High Copper Alloys- Lets discuss this further

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

So, 357maximum, has a thread going in the huntin' section about a few fellers playing with a high copper alloy.
I want to know more about this, and didn't want to hi-jack that thread any more than it already has been.

The talk was of tinning copper strand wire and then adding it to an alloy till the precipitation point is reached.
I understand the basics of this, but would like to understand more specifics, such as how hot you need to run the melt to do this,
how you tell when the precipitation point has been reached etc. The resulting high strength, but still malleable boolit is what I find very interesting.
I would love to be able to shoot cast in a high velocity hunting boolit without having to resort to paper patching. Jwords are just to expensive anymore,
and I'd like to be more self sufficient anyway. Here in MT, on the west most shots can be had at 100 yards or less, but the east prairie side, shots to 300+ yards can be expected.
1100 fps cast boolits don't shine very well in that situation.
So, any chance of discussion about this turning into a tutorial?

[Lefty SRH]

I've been playing with the higher copper contant alloys but I haven't done the copper wire tinning. Someone will chime in soon, I'm sure.

[John in WI]

Could you post a link to the original thread? I tried the search function and didn't come up with anything.
I've been trying to find information on lead/copper alloys. And the sources either seem to say that it's an impurity to be avoided, or that in small doses it toughens the alloy (which I would be interested in doing). I'm curious to know how it works. If it's just a matter of tinning stranded wire and mixing it in, it might be worth playing with! I have some heavy copper wire, but the individual strands are about 0.1mm. So the actual surface area of copper is enormous. So it's a matter of making a copper/tin alloy, and then dissolving that in the lead?

[runfiverun]

he is talking about tinning stranded speaker wire.
you need tin in the alloy to precipitate the copper and help keep it in suspension.
the copper forms a matrix on the skin of the boolit as it cools.
a decent alloy is 2% tin added to ww's and .5% copper added.
a really good/hard copper alloy jim might be interested in is 3% copper 7% antimony and 10% tin if you want it really hard adding 1% zinc will take the alloy even further.
you'll want to cover the alloy and run the heat up closer to 800-f for this one, and keep the mold right on the edge of frosting [about 380-f]

[docone31]

You will need acid flux to enable the precipitant

[375RUGER]

The solubility of Cu in Sn:

0.7% at 440*F notice this is a common lead free solder compostition Sn-Cu
1.5% at 482*F
2.7% at 572*F
4.5% at 662*F
6.8% at 752*F

use a fine stranded copper conductor it will go faster.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

While the info here is part of the equation, the equation is still missing!
Step 1
step 2
step 3
etc.
or is there a place I can find this info? ie, Precipitating copper into lead for dummies?

this is the thread that got me thinking
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171783-7mmTHOR-7TCU-Carbine-Venison

[375RUGER]

One of the biggest problems encountered while soldering with lead-free, read high tin content solders, is the dissolution of the copper that you are bonding, i.e. wire, pcb traces. In other words, the copper dissolves into the tin to the point that the traces and copper wire get thinner.

The copper has an affinity for the tin.

Best thing you could do is get some pure tin and some fine stranded copper wire(something like 44 gauge), heat the pot up to 750 and start dissolving. Weight out the wire according to how much tin you have, let's say about 5% and only add that amount to the pot and see if it disappears. then send a sample to the guy doing the testing in the classifieds.

[I'll Make Mine]

Hmm. Homemade bronze bullets, with homemade bronze? That's what you're making when you alloy copper and tin, after all...

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

OK, I'm starting to get the picture.
So the railroad babbit mentioned in the thread I linked is just a "base" to start with, to get the copper absorbed?
I have tin,
Are you cutting the wire into certain lengths, like little 1/2 inch pieces or anything?
I assume you separating the strands out to help with the precipitation?

[375RUGER]

OK, I'm starting to get the picture.
So the railroad babbit mentioned in the thread I linked is just a "base" to start with, to get the copper absorbed?
I have tin,
Are you cutting the wire into certain lengths, like little 1/2 inch pieces or anything?
I assume you separating the strands out to help with the precipitation?

That's the idea. Cutting it up would be beneficial. if you cut the wire I mentioned it will seperate itself. It is composed of 216 strands of .004" diameter wire. 30 minutes at temp will probably be enough. You will know when it's done the copper wire will quit disappearing.
I just checked rotometals for babbit material and the Sn-Sb-Cu alloy is $17/# about the same as pure tin.

[357maximum]

How hot do I get the babbit in order to make this happen....in a semi dark space you will see the lead has a slight red glow to it.........do this outside you are beyond the offgassing point of lead.

WHEN I DO THIS:

I add CLEAN/SHINY AND NEW 11 GAUGE multistranded grounding wire(like the one going from your service panel to the ground rod outside your home)...much bigger than speaker wire BTW. I found the smaller speaker/lampcord wires want to do to much sailing around the pot before they dissolve. The physical weight of the heavier wire helps.....both will work but I am all about easy.

The high tin railroad babbit that the copper is being added to is a seperate "smelt" operation. I have found a thin stainless steel mixing bowl on top of my turkey burner to do the best job. Heat the bowl/babbit til it is HOT. Lay the 6 inch long stranded wire in the melt holding on to the tail with pliers. When the wire is HOT swish it around in a can of paste flux. Dip it back into the melt and it should now be all coated and tinned except on the pliers end. When you are sure it is tinned really good put the wire back into the paste flux and get a good bunch of paste on it. Now drop the wire into the babbit and stir until it is gone....this will take a few minutes. REPEAT this procedure until the babbit will not take anymore wire and starts to form oatmeal on top of the melt. You are now at the saturation/precippitation point...whatever you wanna call it. With the heat as high as it will go flux it again with the paste and scoop off anything that does not look like good alloy. TADAA, you now have copper enriched babbit. I use 5% by weight of this mixed into my 50/50 ww/PB alloy and it seems to work well...really well when one is pushing the limits and does not want a boolit that detonates when it hits fleshy critters one wishes to eat. It just happens to have the trait of being able to take pressure better in the barrel too.....which = better accuracy at high pressure/velocity. WIN/WIN


This is not a magic boolit btw...YOU STILL NEED CONSISTENCY IN EVERY OTHER ASPECT FROM INGOT TO LOADED ROUND. YOU ALSO NEED TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT POWDER FOR YOUR BARREL LENGTH TO GET YOU WHERE YOU WANNA GO. THIS ALLOY IS ANOTHER TOOL TO ADD TO THE BOX, NOT A GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD.


yOU WILL ALSO NEED TO CAST A BIT WARMER THAN NORMAL TO GET NORMAL RESULTS USING THIS CU/ALLOY. A lee dripO'matic is not the tool for the job. I ladlecast with a 40 pound capacity homemade steel pot sitting directly on my turkey fryer burner. I then turn a few degrees and drop them into a bucket of water.

I hope the above is some clearish mud...holller back if you need more. Another option is ROTOMETALS if you do not wanna play alchemist in your yard.

[geargnasher]

High-amperage electricity is also handy for dissolving copper wire directly and quickly into tin/lead alloy.....and making extremely hazardous fumes.

Gear

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I then turn a few degrees and drop them into a bucket of water.



Your water quenching these on top of adding the copper? How freaking hard are these :mrgreen:
I guess, in thinking about you other posts, the copper doesnt do so much to harden as strengthen the alloy correct?

Would oven heat treating work?

I do like the "voodoo" aspect of this >:-)

[357maximum]

Your water quenching these on top of adding the copper? How freaking hard are these :mrgreen:
I guess, in thinking about you other posts, the copper doesnt do so much to harden as strengthen the alloy correct?BINGO
Would oven heat treating work?YES

I do like the "voodoo" aspect of this >:-)



You are asking the wrong question......it is not how "hard" it is????....it's how "tough" is it while remaining mallable???????........................there is the question you need answered. The answer is one that Goldilocks can explain better than I.


. Ceramic is HARD but it would not make a great bullet.

I am not sure about VOODOO....pretty basic chemistry in action. I have been told that my KungFu is strong, but I have no idea where I rank in the voodoo arena. If you wanna play with voodoo you need to pop up a few threads to the LUBE area....there is where the voodoo lies. PB+SN+SB+CU is not voodoo it is making the best use of what God has given us to play with. Playing with other things he gave you may make you go blind....or so I am told.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

So once I get the copper into the tin, then I can alloy those results with the lead or do it all at once,
alloy the copper into the tin, and then maybe cool that down a little and add the lead and make a batch all at once.
I appreciate the patience with my greenhorniness :)

[357maximum]

I have never added the 50/50 to the babbit/copper mix while still molten....I do not see why you could not do it that way though.

I add the little baby ingots to my 40LB batch of 50/50 when I am ready to make a run of boolits. It is just easier for me to keep track of how much of what goes where that way and that is why I do it that way. Whatever works for you....do it.

[375RUGER]

I tried it last night just to see how well the wire would incorporate. I had on hand about a 1/2# 96.5 Sn 3 Ag .5 Cu solder. Melted it in the sauce pan. Dipped about 1250 strands of 2" length .004" wire into some lead free tinning flux, stirred it into the melt and it disappeared in a flash. After I add a little more Cu I just have to decide what exactly I want to use this Sn-Cu-Ag for.

[badgeredd]

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[rockrat]

Been using a copper alloy for my high speed stuff for a few years. Started off at 3% Cu, but down to a bit less than 1% now and everything seems to be OK. Have some 22's to cast and try out when it warms up.

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[375RUGER]

rockrat,

You mention something I probably should clarify. Our boolit alloys have less than 1/2% copper in the final mix. Our copper enriched babbit has approximately 6-7% copper content. It really doesn't require high copper content in the final boolit alloy to see a significant difference in boolit performance. I am guessing that 1/2% my well be the level of diminishing returns, but have yet to prove that part out.

Edd

Could you clarify just a little more? According to the postings the alloy is approximately is 6.5% Sn, 1.9% Sb, .5% Cu . Are you mixing up something different? Adding superhard for more Sb?
Just asking since to get .5% Cu a lot of Sn is added to do this.

[madsenshooter]

The alloy I use for 2300fps loads in my 6x45 has only .25% Cu. I know it will got faster without leading but I think I had a bullet fit problem that NOE helped me solve. I couldn't get the accuracy I wanted at the velocity I wanted. I've not gotten back to testing, and haven't done any Cu enriching to see if I can get more, but the casting is starting. This is all Townsend Whelen's fault for spilling the beans on Ideal #1 alloy!

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[357maximum]

Since I am not the charts and graphs type I will say this.

If you take Edd's railroad babbit and put pre-tinned copper grounding wire into it til it takes no more (about 7%) then add 3/4 to 1 lb ofthat "spice alloy" to 20lbs of pure lead and 20lbs of coww you can do amazing things with it. The only thing that is abnormal about casting with it is that one must run their temps up a bit over normal 50/50 mix. There is no excessive drossing, there is no wierd things going on....it just plain works.

I guess I am the type that takes real world experience over wikipedia rugurgita everytime as I know that "I READ IT IN A BOOK" only takes one so far.

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

The solubility of Cu in Sn:

0.7% at 440*F notice this is a common lead free solder composition Sn-Cu
1.5% at 482*F
2.7% at 572*F
4.5% at 662*F
6.8% at 752*F


This is getting interesting now :)
Today, I took 2 pounds of clean 98% tin and melted it my 10 pound pot. Got the temp to 575 degrees, and
started adding acid fluxed copper wire (10 gauge multi-strand) till it wouldn't take any more.
No idea how much by weight as I concluded I wanted to reach the saturation point.
I took about 6-1/2, 8 inch long pieces of wire before it wouldn't take anymore. By the chart above,
I should have a little over 2 pounds of tin enriched with 2.7% copper. In a 20 pound batch
of 50/50, of WW & pure, how much do I want to add? 1-2 % doesn't seem like it would
introduce enough Cu to make it right, but not being a chemist I dont know.
1% would be like 3.2 ounces, 2%-6.4 ounces. Seem reasonable enough?

I gotta thank the guys that are doing this for helping out here, I find this very interesting.
And my goal with this is high velocity hunting boolits, not berm busters.
I shoot 140 grain condoms at 2950fps, in my 280 Remington, I can shoot 5/8" groups at 300 yards,
If I can get anywhere close to this and have performance on deer & antelope I will be very pleased!

