Shooting cast through an SMG/ Suppressor?

[NoZombies]

Okay, I know there are several guys here who shoot cast bullets through their SMG's. I'm looking for input and thoughts on the subject.

I've got a .45 SMG that will be here as soon as the paperwork is done, and I'm in the process of getting things in place for it's arrival.

I'm thinking that a lighter bullet, say something in the 180-190 grain range, over as light a load as will cycle the action reliably will be about the most economical shooting, and produce the least stress on the gun. Any reason that I should load full house ammo? I've got the lyman 452488 mold, and probably 10K projectiles cast up already, so I hope they'll work alright!

What about with a suppressor? I assume that having a low-smoke lube will be good, but how badly does a can lead up with cast in the .45? Anything like they do in a .22? I haven't bought the .45 suppressor yet, but I'm thinking that a user serviceable can makes the most sense. Am I missing anything?

I'm thinking that I need to start stocking up on small primer .45 brass so that I can lose some without worry, especially if I go to plate shoots or other out of town venues. Has anyone experienced any issues with small primers in their .45 SMG's?

At the moment, I'm stocking up on magazines, spare parts, and loading components. I see now that 10K primers wont last as long as they used to...

[x101airborne]

I run cast through several Thompson SMGs without issue. I just use the Lee 6 cav 228gr roundnose with a real light coat of alox and bullseye for powder. I get a little smoke, but I like watching that typewriter type and the smoke adds to it. Like the old gangster movies, ya gotta have some smoke. I run cast through my Savage integral suppressed 308, no issues. I have not tried my STG44 yet. YET.

[NoZombies]

I have not tried my STG44 yet. YET.

I want video!

I'm hoping the lead won't cause too much issue through the suppressor, but I'm thinking user servicable seems to make sense, so that I can clean what lead does end up there. On a pistol, I don't think I'd worry about it, but at 700+ RPM I kind of assume the heat build up might exacerbate the problem.

[x101airborne]

like I said, as of YET I have had no problems. I just use a little brake cleaner to hose out the supressors and gas tubes every once in a while. And while it is not precise, I just put my finger over the exit hole and filll with brake cleaner, shake for a while and empty. I do get some dirty grit out, but when I only run around 500 rounds a session throu the supressors, it is not that big a deal.
I would use em and enjoy! I know I am!
Trey

[HARRYMPOPE]

I sent a buddy about 3000 WWII Era EC steel cases he used to load for a Thompson full auto.He used a RN 230 and tumble lubes with lee alox and it functions 100%

[Artful]

Okay, I know there are several guys here who shoot cast bullets through their SMG's. I'm looking for input and thoughts on the subject.

I've got a .45 SMG that will be here as soon as the paperwork is done, and I'm in the process of getting things in place for it's arrival.

What you got coming?

I'm thinking that a lighter bullet, say something in the 180-190 grain range, over as light a load as will cycle the action reliably will be about the most economical shooting, and produce the least stress on the gun. Any reason that I should load full house ammo? I've got the lyman 452488 mold, and probably 10K projectiles cast up already, so I hope they'll work alright!

Well, assuming you have an open bolt gun, it was designed with specific momentum pulse, in the case of 45 ACP ball ammo (230 grain at 900 fps) - to equal that with a 200 grain boolit you'll need to go about 975 - The easy way to check this is to load no more than two rounds in a magazine and set your selector on semi - if you have enough momentum in the bolt it will fire the first round and catch on the sear, if it does not have enough it will no go far enough to the rear to catch the sear and will strip the second round and fire it (which is why you load no more than 2) which would be a run away SMG.

What about with a suppressor? I assume that having a low-smoke lube will be good, but how badly does a can lead up with cast in the .45? Anything like they do in a .22? I haven't bought the .45 suppressor yet, but I'm thinking that a user serviceable can makes the most sense. Am I missing anything?

You pretty well have it - for SMG you want user serviceable and large volume - cleaning isn't bad of you prep the can.
- I'm using AWC MK 9 can in 45 ACP, Liberty Miranda in 45 or 9mm Mystic would be a good choice
- before shooting you want to disassemble and coat threads and even baffles with Never-seeze- best to disassemble when warm
- remember the lead/carbon/lube that builds up if waiting too long will make the can into a solid 1 pcs.

