away?... Wouldn't be a good idea as the c&r is designed for collectors and not BUSINESS. It would be a pretty gray area as far as I am concerned... I wouldn't do it....just my 2 cents

[Mooseman]

Yes, it is perfectly legal to receive C&R firearms Interstate from a NON-Licensee.
You should get a photo ID from the seller for your Bound Book record.
If it is a C&R Handgun, the shipper may need a copy of your FFL license in order to ship via UPS/Fedex.

Here is a quote from BATFE...
quote:
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Long Guns may be shipped USPS by a Non-Licensee to ANY licensed dealer in any state.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Mooseman,

You're misunderstanding the question. I'm not asking about a C&R receiving from a Non-FFL holder. I'm asking about the C&R receiving the rifle, then turning around immediately and turning it over to a Non-FFL holder.

[Mooseman]

Perfectly Legal
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

A C&R license holder can Buy and then turn around and resell the gun, as long as it is logged in his bound book and he is not transferring it to a prohibited person. Once YOU send it to a Licensed individual , he assumes the liability under the law to follow the regs set forth By BATFE.
I had a C&R Holder get a Mosin for me, BATFE said it was legal .
Rich

[rtracy2001]

Mooseman is spot on.

That said, if it concerns you, ask for a phone number and give the other C&R a call and talk to him to verify that the intended receipient can leagally own a firearm.

[MtGun44]

Legal, but many C&R guys are REAL gunshy, so to speak, and will not do it at all
just to keep a wide gap between their actions and the "edges" of the license.

Bill

[bruce drake]

I've held a C&R for 17 years (due up again for my 6th renewal in the spring) and I would advise the C&R Holder to NOT go through with the purchase. Its up to you as the seller to commit to the sale. I would advise you to tell him to find a local gunshop who does transfers. It sounds like he's trying to get around the typical $25-30 fee from the local gun dealer by having his buddy do him a "deal."

Technically, the 03 FFL (C&R) could "purchase" the firearm from you, log it into his bound book and then transit it out to the other fellow but since the book would reflect a very fast turn-around on the firearm (we are allowed to sell our firearm purchases but ONLY in order to improve the collection or if we have to liquidate our collections) and whenever he lets his license lapse, that book has to be sent into the BATFE for their own records and if they see something like this, it may raise questions that he may not want to answer.

The requirement to return our Boundbooks back to the BATFE is a recent change courtesy of The Patriot Act so the other 03 FFL may not be current on his regs.

Bruce

[Mooseman]

This is straight from BATFE...and their CURRENT web site I posted.

Q: Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/disposition records to ATF if their collector’s license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?
No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearm “business” is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearm importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collectors’ licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.

If I have any question that cannot be answered by the BATFE website I call My local Agent and ask for clarification. They have always either known the answer or researched it and called me back.
There is lots of Misconceptions, Your C&R Regulation book should tell you the answers. This type of sale is even talked about on gunbroker.Com Forums , etc.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

The thing I'm uncomfortable with is the money is coming from one source (The buyer) and the 03 FFL from another. I haven't found anything on the BATF website that makes that crystal clear for me and I've looked there a good bit. In this day and age, if it isn't crystal clear, I feel caution is the better part of valor.

[bruce drake]

ATF Publication 5300.4
Revised September 2005

Subpart H—Records
§ 478.121 General.
(a) The records pertaining to firearms transactions prescribed by this part shall be retained on the licensed premises in the manner prescribed by this subpart and for the length of time prescribed by § 478.129. The records pertaining to ammunition prescribed by this part shall be retained on the licensed premises in the manner prescribed by § 478.125.
(b) ATF officers may, for the purposes and under the conditions prescribed in § 478.23, enter the premises of any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector for the purpose of examining or inspecting any record or document required by or obtained under this part. Section 923(g) of the Act requires licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers,
and licensed collectors to make such records available for such examination or inspection during business hours or, in the case of licensed collectors, hours of operation, as provided in § 478.23.
(c) Each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, and licensed collector shall maintain such records of importation, production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition, whether temporary or permanent, of firearms and such records of the disposition of ammunition as the regulations contained in this part prescribe. Section 922(m) of the Act makes it unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain any such record.

And you are correct we don't HAVE to turn in our boundbooks at the end of the license period (3 years) but the BATFE can and have called people for copies of their boundbooks which we ARE required to maintain even if we allow the license to lapse. The reason I know that is that I was called (actually they called the house as I was deployed to Iraq at the time and it had lapsed during the 15 months I was there) to provide a copy of my book since a C&R pistol I had legally sold to another soldier a few years prior had been stolen from his residence and then used in a crime the next day. THe BATFE traced the pistol back to the importer and then to me as I had purchased it on my C&R 10 years prior. The BATFE asked my wife to provide them with the book to verify my proper trans-out record, but she was smart enough to email me immediately after their phone call. They showed up the next day to the house and got two notarized true-copies of the Acquisition and Disposition pages out of my book for them to have for their file on that pistol.