[RickinTN]

I'm just now catching up here and I have a question.....or two. If i'm following correctly in an alloy of say 92-4-4 you would end up with a copper content of just under .28%. I think I understand this produces a "tougher" bullet which can be driven at higher velocity than possible without the copper. Does this alloy retain the hardness and malleability properties of the original 92-4-4 without the copper? or are these properties altered as well?
I'm going to find the original thread referenced and possibly some of my questions will be answered there.
Thanks for your help,
Rick

[rockrat]

I am not sure about malleability, but the Cu alloy is definitely harder. You can tell the difference between #2 and the Cu alloy easily. I figure that I am running .5 to .75% Cu. I need to make up a fresh batch. I had rotometals make me some, IIRC, 90-3.5-3.5-3 alloy, so I could blend what I wanted to try. I had read about the #1 alloy and got interested in the Cu alloys.

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[357maximum]

Like Edd......I believe that the added toughness is what is making the magic happen without distrupting the mallability if the alloy too much. Upon ignition it simply slumps less and as it starts it journey with 40 to 50K+ on it's butt the boolit is less likely to do any appreciable skidding. Assuming everything else is done properly/consistently.........I believe that the slump and skidding are what lead alot of people to believe that greased cast boolits have to be babied with thresholds and such. So far this alloy acts like j-words in the non-magnum cases I have launched it from when I do everything else as well as I should.


I believe that "HARDER" is merely a small byproduct of "TOUGHER" and the hardness gained is not the hero....the toughness is.


The only "quirky" thing I have noticed with these alloys when waterdropped is that they keep growing in diameter a bit longer than standard wd'ed 50/50. Say I sized some waterdropped 50/50+0.025% copper/tin enhanced alloy and immediately sized to .287......they will measure .2873 or so immediately after sizing due to springback. Three months later they will measure .2875........6months later they will measure .2878 or so. This is not really an issue unless you seated the boolit to engrave real good at three months of age................as three months later it may be a bit tougher to extract a loaded round. This has actually happened to me in one instance. I am still charting the growth spurts of several boolits made of this alloy to gain a better grasp of when/if they stop growing.

[MT Gianni]

Mike, how soon after casting are you lubing and sizing?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

The only "quirky" thing I have noticed with these alloys when waterdropped is that they keep growing in diameter a bit longer than standard wd'ed 50/50.

This makes me happy, growing boolits.

[madsenshooter]

This what I'm referring to when I mentioned Whelen, and Ideal #1: Suggestions to military riflemen, on page 197, refers to it only as Ideal bullet metal, but gives a composition of 80%Pb, 10%Sn, 7%Sb, 3%Cu.

The babbitt I use has a composition of 74.5% Pb, 10% Sn, 14.75% Sb, .25%Cu, .5%As. It casts at a BHN of 23. It can be a little brittle, probably due to the high Sb levels, but heat treating takes care of some of the brittleness. 357 maximum made mention of 50,000psi loads. This babbitt won't go there. I know when I've reached it's yield point. I get bits of alloy blowing back on the case neck.

It wouldn't take much to alter the babbitt so that one winds up in the neighborhood of what Edd and Max are using. A bit more pure Pb, a bit more, but not much, copper, get the Sn level back up. I've done that in the past, rather unscientifically. Wound up with a big 45 boolit you could hammer down to coin thickness without it breaking, and it took awhile with a big hammer to do that. In 35 caliber, expansion was similar to jacketed bullets. HP on the left, FP solid on the right, shot into wet newsprint at 100yd, velocity around 2100-2200fps.

You guys got me aching to get back on my 6x45 with the new NOE boolit I have. If you all can get 2500fps, I ought to be able to with a lighter bullet than Max is using, but then I have that 1/8 5R Obermeyer to deal with.

Popper, some time ago I found research that had been done in the area of battery plates. From what I read the Cu forms a lattice network with the other elements. Cu at the center. Keeps battery plates from vibrating into pieces.

[357maximum]

Mike, how soon after casting are you lubing and sizing?

I size and seat checks as soon as the boolits are dry to the touch. I lube in slightly oversized dies so that can be done at anytime.

[375RUGER]

I was basing my numbers on the .5% you mentioned in post 21. Before I didn't see how much of "the alloy"357maximum was adding, but now that I know I see the Sn is below 4%.

and I also see that we are looking for .1%-.2% Cu if I'm understanding everyone correctly

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[robroy]

What percentage alloy are you using to cast boolits? If it was stated earlier in the thread I appologise.

[375RUGER]

This is getting interesting now :)
Today, I took 2 pounds of clean 98% tin and melted it my 10 pound pot. Got the temp to 575 degrees, and
started adding acid fluxed copper wire (10 gauge multi-strand) till it wouldn't take any more.
No idea how much by weight as I concluded I wanted to reach the saturation point.
I took about 6-1/2, 8 inch long pieces of wire before it wouldn't take anymore. By the chart above,
I should have a little over 2 pounds of tin enriched with 2.7% copper. In a 20 pound batch
of 50/50, of WW & pure, how much do I want to add? 1-2 % doesn't seem like it would
introduce enough Cu to make it right, but not being a chemist I dont know.
1% would be like 3.2 ounces, 2%-6.4 ounces. Seem reasonable enough?


You added 4' of wire that is approximatly 1.2 oz (WAG). According to bumpo's calc, that's a bit over 3% Cu. So those numbers above are real close not knowing the exact weight of the Cu.
I'd be interested to know if you got the melt to 750* how much more wire it would take.
From Bumpo's calc this is what you'd get adding 3/4# to 20# of 50/50.
Tin % Antimony % Arsenic % Copper % Lead %
3.75% 1.45% 0.12% 0.11% 94.6%

From what I'm reading here that's enough copper to do you some good. The other's more experienced will have to chime in here.

Last night I managed to get about 1/3 oz to dissolve into 6oz of my silver bearing solder, about 5%. I don't know what the temp was since I couldn't get the thermometer into that little puddle. I guess I need to get a good amount of Sn to do this right.

[badgeredd]

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[badgeredd]

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[badgeredd]

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[felix]

Keep in mind that after boolits are made via water dropping et al and sitting for a day or two to settle down a little, put them back into the oven for several hours at 200 degrees. For every hour or so, you will artificially add a week or so of room temp stabilizing. Long boolits should be sized only after fully cured (expanded). ... felix

[357maximum]

The babbitt I use has a composition of 74.5% Pb, 10% Sn, 14.75% Sb, .25%Cu, .5%As. It casts at a BHN of 23. It can be a little brittle, probably due to the high Sb levels, but heat treating takes care of some of the brittleness. 357 maximum made mention of 50,000psi loads. This babbitt won't go there. I know when I've reached it's yield point. I get bits of alloy blowing back on the case neck.

.


I am going to be so bold as to ask a few questions:

1. Have you annealed your brass?
2. Have you tried making your brass from a longer cartridge so that you actually fill the neck with brass in both length and thickness.

Whenever I have had that issue at top end loads them 2 tricks fix it with any of the 50/50+ whatever babbit alloys. My35Whelen brass had this issue, making my brass from 270Win and then annealling made it go away. I form my top end X51, x53, X57 mm loads from military 30/06 or commercial 06 depending on how much thickness I need to gain. It has never failed to help with the lead plated neck/mouth issue the few times I have run into it.


Just tossing the above out there, as you may be right about your alloy not taking the pressure, but my gut tells me otherwise.

[geargnasher]

It seems to me we are talking apples and oranges here. You are using sulfur in your experiment while we are using the tin to help absorb the copper into our alloy. I suspect the sulfur and tin may not be compatible for your purposes. My understanding is sulfur acts as a grain refiner. Keep us posted on getting copper to work into your alloy without the tin. Myself, I'll continue on the path we are on as I am seeing real results in the finished boolits and the velocities we have been able to drive the same boolits. I haven't any intentions of changing our course at this time to include sulfur. Perhaps the smelting book defines the use of sulfur in smelting that would not be applicable to our alloying experiments. I'd guess that since tin, lead, silver and in lesser amounts copper occur together in ore, the sulfur is used as part of the refining operation. For my purposes I don't see sulfur as being relevant.

Edd

Sulfur, like arsenic, IS a grain refiner and breaks up the dentrite lattice so that large shear planes do not form as easily through the alloy under pressure. One of casting's best-kept secrets, and one I rediscovered inadvertently after doing a lot of work with some zink-ed alloy I salvaged using the sulfur extraction method.

I'm interested in how the grain refiners affect water-quenched copper-bearing boolit alloy.


Keep in mind that after boolits are made via water dropping et al and sitting for a day or two to settle down a little, put them back into the oven for several hours at 200 degrees. For every hour or so, you will artificially add a week or so of room temp stabilizing. Long boolits should be sized only after fully cured (expanded). ... felix

Another gem. I just learned this one myself a couple of days ago from an ex-member. Thanks for the tip!

Gear

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

It might popper but without tin, will it fill out properly?
Every post so far has given me a hint more on this stuff.
I appreciate those who have participated.

[Dutch4122]

..............I am interested in the results, accuracy improvement, etc., so I will gladly quit posting here and wait for substantive performance posts............

Ok, sounds reasonable to me that you want "substantive performance posts." Have you read 357maximum's thread in the Hunting with CBs subforum about the two deer he took with the 7mm Thor boolit in his 7mm TCU? He is running Edd's alloy in those loads out of a contender. I also have shot his 21 inch barreled 7mm TCU Contender Carbine with those same loads. I'll let him quote the velocity numbers and group sizes to you. But I can assure you that it works! I know for a fact that he has a few other rifles/loads that have benefitted greatly from Edd's copper enriched alloys. Again, I'll let Michael quote the specific numbers for his rifles.

As for my own work with Edd's alloys I have seen drastic improvement in two rifles that I thought would never shoot high velocity with cast. One is a 1927 Russian Mosin Nagant and the other is a M39 Finnish Mosin. Both rifles went totally wild off the paper with standard 50% wheelweight / 50% pure lead water dropped alloy or water dropped wheelweights when trying to match the velocities (2,600 fps) attained with 180 grain jacketed bullets. Following Edd's instructions to mix a small amount of his railroad babbit with pure lead and clip on wheel weights water dropped I was able to get both of these rifles shooting 4" @ 100 yards with issue iron sights and the same 2,600 fps loads. I realize that 4" at 100 yards will not win any benchrest competitions; but, consider that with all other alloys tried the same boolit/powder combinations were producing wild shots that flew off into space without even touching the target frame at 100 yards. That tells me that Edd is on track with his alloys and knows what he is doing.

I have a Smith & Wesson Model 625-6 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP. I was having a problem with skidding as the front band of my 45-270-Ohaus Group Buy boolit entered the rifling which was leading and degrading accuracy quickly. I had tried 50/50 coww/pb water dropped (BHN 22) with no improvement. I decided to try one of Edd's alloys water dropped (BHN also 22) in this gun using the same boolit. Results were exactly like I had hoped for and more. When I fired the 1st group it was stacking them at 25 yards. The bore showed no signs of leading; and what's more over the course of the 1st 50 rounds I noticed that the alloy was cleaning out the grooves of gunk I had previously missed. The result was sharper and better defined lands.

Another area where Edd's copper enriched alloys show improvement is in my pistol caliber lever action carbines. This summer we where shooting my Marlin 1894ss .44 Magnum at 282 yards hitting a 12" high by 8" wide bell on demand. The load was a BRP 434640-GC propelled by 24 grains of Alliant 300MP. The alloy was Edd's orignal 50% COWW / 50% PB + 1 lb. of his babbit in a 40 lb pot. This gun has always displayed very good accuracy at 100 yards; I just never thought of it as a 300 yard gun before. Also, my Win/USRAC M-94 in .357 Magnum with Williams Foolproof receiver sight is much improved by the same alloy in the Mihec 360640-PB over 14.5 grains of 2400. Tin cans at 100 yards are now so easy it's boring and 2" groups are the norm from a carbine that I was lucky to get 4" or 5" at 100 yard from in the past.

The examples I have given above are what I would call substantial improvement over previous performance by these guns. I have seen nothing yet that would lead me to believe Edd is nothing less than right on track here.