I'm thinking that I need to start stocking up on small primer .45 brass so that I can lose some without worry, especially if I go to plate shoots or other out of town venues. Has anyone experienced any issues with small primers in their .45 SMG's? never used any

At the moment, I'm stocking up on magazines, spare parts, and loading components. I see now that 10K primers wont last as long as they used to...
+1 on Magazines - as many as you can afford before next anti-gun attempt comes back around

If your using 30 round 45 mags look for the tall 50 caliber cans (fuses or NVG) - then load the ammo and put in magazines and put magazines in ammo can - ready to go to the range / match
if you are fortunate enough you should be able to fill two ammo can's of magazines and have one loaded to shoot and the other empty to be filled. :veryconfu
If you want you can take cardboard and make a grid to keep the magazines from rubbing the finish off each other.
You might want to invest in a LULA loader or something to help load magazines like Cammenga/Kvar loaders.

[NoZombies]

Thanks for the input guys!

The SMG on it's way to me is a Reising. I know they aren't the best liked of SMG's (maybe the least liked?) but there's a family history connection with the gun, the price was right, and all the stars aligned, so that's what I'm getting...

Being a closed bolt design, I assume there will be other considerations with loading. I have a lot of spare parts already on hand, and a new set of springs as well. I have a friend who assures me if it has any issues running, he can fix it (and has a dozen reisings that all run flawlessly, so I believe him)

This one was used in sub-gun matches by the previous owner, so I assume a lot of "issues" will have already been taken care of, but I'm prepared for more work, none-the-less.

54407

I have a spare barrel already, and it is currently being cut and rethreaded for a suppressor. I've just got to decide which suppressor to get, Thanks for the tips Artful, I'll be looking closely at your recommendations!

[Artful]

Thanks for the input guys!

The SMG on it's way to me is a Reising. I know they aren't the best liked of SMG's (maybe the least liked?) but there's a family history connection with the gun, the price was right, and all the stars aligned, so that's what I'm getting...

Congrat's - As long as kept clean and lubed they are an accurate and reliable SMG from owners I have talked too.
Biggest issue is magazines for 'em.
http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9688
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Reising/TroubleshootingChart_Web.JPG

Being a closed bolt design, I assume there will be other considerations with loading. I have a lot of spare parts already on hand, and a new set of springs as well.
I have a friend who assures me if it has any issues running, he can fix it (and has a dozen reisings that all run flawlessly, so I believe him)

This one was used in sub-gun matches by the previous owner, so I assume a lot of "issues" will have already been taken care of, but I'm prepared for more work, none-the-less.

I have a spare barrel already, and it is currently being cut and rethreaded for a suppressor. I've just got to decide which suppressor to get, Thanks for the tips Artful, I'll be looking closely at your recommendations!

For the closed bolt gun I'd actually suggest running some of the old loads like Unique - dirty but the way the pressure curve is helps with reliable operation.

[Artful]

Some links that are fun about your toy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7y4T27soM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7hvWgRSYM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KNSqpw8JE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ1BjntMmJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAbD3Dt5BbI

[NoZombies]

Artful:

Thanks for the links and tips! I hadn't seen all of those videos on the Reising before.

When you say that the pressure curve of the Unique type loads help with reliability, I assume you mean that a later peak in the pressure curve is more desirable? That makes sense, but I hadn't thought of it. I'll keep it in mind when working up loads.

I'v got a few of the Christie mfg 30 round mags, and will be ordering more as funds allow. A few of the factory 20 rounders are coming with it as well. I'm hoping that a half a dozen magazines will be enough to get me started, but I'm sure I'll always wish I had more!

I'm open to any other thoughts anyone has that they think might help, I've probably still got 6 months of waiting to do, but I hope to use that time wisely.

Thanks again!

[Artful]

When you say that the pressure curve of the Unique type loads help with reliability, I assume you mean that a later peak in the pressure curve is more desirable?
That makes sense, but I hadn't thought of it. I'll keep it in mind when working up loads.