I still have that book. Its a very nice green leather-bound ledger book and I wasn't about to let them have the book just for them to just chuck the book in the file cabinet after the case was closed. That book resides in a firebox with our other important documents and my wife knows that if I should die it needs to be mailed in to the Records Center to show the disposition of the firearms to my sons.

Bruce

[Mooseman]

The thing I'm uncomfortable with is the money is coming from one source (The buyer) and the 03 FFL from another. I haven't found anything on the BATF website that makes that crystal clear for me and I've looked there a good bit. In this day and age, if it isn't crystal clear, I feel caution is the better part of valor.
Dave,
You need to be in contact with the C&R license holder and get a signed copy of HIS license and where his address listed on it is and send the gun to the listed address. This is the proper way of doing it. After that the ball is in his court.
Rich

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I didn't get money from that C&R holder, so I'm not shipping anything to that C&R holder unless I can find something in writing that says that's "ok."

[Mooseman]

Funny, Thats how it works on gunbroker.com. , Auction arms, Cabelas, etc.
If I buy a gun I pay the seller and send a signed copy of my Receiving FFL to them, they in turn send the gun to the FFL dealer.
I am done here.

[462]

This kind of transaction does not fall within the intent and purpose of a C&R license. The buyer and C&R licensee are seemingly trying to bypass whatever restrictions (local or state laws, convicted felon, illegal alien, terrorist watch list, etc.) that prohibit the buyer from either possessing or buying a gun.

While shipping the gun to the C&R licensee is certainly legal, the admitted quick transfer of it to a non-licensee, as well as your knowledge of it, could be potentially illegal. This is not something that I, as an 11-year C&R holder, would ever want to become involved in. What if this potential transaction is an ATF set-up? Is the ATF monitoring the licensee because he's done this before?

Aside: I know an 01 licensee (dealer) who has reported such infractions to the ATF.

[waksupi]

When you ship to another FFL licensee, he is then the responsible party when it leaves his hands.

[bruce drake]

Funny, Thats how it works on gunbroker.com. , Auction arms, Cabelas, etc.
If I buy a gun I pay the seller and send a signed copy of my Receiving FFL to them, they in turn send the gun to the FFL dealer.
I am done here.

That's legal for an 01 FFL but not an 03 FFL.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

This is odd. I sent the guy an email last night requesting an 01FFL to ship to or it he couldn't come up with one, an offer to return his money. Before now, he'd been quick to respond (less than 1/2 an hour) to an email via his cell phone (tapatalk), but he's not responded to this most recent email I sent. I know it's a Thanksgiving weekend, but sure seems odd the guy's not responding when he had been responding so quickly and I have his money order.

[junkbug]

Go with your gut. From the beginning, you did not like the smell of this deal. You are not required to sell anything, especially as no real contract was made. I would not even consider a sale from this point on.

If you have any mis-givings at all, don't do it.

[gewehrfreund]

My opinion as a C&R license holder:

DO NOT complete this transaction. Unless you got the request/money from the out-of-state C&R licensee, this basically IS a strawman purchase. While it might be technically "legal" to do this, sooner or later, you will find a BATFE higher authority who would be more than willing to take out both you and the C&R holder for this activity. It's not worth it, and for us C&R holders, just provides the antis and gun-hostile politicians more reasons to restrict/eliminate the entire C&R license. We happily fly under most of the "gun issue" radar because we do things legally, and are less likely to be tempted to go astray, like some less-than-ethical, greedy 01FFL holders.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

My gut says either the guy provides me with an 01 FFL signed license copy or I send him his money back if he can't or won't. I'm not worried about moving a Mosin M44, they're not that pricey and this is a nice one.

[smkummer]

Most likely in this case the buyer is just trying to save a little money on regulations. He already has to pay shipping and some FFL's want up to $35 to do paperwork. So on a $100 gun if he pays shipping and FFL, this gun is now $150. His buddy might just have him buy lunch. If you send it to a C&R, I don't know how you could be violated. You ARE following the letter. So does ATF want all of us to live in fear of what someone else might do? I have bought and sold in one day or less to improve my collection all the time legally, its called a 2 day weekend gun show. FWIW, I have a friend with ATF and asked him about this type of transaction and he said it was by the book. There is no timeline stated for transactions. Again, think about a weekend gun show. just my .02

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

This isn't a weekend gun show. The firearm will cross state lines and the money came from one guy, the license from another.