[runfiverun]

yes edd is on the right track.
there is, at some point, most likely gonna be another step.

[338RemUltraMag]

I would like to give this lead a try, could I get a percentage breakdown of components? I am going to be shooting a 416 Rigby out to 400 yds or so with a 450 gr cast pill, and think tuis lead alloy may be what I am looking for.

If it was posted earlier I am sorry but I didnt quite completely follow. There is a lot of good usable info here and takes me a few reads to soak it all in!

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

. Most of our changes have been because of an idea that was born from real world results of other ideas. Clear as mud?

Edd

While not quite clear as mud, Edd, what has happened here
is you guys that are playing with this, have brought some of
us up to speed with the concept, ideas, and starting points
to begin our tinkering process. I could see from the onset of
this thread that was no set rule yet. I was looking for
enough info to get started on my own path with this and
several contributors to this thread have gotten me to
that point.

I've copied and pasted many of the posts here and Edds PMs into
word document for a consolidation of ideas for reference.
Thank you all for contributing

[338RemUltraMag]

We have been working with the babbit addition to our boolit alloy for a couple years plus so if we're a little unclear, I'd not be surprised. Like I said earlier, we have been toying with this stuff and experimenting along the way. Some of the developements are fairly recent...some are not.
Since there are 4 of us working on these ideas, one can expect that each of us has worked on it in varying degrees for various purposes. My goal has been to get a lead alloy one can shoot fast and accurately without any jacket, paper or copper. Mike's goal has been the same with the addition of performance on game. We've tried different alloys, both water dropped and air cooled. Mike's use of the copper enriched alloys on game has been the proof of the pudding, so to speak. The copper content is not all that high, less than 1/2% but it really seems to be making a noticeable difference.

I used an alloy this last summer of 10 pounds COWW, 4 3/8 pounds pure lead, 9 ounces #3 Rorometals Supertough babbit, which should be near 3.5% tin, 3.15% antimony, 0.3% copper, 0.17% arsenic, with the rest lead. I was using this alloy in a 416 wildcat with approximately 48,000 psi peak pressure. This is what I call, a balanced alloy, meaning the Sb and Cu total % nearly equal the Sn. My measured velocities were a bit over 2300 fps with a 347 grain boolit and was getting 1-1.25" groups at 100 yards. The long range results were on metal swingers and such at 300 yards seemed consistent. I was able to hit the swinger consistently at 300 yards, but we weren't in a situation where we could put rounds on paper. I have no reason to believe the accuracy changes any at longer ranges. This really wasn't a velocity test, but was a test of peak pressure performance. My next tests will be with faster, smaller boolits with higher operating pressures...likely 7mm-08 and 30-06.

I cannot emphasize enough, we are experimenting and are constantly modifying our ideas as we go. Most of our changes have been because of an idea that was born from real world results of other ideas. Clear as mud?

Edd

Thanks Edd!

I am eventually looking for on game performance but have a tough time thinking that a 416 hole needs any help. I will pull the numbers together and see what I come up with.

Thanks again
Joshua

[GabbyM]

I have an acetylene torch. Plus a little bit of attitude.

If I were to hold copper wire over a pot of molten lead or molten 50/50 solder. Could the torch melt it into the pot? Or would I just drop copper BB’s into the melt? My thought is to angle the torch up and away from the lead so not to vaporize lead.

I’ve a five gallon bucket about full of ingots I made from scrap mystery solder. Works well and best I can figure by weight is close to 50/50 or 60/40 with 40% tin.

I’ve used and have some lead free solder. Has something like .5% or .05% copper. Stuff works miracles in alloy for little and big bullets. All I can figure is it’s the trace of copper.

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[357maximum]

I have an acetylene torch. Plus a little bit of attitude.

If I were to hold copper wire over a pot of molten lead or molten 50/50 solder. Could the torch melt it into the pot? Or would I just drop copper BB’s into the melt? My thought is to angle the torch up and away from the lead so not to vaporize lead.

I’ve a five gallon bucket about full of ingots I made from scrap mystery solder. Works well and best I can figure by weight is close to 50/50 or 60/40 with 40% tin.

I’ve used and have some lead free solder. Has something like .5% or .05% copper. Stuff works miracles in alloy for little and big bullets. All I can figure is it’s the trace of copper.

You nailed the "dropping copper bb's into the pot" anology dead on, the copper must contact the lead alloy to work and you must get the alloy hot enough to offgas or close to it with a lead alloy. That is WHY the tin alloy is used to make a "SWEETENER" for the final mix. When I was adding copper directly to the semi finished mix I had to use glowing bright alloy and put direct heat from a rosebud tip on the torch to make anything happen.......adding the pretinned wire to high tin mixes with paste flux is 5000% easier and proably alot safer too. I am not saying there is no other way but the pretinned wire added to high tin alloy is damn near foolproof....I stopped looking for other methods after that lightbulb went on.



As far as final mix percentages go....them experiments are still evolving and I am sure there is a ton to learn yet. I have even been working/devising another test method to work on these alloys that should yield a glimpse of how tough and how mallable a finished alloy will be without actual impact testing....it is kind of like BHN with a few twists.....the method/devise is still not complete and I am still not happy with my contraptions. I will share when/if the methodology pans out or I win a Rube Goldberg award....whichever comes first. :lol:

[madsenshooter]

GabbyM,

Adding copper has been done as you describe, but we have moved to adding it to the high tin babbit with nearly 0% lead. The main reasons are one, it is safer and two, it is easier to tin the copper and super heat the tin to add the copper. We have gotten better results adding the copper to the babbit too.

Edd

Edd, any babbitt marked as Genuine doesn't have lead in it. Sn, Sb, Cu. But the Sn content varies. I've been buying some stuff on ebay that's at least equal to Rotometal's #1 at 90-92% Sn. The lady must have a boxcar of it stashed away, and has no idea of its value. She's been selling an ingot every week for about 6 years. It's Marine Engine made by United American Medals. I got several over the years, when the price is right. I think I got a 4# bar for $9.99 once, and she sold me a second one at the same price!

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[GabbyM]

You nailed the "dropping copper bb's into the pot" anology dead on, the copper must contact the lead alloy to work and you must get the alloy hot enough to offgas or close to it with a lead alloy. That is WHY the tin alloy is used to make a "SWEETENER" for the final mix. When I was adding copper directly to the semi finished mix I had to use glowing bright alloy and put direct heat from a rosebud tip on the torch to make anything happen.......adding the pretinned wire to high tin mixes with paste flux is 5000% easier and proably alot safer too. I am not saying there is no other way but the pretinned wire added to high tin alloy is damn near foolproof....I stopped looking for other methods after that lightbulb went on.



As far as final mix percentages go....them experiments are still evolving and I am sure there is a ton to learn yet. I have even been working/devising another test method to work on these alloys that should yield a glimpse of how tough and how mallable a finished alloy will be without actual impact testing....it is kind of like BHN with a few twists.....the method/devise is still not complete and I am still not happy with my contraptions. I will share when/if the methodology pans out or I win a Rube Goldberg award....whichever comes first. :lol:

That’s what I was afraid of with the torch. Believe I’ll just buy some #3 Babbitt after Christmas.

[357maximum]

substantive performance post for Popper:

35Whelen in a gorgeous Nazi marked GEW98 Mauser full blown sporter with a 24 inch 1/14 twist , 225Grain BRP 360-220 boolit @ 2700fps with 3/4 to 1 inch accuracy @ 100yards using H414, H4350, or Hybrid100V. I actually backed this one back down to 2450 fps for deer hunting as it killed deer a bit deader than a venison loving meat eater liked. Six+ members of castboolits have seen this rifle shoot and/or have shot it.

7TCU in a dead stock rhynite stocked TC Contender 21inch carbine, 135Grain flatnose version of the 287377 (7mmTHOR) @ 2512 fps with 1 to 1.125 inch accuracy at 100 yards using 26 grains H3222. Several memebers have also shot this one even though one of those members could not hit the barn from inside it with this gun. :lol: I have turned in several 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups with this combo when I was having a real good day.

I also had a 24 inch barrelled 1891 argentine sporter that would do 2400+ with this alloy too, but I cut the barrel off a bit too short and destroyed the harmonics/muzzle pressure dynamics....now it will only do about 2250fps with appreciable accuracy. I am currently looking for a long original barrel to fix my oopsie on this critter.

I am currently playing with an old D.O.T 1943- 98mauser sporter that has a recrowned original barrel that wears an old Lyman steel reciever sight. I am not sure of the speed as I have not chrono'ed it yet,(I never chrono until the paper targets say I am there)but it has to be up there as I have the old lee group buy C-326-175FN sitting on top of 46 to 47 grains of Hodgdon Hybrid100V and it is doing about 1.75 inches@100 and I know a scope would tighten the group as I am not the worlds greatest peepsight shooter.

shall I continue?

[popper]

357maximum - thanks for the report, especially on the 35. LR-308 carbine, 1:10, is the only thing I've got that will possibly reach 2500 fps. I'm to ~ 2200 so far but want to try the Cu addition. Sooo, this morning I used copper sulphate to add Cu to the alloy. It worked, I'm not poisoned. Started with 2# of #2, @ 710F, dumped the CuSO4 on top. It turns globby white. Then smush it against the side of the pot till it turns to a grey powder. SnSO4. Removed dross and added 2# 96/4 Pb/Sb and added shot for As. Added more CS, til it wouldn't turn grey anymore. Stir and cook for a while then cast some Lee 401175TL. The mold wasn't clean or up to temp but after 12 or so, I got some good boolits, WD half, AC half. Good base ( I flat based it), drive bands and grooves. Must have some oil in the mould as there are a few bad spots. I'll hammer test to compare with other alloys I have and post results. If good, I'll cast some 308s and report on that. Oh, I used root killer, 25% metallic Cu, ~$6/# 99% from the BB HW store. Oh, forgot to mention, I used ~ 2 teaspoons for the 4# of alloy. The transfer rate between Cu & Sn is 1, I'll recover the Sn from the dross later. I celebrated the success with a big PB & bacon sandwich for lunch.

[357maximum]

Peanut butter and bacon...........................well alrighty then. :lol:

Bad news on the DOT1943 8mm. Although I am experiencing great accuracy with this load the de-liar said I am only averaging 2,335FPS. I am going to have to switch up the powder selection a bit on that critter to make it "count". It would make a great deer hunting load if I ever needed one however.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

careful there popper
you might turn into a copper popper :-P

[357maximum]

copper popper....I like that :lol:

Actually I am going to shoot some loads with a bit more HYBRID100V first. I can go with a bit more of it before it will start getting scary. If that fails H414 will be next down the rotor, and then we will go from there. I was able to squeeze in a few groups with what I will call an undisclosed MAX load of HY100V before dark tonight. It looked promising but I will be needing a good range session and some runs over the chrony before I make any final decisions. Only thing for sure right now is that the plastic buttplate on this rifle will be needing to get switched out for something softer. This combo is putting some serious craters in my 4inch cube of soft steel at 100 yards and that buttplate is putting a corresponding dent in my shoulder.

[357maximum]

So tell us what the recovered boolits look like please.

I will dig some out of the berm-O'-sand the next time I shoot. My range is on my property so they are not going anywhere.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

me thinks these will need to be smaller.

I've been wondering about that, if boolits may need to be a little better fitting with these
copper, high velocity wizzbangers. I've been shooting my 280 with boolits sized at .285- the grooves are 283.
I may have discovered why I couldn't get the velocity out of mine with .284 jwords- and a
barrel at .2765 /.283
I've made my sizer dies at .284 for this experiment. Soon as I get to try it and figure out how to collect a fired
one

[madsenshooter]

I have found that with certain boolit designs, harder/tougher alloys are not a help, accuracy-wise. It's as if some bullets have their velocity sweetspot, and that's it. The Squibb bullet would be an extreme example. Yes, I can get it going faster with slower powders, but accuracy is dismal above its favorite speed. Then I have some Eagan designs that shoot good above 2000fps.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

It's as if some bullets have their velocity sweetspot, and that's it.

there is that isnt it? :)

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Thanks Edd
I've been shooting .285 simply becasue I had no sizer dies and that's what I could borrow. The ~1600fps loads
shoot well. At .284, I'm still a .001 over groove, I don't know if there is anything to be had by making it tighter.
I've been scrounging ebone for small mandrels for my Sunnen hone, sizing dies are no longer a issue for me. I
can make what ever I want :mrgreen:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/PC053790.jpg

[badgeredd]

Deleted

[357maximum]

Jim,

Fit is king, always. Our alloy experiments, to the best of my knowledge, have been with boolits that had a good design and fit properly in the first place. One area that I am not in total agreement with others on fit is what diameter one needs to get the most out of a boolit. I feel that one CAN sized a boolit too large. I've seen evidence of that in a few cases. Also, I have recently seen an example of sizing and accuracy where a boolit sized 1/2 of a thousanth larger was considerably more accurate. Good boolit design with the mass balance point slightly behind the linear center of the boolit has proven to allow me to get the best accuracy. It all comes down to what one's individual gun likes.