Basically you want to as closely duplicate what the gun was designed for. In my limited experience with SMG and Semi-auto versions thereof - the SMG is more picky - I could get my semi-auto UZI to feed almost any nose profile but SMG only wanted RN loaded up to factory spec's to be reliable. Same with the Mac design - the single feed magazines seem to be better at accepting non-factory spec ammo but you still want the power level up there to avoid runaways. I have used from Bullseye thru Green Dot in 45 SMG's and Unique was about the easiest to work with - part of loading for this type of weapon is to have a bulky powder that you CAN NOT double charge with. I assume you'll be using a semi or progressive press, and it's important that you make it as foolproof as possible.
Also watch out for bullet tension so they can't be pushed back into the case causing higher pressures (Taper Crimp if you can). You'll also find the chamber will be bigger than pistols on most SMG's, and periodically you may need to run thru a non carbide die to swage the base back into spec's.

[NoZombies]

So far so good. The bulky powder thing is something I've thought a lot about, so no worries there.

I'll be reloading on a progressive, and taper crimping. I guess I'll load up 100 or so of each of a couple tries, and figure out what the Reising likes. I can shoot the leftovers in the 625. I'm hoping that being a closed bolt and single feed, I'll be able to get away with a little more than you can with your UZI, but then, the reising isn't known for reliability...

Being a closed bolt gun, I think the likelihood of runaways is reduced, but I'll keep an eye on it, and load two in the mag several times with any new load that's bellow the upper end of things.

[root]

My 1st post hello all.
I'm a long time reloader and cast boolit thrower.

And this thread got me out of the lurking stage and into the reg./posting stage.

To the OP:

I run a original Powder Springs M/10 in 45 acp with a original two stage can on it.
Zero problems ( can is take apart as all my cans are)

Pic of can and smg for ya.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/coveroff.jpg

And a vid of what kinda smoke to expect out of a cast sized lubed boolit running 1200 RPM
Click the pic to watch the gas out of the can and out of the breach.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/th_2012-08-04182929.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/2012-08-04182929.mp4)

I use the 6 cavity lee mold # 452-228-1R 6 cavity mold for the 45 acp liquid alox lube and the lee push through sizer in a Jr. rockchucker. with anywhere from 4.3 to 6.6 Grn of Unique powder. it's a open bolt so I use the different charges to control my rate of fire. Yours being a closed bolt I don't think it will matter then again I don't know.

I also use the 6 cavity lee 356-120-tc 9mm for all my 9mm.
Sized in a lyman 450 with soft non heated lube.

We have run it in my friends B&G reg. bolt mini uzi with his MK9 ( also take apart) with excellent results.
I run those @ 4.3 in a G17 with a wilson combat match barrel made for lead and a SWR Octane 9 HD 2nd gen. suppressor also take apart.

And just for fun here is a vid of my M/10 with my Flemming suncal kit, CCI subsonic ammo and my SWR Spectre 1st gen. Again take apart.

Notice a trend here? all my cans are FA rated and all are take apart.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/th_subcal.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/subcal.mp4)

I will sat this about the Rising SMG. DO NOT run hot loads through it. you will crack the receiver.
They are a cast receiver if I remember correct.

Also a suppressor is going to cause more gas blow back and
and higher chamber pressure. it may or may not gas you out.
You need a large volume can for the 45 acp.

In the 45 acp vid you see about 3 foot of smoke out the front and about 8 inches out the breach.

Hope I helped ya some any questions on cans and FA.

If you have any more questions let me know.

If I know I will gladly answer. If I don't know I'll tell ya I don't know.

[NoZombies]

Hi Root,

Welcome, and thanks for the insight!

I'd never heard anything about the Reising Receivers being a weak point, so I'll keep that in mind. I was aware of the propensity for the compensator to blow fins though.

Of the .45 cans on the market today, what's you preference? I'm looking at my options, and I like the idea of serviceability.

[Jailer]

Nice first post root!

I had an opportunity last November to purchase a NIB powder springs M-10 45 with a spare barrel and spare parts and 6 mags for $3500. The Warden balked and I relented and put the money towards our remodel. :cry:

[Artful]

Welcome Root - glad you came out of the shadows.