[rtracy2001]

This is odd. I sent the guy an email last night requesting an 01FFL to ship to or it he couldn't come up with one, an offer to return his money. Before now, he'd been quick to respond (less than 1/2 an hour) to an email via his cell phone (tapatalk), but he's not responded to this most recent email I sent. I know it's a Thanksgiving weekend, but sure seems odd the guy's not responding when he had been responding so quickly and I have his money order.

Not really that odd at all. Try to look at it from this point of view:
99% of people who don't have an 03, or aren't really big into guns, won't know the difference between an 03 and an 01 (or even know that there is such a thing as categories of FFLs). All he knows is his buddy has an "FFL" and somehow that isn't good enough for the seller that he has never met face to face and now has his money. In his situation, I would be scrambling to see what recouse I had on voiding the MO. From his point of view, you may look like a scammer (offer to return the MO due to a problem with the receiving FFL, then somehow the MO gets "lost" in the mail.) It takes a little while to research things like that before replying.

If you are not willing to go through with the sale anymore, you need to CALL him and explain what is going on, no emails, txt or whatever. You will probably have to explain the difference between an 03 and 01 FFL, and why this deal looks sour to you. Remember, since he purchased the MO, he is already out some money, even if you send the MO back (the purchase price is not refundable in most cases). I would feel obligated to send some extra $$ to make that loss right, just don't tell him if you plan on doing that or he might think you are Nigerian royalty.

By the letter of the law, this deal is probably legal, on the edge, but legal. The MN isn't realy high on the list of desireable guns for a straw purchase / to commit a crime with, so odds are this guy is legit and it is just a misunderstanding.

[madsenshooter]

So the big hangup here, correct me if I'm wrong, is that someone other than the C&R sent you the money. I can understand not wanting to ship it to the C&R in that case. If the C&R was such a buddy, the buyer should have paid him, and the C&R should have paid you and provided a copy of the license himself. However, I also see Mooseman's point. You'd be a nonlicensee shipping interstate to a C&R, and that's legal. Did you try to contact the C&R? The buyer might have a few copies of that license for all we know. I'd contact the C&R, and if it was ok with him, ship to the address on his license. What transpires between the C&R and the buyer is their transaction, and they would have to worry about the legalities of it.

[dabsond]

Sounds like a straw purchase. Offer to ship to a FFL01 where he can do the transfer.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Sounds like a straw purchase. Offer to ship to a FFL01 where he can do the transfer.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

this is exactly what I have done

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

What I'm hearing from every single man in this thread that states he has a C&R is to NOT ship the gun, get the guy to either send an 01FFL copy or refund his money if he cannot. Seems like good advice to me and I'm going to follow it.

Could be a straw man type purchase, could be a BATF sting operation. In any case, it doesn't "feel" right to me and I'm not going to take a risk, not in this political climate. Easy enough to say ship it when it isn't one's own rear on the line.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

So the big hangup here, correct me if I'm wrong, is that someone other than the C&R sent you the money. I can understand not wanting to ship it to the C&R in that case. If the C&R was such a buddy, the buyer should have paid him, and the C&R should have paid you and provided a copy of the license himself. However, I also see Mooseman's point. You'd be a nonlicensee shipping interstate to a C&R, and that's legal. Did you try to contact the C&R? The buyer might have a few copies of that license for all we know. I'd contact the C&R, and if it was ok with him, ship to the address on his license. What transpires between the C&R and the buyer is their transaction, and they would have to worry about the legalities of it.

Don't have the C&R's phone number or email. Just his shipping address. If I don't him from the buyer by Monday and it's now Sunday, I'm going to return the guy's money and be done with it. The more I think about it, the less I like it.

[Old Iron Sights]

At the very least, you should only be dealing with the C&R but it sounds like you're sticking with an 01.
I read through my book researching this same issue a couple months back. It's not directly spelled out. The only outright reference to a straw-man purchase I found was in relation to filling out an ATF background check for a gun purchase on behalf of someone else (who presumably would not be approved). You can look at this both ways. As a C&R, you are registering the gun and subsequent dispostion according to the rules but in actuality, the C&R is acting as an FFL transfer. Probably boils down to how bad a day your ATF agent is having. There are pitfalls to an 03 license. Best to just play it safe.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Well, after waiting almost a week, got an email from the guy yesterday. Turns out he was "helping" a friend find a M44 and he wasn't the guy buying the rifle, making things even weirder. The guy actually buying the rifle did manage to get an 01 FFL to send me a copy of his FFL via pdf. Checked out the FFL on the BATF website and confirmed it was legitimate, so am now able to ship the rifle, so I'm going to ship the rifle today and feel much more comfortable doing so.

[462]

The proper conclusion, good for you.

The original scenario was a definite strawman purchase.

[atr]

I am in agreement with Bruce Drake and 462...especially 462's statement that this is NOT the intent of the C&R license. And also this part of Moosemans comment:
"not transferring it to a prohibited person"
I would NOT used my C&R in the way you have described