Some designs have surprised me with how naturally accurate they are. Case in point, is the 7mm Thor that we have in process for a group buy. I am honestly surprised by it's long range accuracy, given it wide flat meplat; but it works in spite of my initial thoughts.

Edd


Yep even though the 7MM THOR sounds like a trashbag hooked on someones bumper as it goes downrange, it still shoots very well. Take the small victories rather you felt they were coming or not Edd. :lol:

I will put the fattest boolit into the gun that the brass and gun will let me get away with....it normally works well, may not always be 100% required,may not always be the best plan, but it works most the time. Different strokes :lol:

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Jim, I think as you get closer to jacketed hardness you have to go smaller to keep pressure down. Cheers.

kinda what I was thinking, but nothing will be sure till I send some down range huh :)

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I don't have a hone (you lucky dog)

Edd

I scored mine at an auction several years ago, all disassembled in a pile with a box full of mandrels for 75 bucks.
Its an older bench mounted version that I made a stand for, and had to make a few missing pieces but it works real good now :)

[badgeredd]

12345

[357maximum]

Using 8mm cases reformed from SL54 30-06 brass with thrown charges of 48.5 Grains of Hodgdon Hybrid100V and Remington 9 1/2 Large rifle primers with the lee c-327-175-fn made from 20lbs pure/ 20lbs coww+ 1lb of the copperized RR babbit and waterdropped. ****this is a MAX load in my rifle, do not duplicate without proper dropdown and workup procedures*****

I am getting just under 2500 fps and am carrying 1.5 - 1.75 inch peepsighted groups at 100 yards in the DOT43 sporter. I shot 7 of em into my 250 yard steel gong and I carried a 3inch group at 250 yards right before dusk tonight. I am not at the 2700 I wanted and I am not going to get there with this powder. I do have a very useable load that would turn any deer species on this continent into venison however. I actually poked several holes through the gong at 250yards. The gong is the bottom 10 inches of a fullsized argon tank inverted and hung from a chain.....very accustic unless you start poking holes through it.

[madsenshooter]

One thing I've done with a similar alloy is shoot boolits with both zero and very little lube. I didn't see anything that would cause a problem with the ones I shot sans lube. The ones that were only very lightly lubed worked fine too. In that case I had applied the lube I concocted, thinned LLA with some Marvel Mystery Oil mixed in, only on the tiny driving bands with a q-tip. Even though the Eagan bullet I was using had a very small lube groove, it didn't take many shots to get liquid wax dripping out the end of the barrel. Riding on a fluid film might not be such a good idea when you're trying to grip radiused rifling that is only .002" tall. My new bullet has a lot more bearing surface, so I'll start with C-Red in only the bottom groove. That'll leave three empty grooves on the bullet to pick up any leftover from previous shots.

[357maximum]

I am lubing the 1 real lube groove and the area above the check wich is actually as much as the loob groove holds...filled full of MML and am getting a very very faint lube star at the muzzle. The bore looks unfired after 60 shots except for some minimal "settled dust" in the first 1/3 of the bore.


MML does not want to "overlube" like some of the other soft lubes out there, it's designer planned it that way. ;-)

[303Guy]

I've played with copper as a refiner. I found weird things like soft bands, rapid hardening and a pretty tough boolit although fairly malleable - swage-able. One boolit twisted on such a soft plane in the bore. I know this because there was signs of rifling skid above the twist plane and none below. On the next lot I made I added solder with tin in it but didn't get the same results as before meaning I didn't achieve the toughness and hardness I had before. Too much tin? I thought tin was necessary to dissolve the copper. In fact, I found that with the added tin I could not get the copper to dissolve directly into the alloy as before.

Oh, the fired copper alloy boolits were pretty hard after impact in sand.

[madsenshooter]

I see what Popper is saying though. I think it interesting that there's a way to add Cu without going the babbitt route. For now that's what I'm set up do do, but my babbitt supply and the free pre-tinned wick up won't last forever. I wonder if the Cu sulphate would remove Zn contamination at the same time? Probably depends on the reactivity of Zn vs Sn, which I'm not going to look up at this time of the morning. Also Popper, hows the bands on the bullets cast with your alloy look? With my alloy, square edges are perfectly square, machining marks from the mould can be seen on the bullet. That's fillout at its finest. Not always needed, but I'm trying to make a benchrest rifle of an AR15. Perfection, or as close as humanly possible is the direction I'm going.

[felix]

Sizing is a function of toughness. Final boolit size desired is the dynamic fit of the boolit to freebore-leade when the gun is fired until when the boolit passes the max pressure point. After that the barrel should be tapered to maintain a smooth pressure drop. This section usually occurs too fast to visually see on a scope when using a single "cheap" tranducer. Besides, who says the gun has a perfect crown? Usually, only BR guns do (or did in my case). ... felix

Sharper the max pressure point, the faster the whip amplitude. Faster the whip amplitute, the more important the boolit leaves the muzzle when the boolit is moving the slowest, hopefully not at all. ... felix

[badgeredd]

zyxwv

[madsenshooter]

For the future, I'm interested in the Cu sulphate method. Although the weight of the boolit doesn't matter a whole lot to me, I'd like to get a little closer to what a boolit is supposed to weigh. As an example I have a NOE 6.5 bullet that's supposed to weigh 163gr. With the high Sn alloy it weighs only 153.3gr.

With the 6mm Eagan bullet I was using, bigger was better, but that was more a result of poor fit in the 5R barrel from the beginning. As someone named Joe once told me, compared to a jacketed bullet, these alloys are still butter soft.

[badgeredd]

Qazwsx

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I finally had a chance to cast some boolits with the copper blended alloy I made a week or so ago.
It took some fiddling to get it going. It seems to want a higher pot temp, around 725 or so.
Also as someone else mentioned, if you wait too long to cut the sprue you have a chore on your hands :)

The trouble I had, is the pot o' melt seemed to want to oxidize the tin to the surface very easily.
Way more than my usually bout of WW + sn. I had to flux a LOT to keep it in there-
I suspect it's a side effect of running the pot hotter? I normally run ww+sn at 625-650 with good results.
I also am a ladle person and running the melt through the air seems to make it oxidize quicker than I think it should.

[madsenshooter]

Jim, a pinch of anydrous citric acid, and I mean a tiny pinch, from time to time will slow the oxidation of the tin. If you check some old babbitting books, you're about at the lower end of the pouring temps they recommend, and they also recommend the journal, which in our case would be the mold, be heated to around 400 degrees. Back to the pinch of citric acid, it will pacify things for awhile, then it's time for a pinch more. Smaller than standard sprue holes may be a help with the cutting. I wouldn't cast with my drip-o-matic with this alloy, too much instant oxidation as the alloy flows through the air.

I have some 6mm bullets cast and aged. Loaded them to a level that gave me 2450fps and 1.5" groups with a slightly heavier bullet. I'm expecting better of this new NOE bullet. Shooting report will be ready in a few days.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

OK, so is the anydrous citric acid available in a store known as what? Googly search, came up with
AlkaSeltzer, & fruit preservative, in the canning section maybe?

yeah, the instant oxidation was my problem even with a ladle. A few pours and its time for oatmeal :(

[madsenshooter]

Hmm, mine isn't that bad, but it doesn't bother me at all to exceed 800. Let's see where did I get that stuff. You don't want the stuff in cans, it has silicon dioxide in it. Here it is, used to increase the bioavailability of antibiotics for livestock: http://www.qcsupply.com/540923-citric-acid-410-gm.html Their resident vet insured me there was no sand in it.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Hey, the Ranch Store! Why didn't I think of that? Time for a field trip to Murdochs Ranch & Home

[runfiverun]

lemishine is 96% citric acid.
i don't know about it being anhydrous, but it is a powder.
i'd try covering my pot with some kitty litter or something but it wouldn't work well with a ladle.
you'll have to be careful and slow with your ladle movements to avoid introducing any oxygen into the alloy.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

No citric acid of any sort, that I found so far in town, except for the stuff with dextrose and other goodies for canning.
I've seen Lemishine liquid here , not sure about the powder version
The powder could be kilned in the heat treating over to rid it of any moisture

Madsenshooter- I was having difficulty with wrinkles -more than ever, so your comment
about being on the lower end of the casting temp is right on the money.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Well, I got the first round of the copper boolits heat treated yesterday, did a bunch of
the wrinkly junkers just to see how they harden up.

Seriously thinking, for no more of these than I need, I might just get the right
alloy from Rotometals and be done with it. I like the DIY stuff, but.
Maybe its just the 15 degree weather getting to me as I cant play outside like I want too

my mix was whatever % of Cu went into the tin, then 50/50(ww+pure)+.5 Sn/Cu alloy
We'll see what they come up to

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I'm just starting in this insanity nanuk- hopefully the fellers already do in it will chime back in.

I tested one of my guinea pig boolits after 24 hours.
Holy carpel tunnel - 23.8 bhn only 24 hours after heat treating.
Wonder how hard these puppies are gonna get? :)

[nanuk]

sorry, my post got deleted as I had asked that question elsewhere, but found the reply didn't answer my question.

I think this area is exceptional for highspeed boolits, and if they can be pushed to moderate Jword speeds without a GC, then so much the better.

as edd said, 3000fps without a jacket is the goal, but if 2600 or so without the check is doable, that would be a huge step up.

[Dutch4122]

nanuck-

I can partially answer your question. I have used Edd's alloys in plain based Mihec 360640's (170 grn) for the .357 Magnum Carbine. The boolits were air cooled, not water dropped; and the BHN was measured at 18. The load was 14.5 grains of 2400 for 1,740 fps out of my USRAC Trails End with the 20 inch barrel. No leading, and improved accuracy as mentioned in a previous post here. With 3 part alloys a gas check boolit would have been a given in my carbine with this load.

I would have to say that what I have experienced so far leads me to believe that it may be possible to push a plain based boolit to higher pressures with one of Edd's copper enriched & balanced alloys. I just haven't tried it yet; and how much higher is anybody's guess at this point.

Seems to me that a good first step test in that direction would be to mix up a batch of Edd's alloy, cast them in a plain based mold designed for a .30-30; size/lube, and load them over jacketed bullet data using powders such as 4198 or RL-7. A quick trip to the range should tell you if plain based boolits can withstand higher pressures.

[badgeredd]

Asdfg

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

2 days after heat treat, my copper boolits are up to 28 bhn http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/Smilies/jaw-dropping.gif

[badgeredd]

Lkjhg

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Holding steady on day 3
I'll have to wait till spring to do the wet newsprint test. I'd be shooting into a block of ice right now :mrgreen:

[357maximum]

Jim,
Don't be surprised if they continue to harden for another week or so.

Edd

Don't be surprised if they continue to get a bit fatter also. It takes a mic to see it but they grow in diameter for quite some time. It can really screw with the way you seat the boolits when going for full engagement of the throat/rifling. I have switched over to a full 6month "ripening" stage on my water quenched cu alloys before loading ammo that will be stored very long. When loading for full engagement on break action single shots the growth can actually be felt.

[badgeredd]

Cderf

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Jim - the data I have found indicates the Cu enriched will be 90% max hardness in 24 hrs.