Jailer - sorry to hear of your problem with the Warden, hopefully you'll get a chance at another one.

[root]

Thank you for the welcome.

I'll tell ya this,,,,,

BUY ONCE CRY ONCE....

Look @ the Silencer Co./SWR line up. Or SRT.

BOWERS makes cans and so does MIMS, Degroat, and YHM.

(YOU will be disappointed in them) I am in no means bashin' them but do the search and you will see.

I wouldn't take a Degroat if all I had to pay was the 200 stamp, I think that much about them. And yes I have trigger time on two of them. (I'll bash this one)

Me and most of the people I shoot with all shoot CIII to some extent. Some of us more than others.

A Bowers, MIMS, or YHM will sound good until you hear it against another can. all makes!

(again ya get what ya pay for)

I know you want a 45 acp can so you will have to look for one.

You can buy a can like mine for about 75 bux and up + stamp
Also rememder the M/10 has the course threads and will need more time and money invested for it to work with your rising.
(keep all extra costs in your mind: threading/adapters/ and such)

Mine was 300 NIB and a two stamp piece ( 300 and two tax stamps) = 700.00 bux, But it matches the gun and is take apart.

If I were you and really wanted one I'd call SWR Silencer Co. or Liberty.
And probably Liberty 1st if you are going to shoot lubed lead.

Or hit the Storm board and put a WTB add for the OLD SKEWL can like I bought.

I had 30 offers in 48 hours.
Everything from dented tubes ( the Reg. part non replaceable) to the one I bought NIB.

Remember also you may not be able to use iron sights on the gun with certain cans.
My M/10 works with irons because it is all original and built that way can for the gun, gun for the can.

My Octane DOES NOT work with G17 irons and you have to sight over the can on my G17 ( I have a old turkey hunting trick for that) but works on my semi UZI, nagant 1895, and 300 blkout.

My Spectre works with irons on all the guns I own as it's a narrow tube.
7 K baffles and one blast baffle.

Some place to check out for a 45 acp can for the rising are.

NFATALK.org ( wild west get thick skin and be prepared to blast back)
Silencertalk.com (owned by AAC/REMMY) ran by Robert Silvers.
Again thick skin unless it's a AAC can. ( good info if you can take the heat)

UZITALK.com (moderated like here so NO BS)


Again I can't stress enough to call E-mail some of the bigger names and ask what works with a closed bolt FA and Irons.
Tell them what ya got.

You just may end up with a custom can for a extra hundred bux.

On a side NOTE I shoot my M/10 can wipeless ( it was desinged for wipes)

So it's a touch louder as the vid showed.

I'm not a operator just a guy that likes to shoot. so hearing safe is fine with me and my two stage is hearing safe without wipes. and hollyweird quit with wipes and 5.2 unique.
And it vents more gas minus the wipes.
Mainly bolt slap and boolit impact. with the load mentioned in my 1st post and this post with wipes.

Best of luck on your can.

I really should have bought that Rising I was offered 3 years ago.

2600.00 plus tax now they are creeping up to 5K

[root]

Again. Thank all of you for the welcome.....

And yes along with my title II stuff, I still enjoy my single shots,levers, and any aspect of the shooting hobby. From casting,to reloading (dillion) my single shots, levers, semis,single actions, and FA.......

AH .....! heck,
like the rest of ya all,
I like it all. It is my only real hobby.

[NoZombies]

Thanks for sharing Root! I'm sure you'll fit in here just fine.

I have a 3-1 ratio of single shots to semi's in the safe, but I love 'em all.

I got a pretty good price on the Reising, and being C&R, it can show up at my doorstep, so that's a neat trick.

Any experience with Thompson Machine cans? They're local to me, and I'm fairly certain I could talk them into making me something "special" if I ask just right...

I've lurked on some of the sites you mentioned, and from what I can tell, most of the guys at most of those sites are pretty good folks. This place is home for me though. I can't speak for everyone individually, but as a group, I can't think of a better bunch of guys to talk about guns with.