This is what I'm seeing as well. Day after casting was hard, its been hanging in the same area since then.
To clear the muck again, we are not after "hard" with the Cu, we are after "tough & malleable"
You're post above could be construed as using Cu to harden the mix

[badgeredd]

Zxcvb

[kavemankel]

Cu alloying lead has been done for a long time but with modern testing techniques becoming cheaper we can send our own special blends in to have them tested so we may be able to tweak them ever more.
I Like reading this to see what other people are doing to make HC more viable for high speed rifle velocity

[303Guy]

I'm going to be dissolving the copper rather than the CS method. So, what alloy mix should I be looking for? What's the maximum tin I should be aiming for? wheel weights don't just lie around in tyre shops in my parts - those all end up as sinkers. I have plenty of tin at the moment so I don't mind using a bit of tin to get the end effect. I do know high copper alloy 'hardens' quite quickly and that in itself is a good reason to use it. I do believe antimony is an additional requirement but how little do I need? And how will negate the malleability thing we are after? Does arsenic make any difference? Is it beneficial? I'm kinda thinking a whole bunch of grain refiners together might make a good alloy for us with each being in moderate amounts, like at the solubility limits of each?

[303Guy]

Thanks popper. It's the antimony I'm short of.

Any suggestions on how to 'measure' alloy performance? One test I've thought of but never a round to to the dual impact test, that being comparing the impact of a fast but light object and a slow but heavy object. The idea being that the impact force should be the same. A third one would be a static load with the same force. That would be with a steel ball of the same diameter in the nose of the impactor. Another test would be a heavy flat object dropped from a standard hight i.e. a hammer test. Field tests are going to be tricky but that'll be the most critical.

[badgeredd]

fghjk

[45 2.1]

There are some things I would like to know........ from the folks who started this current copper addition to an alloy.

1. What you think is the best ideal alloy percentages for all known items in the alloy.
2. Casting parameters... WD or AC, casting temps, etc. for uniform results
3. Time vs hardness parameters
4. Time vs diameter growth parameters
5. Time to alloy stability
6. Finally, just what do you gain (or loose) by a balanced alloy.... cause and effect in specifics with examples.

Granted, by what i've seen in the past and with the two alloy mixes Edd gave me, this could be useful for several common problems casters have, but it also interjects some problems for other use parameters also. What is very useful is military duplication loads, high velocity loadings as well as putting sub diameter casting molds back in use.

Soo, how about informing everyone just what to expect?

[badgeredd]

yhnbg

[badgeredd]

Uhbvg

[357maximum]

Popper/303Guy/Edd

Is there a way to use/incorporate "spine testers" that are used to test what weight bow wooden arrows will shoot. Just trying to spark a thought.

[45 2.1]

6. Finally, just what do you gain (or loose) by a balanced alloy.... cause and effect in specifics with examples.
Again as I have said in the past, it is my opinion that a balanced alloy will give the greatest benefits.

... it also interjects some problems for other use parameters also. Exactly what problems are you asking about?

One thing we have noticed is one "needs" to cast at a higher temperature. I am assuming this is due to the copper content.

I have changed my idea on what might constitute a balanced alloy. Therefore I am experimenting with an mix addressing the idea of balance from 2 different directions. We are experimenting and learning from the results. The more people that get on board with the idea, the faster "rules" can be arrived at, IMO.

As for what to expect, I suggest that one try it to help us learn "what to expect."

Edd

OK Edd...... the above questions are in relation to some things I have read recently and some old material I learned in the TAM lab at school. A poster on this site related an alloy (basically 1.5% of each in one and 2% of each in another...IIRC) that had equal proportions of tin and antimony (basically what you have said is a balanced alloy, but not quite actually) being a stable alloy (due to the tin binding the antimony so no hardness growth occurs or diameter change for that matter) after a couple of days. I've heard Bruce say the copper alloy stopped growing in hardness after a couple of days and Mike and you say it grows and hardens to about 6 months. Others folks report diameter changes by measurement. Quite a difference in results. The alloy mixes you gave me don't grow or harden after a few days as I have some about 7 months old. What I see is a great difference in results with no consensus as to what is it and whats it do. Got some answers there?

[badgeredd]

Rfvbg

[btroj]

As for testing I would think 2 tests are in order. First, to test for toughness as opposed to brittleness a large weight dropped from a known height would work. Compare to other known alloys. I would be happy with something that doesn't fracture when hit hard wins big hammer. I know that monotype breaks into shrapnel and disappears if hit like that.
The second test is accuracy at higher velocity with the same alloy.

If it shoots well at 2400 fps or better and isn't so brittle that it fractures when hit with a hammer I ask this- what more do we need? Higher velocities generally mean hard alloys, those tend to be brittle.

This is a very subjective test but I don't care if it can be quantified. Results are what I want to see. Good accuracy, higher velocities, and good terminal ballistics- no fragmenting bullets.

[357maximum]

Bob

It grows, Bruce was mistaken or you heard him wrong while you were waiting your turn to talk....pure and simple it grows. It is a special use alloy that You yourself have said is not worth much. I would not be upset if you were trying to learn something, but...well I will keep that door shut, that closet is a mess.


Why the change of heart, thought you did not care and that you had already been there done that did not want it????????? Please and I am publicly begging of you ....STOP trolling and let those who want to learn and SHARE their findings do so in peace. I am trying to ask nicely, the next time I ask, one of the mods will likely have to give me a time out and you ain't worth the hassle. Those of us that KNOW you KNOW what you are up to, so please just stop. PLEASE


Copper alloys have been around a long time.... and have been written about that long also. The problem before was replacing what worked after it ran out with the same thing. Now that is not so much of a problem....... BUT, what do you actually have with that copper alloy? I suspect it will be hard besides being tough..... and you should be able to shoot it at basically full velocity. If you use a boolit design with a big flat meplat, all is well a good until it decelerates to a certain velocity. Conventional designs with a small meplat will get you a FMJ and the performance associated with it. Having seen 357 Maximum recovered boolit pictures it looks like its a solid FMJ performance type that barely looses weight. I don't think it will expand and his pictures show that........... Basically its a special use alloy. I've shot enough varmints with solids, both with small and large meplats to know whats gonna happen...... myself I'll choose an expanding boolit.... just like what the jacketed bullet industry does for conventional usage.

[badgeredd]

Uhbyg

[btroj]

I am thinking about what can be done with a proper fitting bullet in my 375 H&H.
A 270 gr cast bullet at 2600 or so would be awesome.

[357maximum]

I am thinking about what can be done with a proper fitting bullet in my 375 H&H.
A 270 gr cast bullet at 2600 or so would be awesome.


You must have missed the memo..."ALL THE MASTADON ARE DEAD" :mrgreen: Going by what my whelen will do your awesome goal is very do-able. A 270 grainer @ 2600...what more do we need?.... indeed. :lol:

[btroj]

Well, in Nebraska we do feed our deer corn........

[45 2.1]

Since you said you had messed with babbit in the 80s, I thought you may have some input, ergo the reason I gave you some of my babbit to work with.
Edd

I did...... the problem was one of finding the same thing again (that didn't happen though).... each lot was a little different. That was fine for general shooting, but not very good for experimenting. That is why I dropped it and not knowing just what it was or what it had in it.

[45 2.1]

It is a special use alloy that You yourself have said is not worth much.

I said it doesn't expand, it makes a good FMJ in normal molds and it needs a flat nose mold like Edd was running a GB for to hunt with. Now you agree its a special use alloy......finally. It would be really nice if you could quote what I actually said instead of what you think I said........................

[357maximum]

Always has been a special use alloy, it was never meant to be the alloy to make all other alloys obsolete. One alloy is never ever ever gonna cover the full spectrum of what we use cast for.... not very practical to even think that. Cast boolits simply cover too much ground to get a LORD OF THE LEAD ALLOY. An alloy that is getting hit with 10-16,000 psi has to differ from a alloy getting hit by 50,000 psi, you know that as well as anyone. And YES it does expand....not like pure lead obviously ,but it expands at it's intended impact velocities without disentegrating like say a lino boolit would.

My applications for pure lead have not changed, my applications for soft lead have not changed, my applications for good ol 50/50 have not changed. What has changed is my ability to go faster extremely accurately on a consistent basis using the copper enhanced babbit + 50/50 or 60/40 in some of my full throttle applications. This alloy is not really all that much different from lube as alot of lubes will do most of what a caster needs, but at some point a guy requires "DIFFERENT and SUBSTANTIALLY MORE BETTER" when he is pushing the envelope with cast.

I would not haul cargo with a Mazeratti and would not take my pickup truck out on the Autobon either. I apologize if I never know what you are saying, I always mess up when I am reading Egyptian and Greek hyroglyphs too. Your super secret squirrel methods make it really hard for someone other than the government drones to read your thoughts. :mrgreen:


have a great day Bobber,
Mike

[badgeredd]

Mnbvc

[45 2.1]

I also asked you if you had tried the babbit. Although you did not say no, you left the impression that your experiences in the 80s showed you that it wasn't of use to you. Then I see a post that says you have boolits aged for 7 months...which is it? Edd

Lets see.... trying the babbit. That would usually mean shooting it from boolits you cast into groups. I don't really think beating a boolit cast from it into a disk or shooting some three day old stuff down the tube to see if it stays clean qualifies as trying it. I never shot those boolits into groups until last Saturday out of a couple 223s a friend brought over to try. No difference in accuracy between normal 50/50 WD and the copper alloy from your calculator runs as far as cleanliness or accuracy. Sparkling clean bores in both rifles with all loads tried..... and that was with some very warm flatter primer loads. What i'm searching for is a full 5.56mm military duplication load for the 62 gr. loading with at least equal accuracy. 2,400 fps has worked, but anything over 2700 fps hasn't been up to snuff...... which is still a long way from 3,000+ fps. I don't think the alloy is the problem in that equation, something else is. Whether it works or not is one of those things that make experimenting fun.

[Jailer]

Well I was going to try Mikes method of adding copper to this hunk of babbit I have here but I chickened out. :)

I needed to pick up a ladle so I placed my order with Rotometals and threw 5 lbs of supertough on the order so I can try out this copper rich alloy in my 308. Might bring the 30-06 into this one as well since it's a more accurate gun than the 308 and might show better results.

Order should be delivered this week so hopefully this weekend I'll get to mixing up my witches brew. 8-)

[badgeredd]

Jhgfd

[badgeredd]

Thmko

[45 2.1]

What alloy did you use Bob? Did you water drop or heat treat? What was the Bhn of the alloy? I could have had the percentages wrong as I said earlier because I am not sure which balancing method is correct. Also I believe there is a fundamental problem with knowing the make-up of COWW lead. My guess is that we are not going to be able to get things perfectly precise unless we use certified metals...which I for one can't afford. I agrre with Mike that we can produce alloys that will be "reasonably" repeatable.

Edd

P.S. It just occured to me that I may have given you a fairly low antimonial mix in the alloys I gave you. If that is so, I apologize for that error.

Edd-
We sat at your computer and used your alloy calculator. I copied two of the "formulas" directly from what it said for the alloy constituents I had. I water dropped them and tested basic hardness with a rigged up drop hammer for some time to see if and when they got harder...... my hardness tester doesn't like the boolit I used as the meplat is very close to the indenter size and doesn't do well testing them. Whats left is setting in two different iron pots.

Here is what I have written down on the alloys:

Alloy#1
8# COWW + 5/8# Monotype + 1/4# no. 2 babbit
Given calculator % = 92.96% Pb, 3.40% Tin, 3.28% Antimony, 0.10% Copper, 0.23% Arsenic

Alloy#2
11.5# COWW + 4# Pb + 1/2# of no. 2 babbit
Given calculator % = 3.21% Antimony, 3.33% Tin, 0.18% Arsenic, 92.95% Pb, 0.11% Copper

Note that I mentioned these %'s did not add up to 100% when we were looking at the numbers on the screen.

[badgeredd]

Deleted2

[45 2.1]

Yes I recall that conversation, but I didn't record the alloys. I also recall telling you that I was aware the percentages didn't total exactly 100%. Knowing what we know about other metals being in scrap COWW, I seriously doubt that the 0.22% in alloy #2 or the 0.03% in alloy 1 make any significant difference. Would you still concur?

So I take it the loads were not chronographed and no loads between 2400 fps and 2700 fps were fired. Yes?

Edd

Statistically probably.... actually... who knows. Loads weren't chrono'd, but two were above 2300 fps and the last one was probably above 2700 fps. Not a lot of data exists at those levels with non canister powder for lead, just jacketed data.

[badgeredd]

Nvxsf

[Jailer]

Glad to hear it Ty. Maybe we all can have it figured out by the time for the get-together. You'll be invited to SW Michigan along with that guy from Adrian, by the way. Start planning.

Edd

I look forward to it, thanks.

I'm not nearly as experienced or bright as you guys when it comes to this stuff, but I am a good study. I'll try to keep good notes on what I'm doing so hopefully I'll have something to contribute.

I just wish I knew the makeup of this soft lead I have that I recovered from commercial jacketed pistol bullets. Melt temp and coloring when heated points to something very close to pure lead but Mike's trained ear says it has a bit of a Sb ring to it when you drop the ingots. I've been treating it as pure lead for my 50/50 water dropped stuff.

[303Guy]

As for me, I'm not after high velocity, just reasonable velocity but with a boolit that expands well yet holds together too. Controlled expansion is good too. All this translates into enough hardness to maintain boolit base integrity for accuracy and enough malleability to expand easily. That's where I looked at copper. From what I understand, it doesn't take that much copper to toughen the alloy and it seems that other grain refiners add to the effect.

So keep up the work. I wish I could contribute but right now I'm relying on you guys to blaze the trail. :Fire:

[357maximum]

303Guy

Depending on what YOU mean by REASONABLE.....you may well be served better by plain old waterdropped 50/50 ww/pure+ a splash of tin.

I have a particular goal on a particular platform I want with these C.E (copper enhanced )alloys ...I am still waiting on realizing my goal. I want more than I will likely get, but who knows till one tries.

[357maximum]

I use jacketed rifle data for cast all the time. I normally get a touch less pressure and about 75-100 bonus feets per second. As long as your boolit is not too big and putting side pressure on the neck and you are not dangling your feet further than normal into the boiler room of the case....no issues for me yet.

[badgeredd]

Ijnuh

[357maximum]

At 2400-2500FPS and faster nose profile really seems to matter less than at "normal" cast speeds. I have literally gutted/processed many many TONS of 120-180 lb (dressed weight) whitetail deer shot with alot of different things and both those deer I shot last fall with the 7THOR at 2512fps launch speed showed signs of the hydraulic shockwave you see with a well balanced/constructed jacketed round, but there was zero sign of boolit breakup like one often sees with say a 130grain .270 j-word "bomb". I could not find either boolit to prove it, but the signs point to a boolit that kept their integrity and neither one showed signs of "sploding" or "breakup". I am 100% sure a little less meplate on 6mm,7mm and bigger boolits would do no harm at the speeds this alloy is capable of when it all falls into place. I also have suspicion that as one approaches 3 to 3.4K and above with this alloy, meplate may not matter at all, it may not even be desirable for edible critters......still working on proving that one out though.

One step at a time and my largest test medium available is a 200lb live weight whitetail. What I really need is another chance to put a sick/injured holstein down. Them "calls" really help prove things/theories out, but they come along so rarely anymore in this day of modern farming/veterinary practices. But if you put em through good deer and they fall down without excessive trauma...I guess it works eh?

[Jailer]

Well my package from Rotometals showed up today so I'm ready to go. What percentages of each should I be shooting for when I mix this stuff up?

[olaf455]

I cannot wait to get started playing with this alloy. I am planning to add 2 percent zinc to pure lead and then convert the zink to copper.
As it is nearly impossible for me to get wheel weights here, I will mix Lino type and pure lead to bring the antimony level down to approximately 2 percent, and add approximately 1 percent tin. Then I will mix these 2 alloys together 50/50.
The resulting alloy should be approximately 1 percent copper 1 percent antimony .5 percent tin and the rest pure lead.

Gunna see how these perform and how fast they will go accurately, and go from there.

[badgeredd]

Phoot

[olaf455]

IMHO, it is best to mix up a balanced alloy. By that I mean a relative balance of the three components in the lead, antimony, tin, and copper. I am right now trying to figure out whether I have been using the best method.

Edd

So you recommend upping the tin % to 1.0?
I can do that.

[GabbyM]

So you recommend upping the tin % to 1.0?
I can do that.

I think he means to up the Sb to 1.5% making it equal to the tin and Cu.

[badgeredd]

Yuiop

[357maximum]

Well my package from Rotometals showed up today so I'm ready to go. What percentages of each should I be shooting for when I mix this stuff up?


What alloys do you have on hand?...I did not pay too good of attention the other day...my bad.

[303Guy]

That's why I'm glad you guys are working on it.

I found this pic on expansion tests I did on my first copper alloy
61294

These were fired into soft fine sand at various velocities.

Fired into rubber grinds is probably closer to what happens in flesh (muscle really).
61295

[357maximum]

OK 303 you did it now. What was the exact alloys and launch speeds????????........I am pretty sure the alloy I am using would not mushroom quite like that....but you have whet my appetite for more info on exactly what ya had going on there.

[303Guy]

I have no idea of launch speed. Not that high, probably around 1500fps maybe less. They're heavy, that last one was 214gr (and almost still is). The alloy is an unknown but it did have copper in it - I dissolved it in. Not a lot, maybe 0.15%. I did work it out but have lost that data. It had COWW, and some lino plus a lot of other lead and a fair amount of tin. It was not hard, but aged within hours.

[badgeredd]

Imhoidm

[Nrut]

Well my package from Rotometals showed up today so I'm ready to go. What percentages of each should I be shooting for when I mix this stuff up?

I rendered some Super Tough ingots down into usable form (various molds ranging from 100grs. to 500grs.) last weekend.

You are going to find Super Tough to be the most interesting alloy that you have ever poured!

If it can be swagged into a high BC bullet then copper plated like Speer does with their "Deep Curl" bullet, then that bullet will own the long range target shooting game.

[Jailer]

Jailer,

New day and I am fully awake so I need to add some details.

The amounts I sent you by PM will each perform differently because of the antimonial content. What is your intended use with the first batch of alloy that mix up? If you intend on using the boolits for hunting, I suggest you use an slloy with 2.5 to 3.0% antimony, water dropped. Lieky the closer to 2.5 would have more desireable terminal characteristics. You choose.

Edd

First batch will be for experimentation only. I don't have a good hunting bullet for the 30 cals yet. I plan on casting a few with the MP 180 sil mold that I just got to see where these can be pushed velocity wise and still maintain accuracy.

The eventual goal is to convert that mauser I picked up recently to 35 Whelen and cast up some BRP 220 grain hunting bullets for it. But until that happens all testing will be run through the 308 and 30-06.

[303Guy]

I'm hoping that by first mixing up the base alloy one can then dissolve the correct amount of copper. I think it does work but one may need to raise the temperature above casting temp to get enough in. I did manage to get enough copper in that I found a need to cut it back with lead to get it back to a reasonable casting temperature. I'm going to try dissolving copper into my current alloy to see what happens. At least if it does dissolve, I will be able to weigh how much went in.

[Jailer]

What alloys do you have on hand?...I did not pay too good of attention the other day...my bad.

Lots of COWW, quite a bit of soft range lead that you said must have a small amount of Sb in it since it had a slight "ring" when dropped and some stick on WW that I haven't melted down yet.

Edd, I'm a little confused now about the alloy balancing. Should the Cu and Sn equal the Sb or should it be Cu and Sb equal the Sn?

[badgeredd]

Dontno

[357maximum]

. We really could use the assistance of a trained metalugist that has experience with lead alloys.

Edd

It's never too late for another profession Edd......I will buy YOUR books if YOU pay YOUR tuition. :mrgreen:

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Edd sometimes I wonder if the "smart" ones really know?
Looking at your statement above, since we are after a relationship here, seems like the
balance you suggested might be correct. Since the Sn interacts with both the Sb and the Cu,
seems "logical" that would be the way to go. No knowledge here, it just "looks right on paper" to me:wink:

BTW, I think I've decided on just buying some of the copper laden babbit from rotometals when I get a few bucks ahead
rather than playing mad scientist at home. I have a feeling that I'll get it right by accident one time, and never be able to replicate it,
kinda like my cooking skills

[Jailer]

One more thought to run by you. Everything (which admittedly is very little) that I've read describes the copper in copper/lead alloys as a lattice or larger structure in the alloy. Wouldn't you think that the small amount of copper that we are adding would be like adding a little rebar to cement? And if that is correct wouldn't you want your Sb and Sn balanced with each other and the copper considered as just an added re enforcement of the targeted alloy composition?

Just thinking out loud here, let me know if I'm way off the mark on this.

[badgeredd]

Allgone

[badgeredd]

Fghjm

[badgeredd]

vbncx

[GabbyM]

One thing I do know is you never ever want more Sn in your alloy than you've Sb.

Less Sn than Sb is no big deal. So when we start to add Cu I can’t think of a down side to keeping the total of Sn plus Cu below or equal to total Sb level. Since I've never heard of a down side to excess Sb levels in an alloy. Other than brittleness.

I’ve had some fine results with an alloy of 4% Sb 3 ½ % Sn. with the Sn being from lead free solder. . Which contains .5% Cu. IIRC. (Standard lead free solder.) This alloy would punch through quite a bit of boiler plate. In a 9mm hand gun it punches through 5/16th inch 1018 hot roll. AKA far more than any tire rim. Better than any $1 Speer Gold dot. FBI ***.

After you get Sn bonded with Sb it is no longer a fragile alloy. IMO any excess Sn will only make slippage easier. In short your boolit will come apart freely. Grease between the molecule structure.

IBC

[357maximum]

THANKS....Buddy!!!!!! Can't stand it I am retired and can play at will, can you?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edd


Here I am trying to help a feller out and I get accused of jealousy, what has this world come to. I am offended :mrgreen: Looks to me like you waste alot of that time thinking anyway, that is not good for you ya know, you might start losing your hair...oh wait :lol:

[runfiverun]

okay this is something new.
i have alway seen the antimony and copper nearly equaling the tin.
because the tin would help keep the copper in solution better.
i still don't know if the copper bonds with the antimony even with the tin chain between/binding them.
otherwise you'd have a PbSbSnCu chain rather than a PbSnSbCu chain.
all of your tin would be pulled to the antimony in the first one allowing the copper to become a free molecule [this could explain the alloys fluidity]
the second would bond the tin to the antimony, and the tin and the copper causing a semi strengthening SnCu chain, free from the SbSn chain.
basically we know what normally happens to free tin in an alloy but this way it would have the copper with it.

the only other thing i can think of is the SnCu is binding in between and to the Sb molecules allowing them to move and glide.
and be more distributed throughout the alloy.
acting much like adding Pb to a CuSn alloy does.

this might explain the expansion thing too as everything goes about it's business getting in place.
shrug...

[357maximum]

Is it more important to know:

1.THAT IT WORKS
2. Why it works

I'll shrug too :mrgreen:

[303Guy]

I remembered something - my copper enriched alloy exibeted soft and hard bands. I thought it likely to be caused be the way the mold was filling up.

This should show what I mean
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/CastingDefects.jpg These are worst examples.

I used flawed castings for test tube firing since no accuracy was required.

I had one boolit twisting along a plane which I think became fluid as it expanded into the case mouth - chamber gap. The casting flaw/soft area happened to align with the gap.

Here it is
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-524F-1.jpg

[303Guy]

Is it more important to know:

1.THAT IT WORKS
2. Why it works

I'll shrug too :mrgreen:
Being the curious sort, it's hard call! [smilie=1:

[badgeredd]

Chkor

[45 2.1]

I feel we need to understand the mechanics of the alloy to take full advantage of using it. We know the mechanical properties of the Cu enriched alloy is an improvement when trying to go fast but if we understand somewhat why, we might figure out other ways to further improve the alloys. Edd

I'll try to help here. Does anyone know why factory jacketed bullets have the core alloy they do and what it is? Depending on who and what you read, most seem to have about 2% antimony with little tin. Those factory cores are swagged, then put in a jacket and re-swagged. I have a good quantity of old cores.... BHN about 7 to 8. If you harden them up, as the factory did for some of their premium hunting bullets, they don't shoot as accurately. That is where I got the idea to cut COWW alloy hardeners down.... ie to make the antimony a lower % content. That all by itself increased accuracy potential greatly over straight WW. If I added too much tin, the accuracy fell off some. Heat treatment with more tin did not help matters either. As you know a lead/tin alloy will not age harden. An antimony based alloy will age harden due to the lattice structure antimony produces. From these experiments I cut tin out of my alloys and good things happened with harder boolits. I will have to assume that copper also grows a lattice structure as most folks here say it grows in diameter along with some hardness spurts. Maybe too much tin isn't the best thing.........