[root]

I have shot a Thompson Machine on a FA post sample 45 acp UZI.

Right before I got my can.... (SOT was trying to sell it to me)

There is a company I forgot about.
Had good tone was a mono core and take apart. Can't go wrong there.

And the price would have been right.

I just wanted the correct time period can for my gun. Or I would have bought one.

[Jailer]

I'm surprised to hear that about the Bowers can. There was a guy running one at a machine gun shoot I worked this summer and it was ridiculously quiet. It was a 9mm and he ran heavy subs and all you heard was the bullets impacting the burm. I was quite impressed by it. He posted a video of it and I'll see if I can go find it.

root, what do you think of the AAC cans? I know they aren't cheap but I've been looking to get a SDN6 for my 300 blk.

ETA: Found the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEaqz-a7LdU&feature=plcp

[root]

Only AAC can I have shot is a buddies TIrant on his FN/45.

Reviews look good on the SDN6 they are made just for the 300BO so they will run supers.

There is really nothing wrong with the Bowers cans accept they are rather long.
He stands behind his work but from what I have read the bower design is one step newer then my 1972 MAC two stage.

One thing about suppressors. Look around @ their prices. you find a 700 dollar can and one in the same cal. cheaper. then one more expensive same cal. and compare the sound data.

You will see real fast where your extra money goes and why.

Also to NoZombies:

Keep your riesing brass separate from the rest of your 45 brass.
MG chambers or looser to help with the fast cycling. and the cases bulge more due to this.

So while you can work the brass back to work in a 1911 there is no need to. just size it once, load itm and run it through the gun again.

I have seen my ammo not work in a custom Kimber all match tricked out 1911. It wouldn't fit the tight chamber.

And keep a eye on your brass. when it starts to split or get the "mushroom" base it's new barrel time.

I don;t mean one or two but whole mags worth of the stuff.
This was donated factory wolf that a guy brought to shoot.
He brought 500 rounds of this stuff and my chamber was already blown out. Funny part is 99% of the cases look like the few in the pic. but the gun had ZERO failures.
35 bux and a new barrel later the M/10 was fixed.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/wolf45acp.jpg

Here are some of the 45's that are now long gone down range.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/2011-07-01202251.jpg

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

was that supposed to be full-auto?

I shoot 311365 and 311247 in my 300 Blackout Semi-AR-pistol at about 1060fps thru a YHM 9mm Cobra II. Not that much smoke, and much quieter.

[root]

Slap that upper on a Reg M16 lower and try it in FA, it will smoke.

And yes it's a FA transferable. 1200 + rpm. Empties a grease gun mag. in 1.2 seconds.
That vid is controlled short bursts ( as it should be)

[NoZombies]

...That vid is controlled short bursts ( as it should be)

Awe come on man, everyone knows that the only way F/A's can be shot is to hold the trigger down till all's quiet. ;) That must be reality. I saw it on youtube.

Again, thanks for sharing all of your thoughts on this stuff. I'm gonna talk with the guys from Thompson Machine sometime in the next week or two, and see if they can help me out. Their SMG can looks pretty good.

[root]

OK hollywood style M2 carbine Reg. trigger pack.
No can J factory ammo and lots of gas on that rainy day.
Click pic for vid.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/th_MVI_0077.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/MVI_0077.mp4)

My friends transferable 1928 West Hurley with my cast loads.
Mag dump no can lots of smoke.
Click pic for vid.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/th_MVI_0076.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/MVI_0076.mp4)

More of my cast loads on the tommy gun.
This one just for humor GANSTA.......!!!!!
Only reason ya can even do a mag/drum dump on target with thing is the cutts comp, straight pull of the stock, and weight of the gun.
Click pic for vid.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/th_MVI_0086.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q169/armalite_ar50/MVI_0086.mp4)

It's one reason I wnt with the can I did it keeps the front end of the M/10 down and on target.

So, with FA the harder ya run, the harder it smokes, with cast or J it is going to smoke.
They do make a gas kicker for the M/10 and M/11 but I don't have one.
It's basically a brass plate that fits between the upper and lower that redirects gas from the ejection port forward.