[Hardcast416taylor]

DUH!!! I`ve been trying to follow this discussion and try experiments of my own making for hardness and balance of alloys. I can only say that I have the mental abilities of a plumber, that ability is remembering that the hot water lines go on the left side of a faucet. About the most I remember of my chemistry classes in HS and college is HOW to spell CHEMISTRY! I do look forward to what is finally determined here as a good H.V. alloy that even I can attempt to make up correctly. Robert

[kbstenberg]

Questions and observations from a student.
Because YOU are working with a new type of alloy (copper added) shouldn't the properties and performance of the bullets be different? You start with known information from a lead projectile. Then change what to expect in performance and method of manufacture to the properties of the new alloy. Which at this point the book is continually being changed till you find the correct combinations to accomplish the goal.
I haven't mixed any alloy yet. When you are planning what weights of the components ( COWW, SOWW, Superhard, Lino, Copper) do you use one of the lead calculators and keep changing the weights of the components till you get the percentages for the alloy that you want? When I look at Bumpo's calculator it lists all of the different components and what they generally are made of. Are you guys using those figures as the chemical base for your alloy? Kevin
Robert weren't you and I in the same Chem. class!!

[Jailer]

r5r,

I'm glad someone else thinks that the intermetallic compounds might explain this extended hardening period. You said it better than I but that is exactly what I've been wondering/thinking. Like I said earlier, it appears to me the only way we'll get an answer is to try using both versions of the alloy in side by side tests with the only thing that is different is how we balance the alloy.


Edd

The intermetallic compounds would also explain why they continue to grow slowly over time. I was reading a paper last night that was researching this phenomenon as it applies to soldered joints. The microstructure at the intermetallic bond between the two parts that were joined continued to slowly grow and significantly increased the mechanical bond between the two parts joined.

[btroj]

I found a paper that discussed how pour temp can change which intermettalics form. Makes me wonder if those change slowly over time based upon ambient temp and this is why the long period to stabilize?
In the end we may not have the ability to totally understand WHY something happens. I am happy enough to know WHAT happens. Knowing what to expect, when to expect it, and how to deal with its good enough to me.

[303Guy]

NOW my head hurts! :killingpc
Could you explain it a bit please? What do those lines mean? Would it be a safe starting point to have equal amounts of each? How would adding lead affect the mix?

I guess we are going to need to determine the range of constituents that will work for us. To get exact amounts is quite difficult with scrap metal, the only constituent we can be sure of is the lead itself since we can get SOWW and lead pipe. If we know how much copper we want to add we can weigh the right size piece and dissolve it in. We can get high tin from pewter and ignore the other bits in it. But antimony is a problem to me. So far I have quite a nice high tin alloy with some unknown copper in it but even the tin amount is not accurately known since I was adding raw drain pipe (not set up to smelt yet). I need a source of antimony.

[Jailer]

I've been playing around with an alloy calculator and I'm running into the same problem. I can't get the Sb level high enough to balance out with the material I have on hand. I wish I would have known this when I ordered the supertough, I would have added in a pound or two of superhard.

[runfiverun]

but what happens when lead is present.
that adds one more b into the equasion.
plus it's the majority so there is enough room for everything to "find" it's place.
tin is trying to go to the outside allowing the Sb to break through to the surface in a normal alloy.
is the Cu going with the Sn or is it matrixed with the Sb.
if it's the Sb then the Pb is also in the mix and the copper is staying inside the boolit if it's going with the SbSn it's trying to get to the outside.
any free Sn is gonna cause hard spots on the surface unless it has something else with it.

so has anybody seen dark spots on their boolits with the extra tin alloys when using copper?
was it more than a 3 to 1 mix of tin to copper?
was it after a 50-50 mix of tin with antimony.
anyway it is looking like this is gonna come down to tin/no tin.
this will mean that close observation and reports are gonna have to be made so direct comparisons can be done.
a small window of focus [volume/percentage,whatever] is the only way to determine what affect the tin will have.

[btroj]

Ok Run, while I appreciate your input here don't you have lube to make and test? All this alloy stuff is just taking you away from assigned duties.
Now be a nice gent and be back to making new lines for us, please?

I need to order some Babbitt from Rotometals and wait for the results of the testing I sent off. I want to see what my monotype really has in it rather than assume.

In the end it looks like we may need to try some different mixes and see what they do over time.

[badgeredd]

Bmizgd

[badgeredd]

Gdboyz

[Jailer]

The alloy calculator I'm using assumes 3% Sb for COWW. You did send me a recipe but it comes up short on Sb with the 3% assumption. This is what I end up with.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/testalloy_zps963cc2e9.jpg

Who knows, maybe I should just mix it up and try and see what happens.....

[kbstenberg]

Jailer What was the given BHN for the above alloy?

[Jailer]

12.2 is what it calculated it to be.

[runfiverun]

i have seen a picture of low tin alloys and the surface becomes mottled with tin,but in a uniformly dotted way.
if you increase the tin it starts to flow on the surface of the alloy but not uniformly,so it looks real patchy and builds up unevenly.

[olaf455]

303guy - I've been staying with the upper left side of the triangle (Sb=Cu) so that you get Cu2Sb, Pb with the 0.3%Cu as a 'dislocation' toughener in the lead. It acts like As in with Sb, forms in the lattice and keeps the lattice from shearing so easily. A smidgen of As keeps the Sb alloy in small grains. I have a report that states ~0.2% Sn helps but no reason is given as to why. I've shot 308 165 FN GCd with this alloy at the same load as 168 Amax (41g of H4895) with the same accuracy. Sorry, don't have a chrony and max load is 43g.

What twist rate is the barrel of your 308?

[303Guy]

Interesting, thanks.

My alloy before I cut it in half with lead pipe had shrinkage problems in my mold and that was all. The plucked sprue was crystalline and the freshly cast boolit bent easily. It hardened up pretty soon. The cut back alloy casts fine with a shiny surface and the sprue plucks into a sharp nub (nose pour with sprue 'funnel'). I swaged a .357 boolit into .318 with no problem although it took a fair bit of pressure. I see none of the described tin flow on the surface. I did note the sprue was stiff to cut on the .357 mold. Interesting stuff this unknown alloy. I tried dissolving copper into it but didn't succeed in the tinning so I'll try again with a new bit of copper. This is way too much fun to give up on!:-D

[357maximum]

BTW, I think that middle of the mitten guy is why I am going even balder. [smilie=1: I feel we need to understand the mechanics of the alloy to take full advantage of using it. We know the mechanical properties of the Cu enriched alloy is an improvement when trying to go fast but if we understand somewhat why, we might figure out other ways to further improve the alloys.

Edd

My Dad blames me for the same thing...maybe there is some truth to it??? :Lol: .......or maybe you both just are just plain full of it and I am being unjustly accused of folicide.


As far as the rest of your thoughts.....I totally agree but typing that is no where near as much fun as pulling your chain. Seeing as to how you want to kill all my fun I will have to agree that improving on things is good, keep thinking...you still have some hairs left. :mrgreen:

[madsenshooter]

Sb%+Cu%=Sn%, or so it is with Ideal's #1, 10Sn 7Sb 3Cu. I'm going to do a batch of it before long. Popper's method has caught my eye, especially for removing zinc, but I think the high Sn percentage of the #1 plays a big role in both the strength and malleability of the alloy.

[badgeredd]

Vrygd

[runfiverun]

that 165-b boolit is outstanding in the 308 rifles.
it's what i'm using in mine also,i'm only pushing about 2300 area right now.
might have to get back to some copper alloys and just shove it out the barell to see what gives.

[olaf455]

that 165-b boolit is outstanding in the 308 rifles.
it's what i'm using in mine also,i'm only pushing about 2300 area right now.
might have to get back to some copper alloys and just shove it out the barell to see what gives.

Mine is the DPMS carbine, hoot to shoot.
I am not familiar with the 165-B. Who makes molds for it?
I have been shooting the Lee 170 flat nose. Not as accurate as I like yet, gunna see what cu can do terminally, but not sure what to expect accuracy as I have not achieved accuracy beyond 3moa with this boolit.

[badgeredd]

Poohf

[btroj]

I wonder if he means it won't tell what intermettallic compounds are present.
The base metals are what makes up the ternary alloy.

[badgeredd]

Hodgj

[runfiverun]

the 165-b is made by accurate molds.

the analyzers sometimes will give you readings of stuff based on what they are told to look for.
sometimes they will read iron in ww alloy i have no doubt that there is [or could be] some in them, but not 4%.
the reader is telling you all the free stuff is iron because it's closest to what it's supposed to be looking for.

[badgeredd]

Well guys, I was wrong about being wrong. After reading a post today, I went into search mode and started reading everything I could find about intermetallic compounds. After 2 hours or more of reading I came to the conclusion that when one is after a BALANCED alloy we have to balance the sum of the copper+antimony = tin. Intermetallic compounds are made fron Sb & Sn and from Cu & Sn, so the SN = Sb + Cu. This is what I had said originally but had changed because I misunderstood something else I had read.

357maximum thought I was correct with my first idea and can now neener, neener.

Edd

[357maximum]

IF IT AIN'T BROKE...DON'T _______ FIX IT The Governement does a good enough job fixing things till they break and they do not like competition. :mrgreen:



I had faith in your work Edd, too bad you had to start thinking and losing all that hair eh?????????????


HAR D HAR HAR


NEENER NEENER NEENER.


When an alloy allows you do J-word speeds with accuracy in several mid/upper level calibers...how much can be wrong?.....I say....how much can be wrong???????????????????????????? :lol:

[btroj]

Yep. Results speak volumes. The what outweighs the why. Heck, it may not really matter long as some Cu is present. Might be like As?

[Doc Highwall]

Badgeredd, am I assuming correctly that you would need say 5% antimony + 5% copper and 10% tin?

[BABore]

More like 3.0-3.5% Sn, 0.5-1.0% Cu, and 2.0-2.5% Sb

[runfiverun]

i'm using 4831-sc right now, i'm up to 45 grs with a little room still in the case.
i have tried a filler with 44grs.
and wanna try some buffer but don't have any.
i'm using a long barelled AR-30 for the initial shooting so i'm getting all the use from the powder,it's just starting to clean up at 44.5 grs.
i'm still using a rather soft alloy because i'm also looking at the hunting side of this, so i'm trying to keep the malleability of the alloy as high as possable.
and the pressure down the barell as far as possible.
i'll eventually end up switching powders around to see what's what.
or adding a little kicker to the 4831.

[badgeredd]

Chgdf

[badgeredd]

aieou

[Jailer]

Boy this alloy sure does behave quite a bit differently than anything I've worked with so far. Do you guys get it wanting to stay near the slush phase at the top of the melt where it's exposed to the air?

I just got some mixed up with what I had in ingot form and this is what I ended up with. Haven't cast anything yet, it's getting late and I have to work tomorrow so casting will have to wait until I have more time.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/alloy_zpsb43bf16d.jpg

[kbstenberg]

I was just on Rotometals web site. There SUPERTOUGH alloy is sold in ingot size only. Does someone know how much there ingots weigh? Kind of pricey at 69$ an ingot.
I can see you only use .3 lbs per 8+ lb batch.
I just went back and checked. Ingots are 3.5 - 4 lbs. At that rate. An ingot should make about 12 batchas at 8 lbs each.

[Jailer]

The supertough ingots I got were 2.5lbs each.

[bearcove]

Dang I thought the WW's were killing them dead enough.

I'm getting a head ache but if this Alloying will field dress them ??