Also shoot a M16 with a brass catcher and see if how bad ya get choked out......

I think the TM can is the way to go with the rising since it never had a factory can like the M series or the S&W M76

PS:
On a side note I have and like DD's too.

[NoZombies]

Cool vids! thanks for sharing!

Since none of my friends have NFA stuff anymore, I don't get to play with it as often as I'd like. I've some inbound transfers, but until stuff starts arriving, I can only pretend.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyj8qa2adio&feature=share&list=ULEyj8qa2adio


I haven't bitten the bullet on a DD yet, but I'm sorely tempted to get a launcher of some type... Would you mind sharing your experience Root?

[root]

The guy that owns the tommy, M2 carbine and B&G uzi bolt has a 20mm Lathi cost 17 bux a shot for his reloads.
I have a 26.5mm Cech Launcher on a F1 that I shoot thermite grenades through. cost me 10 bux a shot. Plus my time to load the shells mix the stuff so it ignites Thermite is a lot like casting. I shoot other stuff with it to. (thermite is my fav though)

I like to load a 3 inch GIJOE action figure in it with a parachute and 4 grains smokeless. Launch it straight up and let my kids chase it down.
I'm still looking for a safe 4 bore load for it. ( not break my shoulder)
And have a real CS gas reload along with the original Cech rocket formula that I have launching.
I paid the NFA entry fee and I reload.

WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING?????

No it's not the 40 mike mike. But it was built to punch a 3 inch thick high rise glass window @ 400 meters with a payload.

I guess they know I only use it for fun and entertainment.

SO anyone got a 4 bore mold for sale? or some BP or smokeless data to relaod with?

[root]

Just watched that vid you posted.
If I wasn;t already in the FA .22 arena with my M/10 I'd be all on that atkins stock

[Willbird]

Only AAC can I have shot is a buddies TIrant on his FN/45.

Reviews look good on the SDN6 they are made just for the 300BO so they will run supers.

There is really nothing wrong with the Bowers cans accept they are rather long.
He stands behind his work but from what I have read the bower design is one step newer then my 1972 MAC two stage.



I'v known Tom Bowers a long time, and I do not feel that statement is accurate at all. I'd encourage anybody to read Tom's catalog and see what he says about his products his words speak better than mine :-)

http://www.subguns.org/products/uncataloged/


The Mac two stage is an archiac design. I know Tom does stand behind his products, and many other mfg have come and gone since Tom started mfg in 1999....and owners of their products must seek a third party for work on their supressors. Advocating one product over another based on preference is fine....but to deride one product and make the statement that spending more money always gets you more can, or better customer service (to me it sounds like far worse customer service in some cases from what people are saying) is not fair play IMHO.

I also know Tom has changed his product line to suit what customers want, IE 22 cans that come apart for cleaning....

There is so much cool stuff going on at Bowers that if I were more wealthy I would truly have one of every can he makes, at least one.

Bill

[Willbird]

Slap that upper on a Reg M16 lower and try it in FA, it will smoke.

And yes it's a FA transferable. 1200 + rpm. Empties a grease gun mag. in 1.2 seconds.
That vid is controlled short bursts ( as it should be)

I have a buddy from TX, he has an HK51 and several huge "frankenmags" made by welding 30's together, one holds 70 rounds, he insists that the proper way to shoot the HK51 is to hold the trigger down until the mag is empty, so I comply with his wishes :-).

[Artful]

SO anyone got a 4 bore mold for sale? or some BP or smokeless data to relaod with?

http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/

http://do-itmolds.com/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=66&c=66

[root]

Not bashing Tom Bowers or his cans.
Fact is they are long.

When you hang that on the front of a rising it makes the gun really long,

He does do great work and rebuild my type of two stage. with a wipeless end can..

No disrespect ment to him or any other SOT.
Just a observation.

And with the Rising SMG how much do you really wanna hang off the end before it feels like you are swinging a concrete curb around?

[NoZombies]

Root,

Thanks for the info on the DD's. I'm just wondering if I have a place to use one... Of course, I kind of want a flame thrower as well, and finding a place to use that is gonna be nigh on impossible!