All I use is Solder thats lead free it is .4% copper to richen my WWs

[Nrut]

I was just on Rotometals web site. There SUPERTOUGH alloy is sold in ingot size only. Does someone know how much there ingots weigh? Kind of pricey at 69$ an ingot.
I can see you only use .3 lbs per 8+ lb batch.
I just went back and checked. Ingots are 3.5 - 4 lbs. At that rate. An ingot should make about 12 batchas at 8 lbs each.
I just ordered by the pound myself..
Ended up with several ingots and a part of an ingot..

[badgeredd]

Fidlw

[badgeredd]

hkgsw

[bearcove]

clipped

Note the highlighted sentence. Several things have been mentioned in my reading yesterday that influence intermetallic compounds, including but not limited to heat. SO...I also believe that our alloy temperature will affect our end results. IMHO, I think some of us are trying to over-simplify what is going on and some are over-complicating it.

As stated before, I have found that with my Lee Dripomatic, an alloy tempertature of around 725 degrees gives me the best boolits. YMMV!!!

Edd

Your heat(temp of melt) and cooling rates will probably affect the alloy a LOT.

[bearcove]

If it ain't broke...don't fix it. This is a specialized alloy for HIGH pressure loads primarily. If you are happy with what you're getting, why change?

Edd

Bearcove, I re-read this post and I don't like the way the answer seems a bit curt. I apologize if you find it the same.

No worries I was joking around and take your response in good spirit. I've been trying to simplify things and you are expanding on it.Keep it up!

Rod

[btroj]

I found an article on one that discussed how pour temp changed which intermettallic compounds prevailed. I think that is a bit what Edd was hitting on. The article mentioned 400, 500, and 600 degrees C. We don't usually go nearly as high as 600 C.
What it didn't mention was whether or not those intermettalics changed over time. Bet they do.

Could all of this be the reason Mike found his bullets changing slowly over time?

Like I said earlier, I am not as concerned with why something works as much as I am with knowing what to do to get consistent results. The why can be figured out later.

I think Edd is on the right path when he mentioned trying different ratios and testing. Then we have an idea what results to expect and we can have the alloy analyzed to get a better handle on what it needs to be.

[badgeredd]

Oiytr

[bearcove]

Sounds like you're understanding why you should quench WW boolits

Metalurgy is cool on the surface, but...

[badgeredd]

Eionz

[303Guy]

A long time ago I read and reported here somewhere that lead dissolves 0.16% copper at its melting point and more at higher temperatures. There's a term for that which I've forgotten now. Anyway, my point is understanding what is going on will help determine what needs to be done and what can be done. At least, those who can get their heads around it can determine these things.:roll:

In my early days I found an alloy and a casting method that produced two hardness boolits with the front half being softer. It was too slow for production but OK for making hunting boolits. Now if we could understand what made it happen we could repeat it and find a faster way of casting them. I do happen to have a sample somewhere so the alloy can be analysed. I don't remember if that was a copper alloy. I mean they came out the mold half hard half softish.

[badgeredd]

Eieio

[303Guy]

Could the term be eutectic you're looking for?That's it. Thanks. So, raising the temperature increases the solubility but does not cause a problem on solidifying? Anyway, I went for the eutectic solubility which doesn't sound much, but ..... it makes a big difference. I wish I knew what other constituents I had.:confused:

[badgeredd]

Dddddddddddd

[badgeredd]

Jjjhhgfdd

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

well finally a part that I can contribute to - in a way.
I'm not a metallurgist, but I was and engine machinist/ builder for many years.
Eutectic is the word. Add in Hypo- as in hypo-eutectic is when a element is added to a base metal below the precipitation point.
Eutectic is at maximum solubility, and hyper-eutectic is when you add more than the base metal can take.
This is how piston aluminum is alloyed with silicon for added strength and durability. A lot of pistons now are hyper-eutectic, and
what this does is floods the surface of the piston with silicon particles upon cooling. This promotes durability, and size stability resulting in tighter clearances,
which is why on most modern engines,the pistons will measure at near factory sizing on a tear down, but the block will be worn out.
I suspect we are going to find that with either a eutectic or hyper-eutectic lead alloy with copper, we will find a sweet spot if we mess around long enough.
Maybe why the other elements in our alloys show on the surface of the boolit, if over done.
One other question, doesn't arsenic promote stability in the alloy as far as hardness and size stability? If so, maybe we need to look at that
as a stabilizer as well?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

somebody messing with the springs and whizzers? forums acting very strange tonight :0

[MostlyOnThePaper]

I am definitely looking forward to it!!! I hope it's on a weekend I have off, that I can contribute more to the fun and hopefully stay for the whole thing instead of just showing up on Saturday... I learn so much from y'all I just have to worry about my head exploding!


I look forward to it, thanks.

I'm not nearly as experienced or bright as you guys when it comes to this stuff, but I am a good study. I'll try to keep good notes on what I'm doing so hopefully I'll have something to contribute.

I just wish I knew the makeup of this soft lead I have that I recovered from commercial jacketed pistol bullets. Melt temp and coloring when heated points to something very close to pure lead but Mike's trained ear says it has a bit of a Sb ring to it when you drop the ingots. I've been treating it as pure lead for my 50/50 water dropped stuff.

[badgeredd]

poppe

[btroj]

Intermettalics can change over time. Look online, there are many studies involving solder and the intermetallics formed when solder is joined to copper.
I don't think our alloys stabilize right away. This is where changes in size and / or hardness come from.

[bearcove]

The silver solder we use a lot is 99+%tin a bit of silver and 0.4% copper.

Arsenic might be a big factor for toughness. We have had alloy made for group buys with 0.25% arsenic. For that reason.

[nanuk]

In the end we may not have the ability to totally understand WHY something happens. I am happy enough to know WHAT happens. Knowing what to expect, when to expect it, and how to deal with its good enough to me.

isn't that kinda what Internal Ballistics is?

an edjumkated guess?

[btroj]

Pretty much. We use observation and analysis to figure put what, in general, works.

[bearcove]

Read some stuff I hadn't and see better where this discussion is, and If you want to think about As Cu as grain refiners in the crystaline structure in realtion to toughness I think that might be as far as it goes. Fine grain structure will give you more fracture resistance than a course structure. Don't know if there is any magic past that.

[bearcove]

As far as "toughness" goes it might be that fine grain structure may give you your ultimate "toughness" for the hardness you require for lack of deformation in a Large meplat terminal balistic situation. If thats what we are working.

[303Guy]

Well folks, I've just tested a copper toughened boolit (outside the bathroom into my test tube, right under the neighbours noses) and the results are - well, a bit disappointing. Way too much penetration and nothing to recover for examination. In short, the boolit shot right through double catch medium and disintegrated against the 4140 steel bottom container base (the first of two). Mind you, the boolit was pretty hard when I checked it before firing (can't tell you the hardness - I use a different measuring system that has no reference as yet). It is the same alloy that I beat into a disc a week or two ago. This alloy has been quietly hardening since first casting.

Oh, it wasn't exactly a slow boolit. I shot it with a full case of W780 and pressure signs indicate a moderate pressure load. The boolit was 201gr and the barrel 25 inches (303 Brit of course).

[runfiverun]

how much did the boolit grow from when it was cast?

[303Guy]

These won't go back into the mold! I didn't measure as cast so can't tell. I bet it's solved the nose slump/upset problem. I should try a hollow nose in the medium. I did cast some flat nose which I'm sure would work fine for hunting. It's going to be a few weeks before I can get out to the range with a chronograph. In the meantime I'll cast up few more and measure them. Then I'm going to empty the pot into ingots (fishing sinker molds) and try toughening COWW's and see what happens.

I should test fire into soft sand like I've done before.

[runfiverun]

i'm just data gathering is all.
i have heard some reports of around 10% growth.

[btroj]

10%!!!!!!
That means a 30 cal becomes a 338 bullet!
I could believe 1% but 10%? That seems a bit hard to believe.

Not questioning You Run, just the reports of that much growth.

[swheeler]

Just under .5% growth for 30 days on .9% cu alloy for me

[357maximum]

I have yet to see over a .8 to .9% and that was after waterdropping and hot storage for 6months .

[runfiverun]

grrr fat-fingered the board again disregard the zero..
1%.

[303Guy]

303guy - any idea of the alloy Sn/Sb/Cu %s? Your fps should be > 2400 (?).I did work it out with the copper being an unknown but I can't find it! I did post it under the copper sulphate thread.

[303Guy]

If this alloy grows in time then is it wise to leave it solid in the melting pot? I'm referring to a Lee drip-o-matic.

[303Guy]

303guy - any idea of the alloy Sn/Sb/Cu %s?

Here it is;

90% Pb, 6.8% Sn, 1.8% Sb, 1.5-2% CU

The copper is a guess, it could be less than 1%. Actually, the whole set of numbers are uncertain being based on known #11 Babbit and thought to be lino but which could be melted down pewter for all I know (but seems unlikely since no-one melts down pewter ware into ingots then sells it off as scrap metal to a recycler). The tin level does seem probable if not accurate.

[Iowa Fox]

I might have missed it along the way but Edd what is your railroad babbit? Thirty years ago we had one junk dealer scrapping old railroad cars here. The old cars had babbit axle bearings and I was lucky enough to get 50 lbs of it. Is that the same stuff as yours?

[badgeredd]

I might have missed it along the way but Edd what is your railroad babbit? Thirty years ago we had one junk dealer scrapping old railroad cars here. The old cars had babbit axle bearings and I was lucky enough to get 50 lbs of it. Is that the same stuff as yours?

Yes, that is exactly what I have. My father was a car repairman on the NYCRR, PennCentral, Conrail RR by the time he retired. When repairing "hot boxes" he'd scrape out the burnt journal box packing and save the babbit that had melted and accumilated in the bottom of the journal box. Of course since all modern rolling stock has roller bearings, the source died out probably 20 to 25 years ago. The babbit was analyzed and has the same components and make-up as Rotometals #2 (Rotonickel-.15% Monel).

A side note, we (Dad and I) collected so much babbit in summer of 1964 when I went with him to work (because he was on the road and had broken his hand) that I was able to buy my first car from the proceeds of selling the high tin babbit as scrap for $0.33 a pound. The car cost a whopping $100! I'd guess Dad and I had smelted and sold at least 2000# of the stuff while I was in high school. Wish I had known then what I know now, I'd have a lot more in a stash.

Edd

[Iowa Fox]

Edd, Thanks for the info and the intersting history of you and your Dad.

[badgeredd]

Rgnvi

[303Guy]

Might I suggest annealing a few just to see what happens?

[badgeredd]

mnbbbbbbbvc

[303Guy]

Good idea. Any testing to see how the alloy behaves would be fun.

Another thought - with oven heat treating the idea is to harden the boolits, right? Well, one can age the boolits in the oven. I've no idea what the ageing temperature should be . It may be below the boiling point of water or above. Thing is, if the alloy takes a month to harden then ageing could reduce that to hours or days. Mmmm ..... I'm thinking of an insulated low power oven like a modified table top oven (and I happen to have such an oven:roll: It has a hot plate which I use for smelting). I've used 5 watt power resistors as heating elements powered by a transformer for melting my 'waxy-lube'.

[felix]

Aging can be anything under 300 degrees, but much safer at 200 degrees MAX to be ABSOLUTELY safe as NOT to excite the elements as individuals or composites. Increase TIME in oven to go faster. You can put boolits in water, and when the water starts to boil as an indicator, turn the temp down a tad. ... felix

[felix]

That is correct, Popper! ... felix

[badgeredd]

ok

Edd

[felix]

Only if you feel like it, Edd. Take half of the boolits out at bed time. Leave the remainder in the stove at 200 until 1:00 tomorrow, for a 24 hour heat soak. Of those taken out, water drop half of them and leave in the water until 1:00 tomorrow. Now, at 1:00 measure each batch you have, including those from the initial casting session. Test hardness of each batch. Purpose is to test the progression of hardness. If they are all about the same, you can ASSUME the alloy was such that it hardened naturally early on and the new oven treatment was a waste.

Repeat the entire process twice more when absolutely bored: one lead batch with a very slushy mixture of elements, and another with a mix of stuff that is linotype in "name", or approaching that of genuine linotype made from scratch at home which must exhibit a very minimal slush stage, hopefully zero slush upon freezing.

The zero slush batch will exhibit absolutely zero hardness increase with any kind of heat treatment, or theoretically so. ... felix