first post: Advice needed - 444Marlin with .434 Microgroove barrel

[JLDickmon]

so the son-in-law gives me this perfect condition .444 made around '70, with as I have come to find out, infamous "oversize" barrel..

I tried conventional jacketed pills from Sierra and Hornady, and got "decent" accuracy.
I had some 330gr hard casts I had got for my Super Blackhawk and I literally could not hit a barn from the inside with them.

Dinked around with powder speed, muzzle velocity, etc.

What are you guys shooting in these rifles?

I see Beartooth will size them up to .432, but with a .434 barrel, I'm thinking that still ain't gonna get it..

I thought about patching, but how small will I have to size them? Piece of copy paper is .003", and it would need to go around twice, right? can you even get a sizer that diameter?

[gray wolf]

Yes you can get a sizer that diameter, a member here Buckshot can make one for you, there are other members that can do it also. Hang in and I'm sure some others will chime in and help you out.

GW

[runfiverun]

accurate molds will cut you a mold to pour any size you need from your alloy,
436 is bout what you'll want.
if you wanna paper patch you want to size your core to .001 over bore diameter,then patch/size back to about .001-.002 over groove diameter.

can you even get a boolit that big to chamber..

[leadman]

You should try a softer alloy boolit so it will obtruate to fill the bore. If you can get some from 11 to 13 or so BHN it should fill the grooves.
I'll send you a PM on another tthought.

[longbow]

I have a .44 mag in a Marlin 1894 with oversize groove diameter ~ not quite as oversize as yours but still at almost 0.432".

I was using a Lyman 429421 that cast at 0.429" with fairly poor results.

I got hold of a Mihec mould that cast at 0.434" and it made a world of difference! I now have three Mihec moulds and one Accurate Molds mould for that gun and all work well. The smallest casts at 0.433" so still 0.001+ over groove diameter.

As runfiverun says, Accurate will make you what you want in any diameter. You would want at least 0.434" and if you can chamber 0.435" or 0.436" you should be good to go.

If you are thinking about paper patching, check to see if the gun has microgroove rifling. If it does, you may find that the rule of thumb of sizing the boolit to bore +0.001" doesn't work well. I found that with the microgroove rifling in my .44, the gun seemed to like a smaller boolit of about 0.421" patched up with 0.003" paper. Bore diameter is about 0.425" in mine.

I did try 0.425" boolits patched with thinner paper but didn't get good results.

Try a fatter boolit either GG or PP, I think you will like it!

Longbow

[brnomauser]

one thing to watch - that I learnt the hard way... Make sure your chamber is big enough for such an oversize bullet. My 45-70 micro groove slugged at 460, so I bought a mold from accurate molds that dropped at 462, and got buckshot to make me a 462 sizer. Turns out my chamber won't actually let anything bigger than 4595 in, so all that was a waste :( Kind of pisses me off the way marlin put such a small chamber with such a big barrel.

But it does shoot the 4595 bullets accurately with no leading at (I think) 1300fps with a GC. I'd like to up it a bit but am worried about leading with an undersize bullet. IMO it's this issue makes the micro grooves rifles a problem

[B.C.Jay]

I got a Saeco #431 mold for my 444 and it throws boolits at .434
I haven't shot them yet, as I still need a sizing die but it looks promising so far.

[cbrick]

Welcome to CastBoolits JLDickmon,

You can have the driving bands enlarged to whatever as cast size you need once you decide on which mold to get, Erik at Hollow Point Bullet Mold Service is a true craftsman at this and has done several for me. He's reasonable with an excellent turn around time.

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

Rick

[44man]

Remember Marlin made the .444 with 1 in 38" twist rates at the start and then changed to 1 in 20".

[JLDickmon]

Thanks to all who answered.
Especially Leadman with his PM and 44man with his twist rate comment..

Yes, these 330's are hard as a freeking rock. You can tell. I saw a few tell-tale smears near the muzzle upon cleaning the rifle and didn't think much of it at the time, but now the picture is becoming clearer.
And yes, I had also forgotten about the twist rate change.. the 1 in 38 twist rate might just be too slow for these and they're just wobbling their way downrange..

The whole reason behind this excursion was trying to find a heavier than 265gr. boolit taking advantage of the extra case capacity of the .444 vs. the 240gr. factory load (I commonly shoot a 300gr. out of my Super B'hawk) and a powder capable of launching them at around 1200-1250 without the load feeling like you're launching 300gr. @ 1250 fps.

So.. at the moment..
I loaded up the rest of those reducing the load 10% from where I was (40gr of VV N133) and made up some "ladder loads" in .5gr increments..

I have yet to recover one from the sand pit (and I dug DEEP.. talk about a lesson in momentum vs. kinetic energy) so I don't have any idea at all if the load is capable of obut.. obtur.. flattening out the powder end of the boolit to fill the grooves.. my gut feeling is no, they don't, because you can scratch them with a knife blade and tell they're a buttload harder in comparison to say, my .312 dia boolits I get from Missouri Bullet..

Now, another query.. If I decide to stick with these and paper patch them, how thick in thousandths of an inch is onionskin paper? I know 20lb. bond (copier paper) is .003..

I wouldn't necessarily be against patching them, because I shoot round-balls through a re-barreled TC Hawken.. they're patched.. albeit with pillow ticking..

[JLDickmon]

Oh.. and you guys may have to talk to me about casting my own.. I shoot a ton of cast as it is, but currently purchase them from commercial casters (Missouri) and through Midway/Powder Valley/Graf & Sons, etc.

I have a pretty much unlimited supply of wheelweights (I'm a service manager for a national tire chain store) but I also work 48hrs a week and run a draft horse farm.. spare time ain't just fallin' outta trees..

[cbrick]

I have a pretty much unlimited supply of wheelweights (I'm a service manager for a national tire chain store)

54367 My new best friend. 54367

Rick

[reloader28]

I agree with Leadman.
My 44 rifle is oversize. Once I started shooting soft, air cooled 50/50 boolits, the accuracy was WAY better because the boolit could expand on firing to fit the barrel better.

But since you dont cast your own, never mind.

[JLDickmon]

got some range time in last night with some 240gr SWC's I picked up years ago for my .44 Mag and well, basically forgot about..

powered by 20 grains of Blue Dirt, er.. DOT, you can actually get an actual group.. MV is still a calculation however.. (anyone wanna buy me a chrony for Christmas?),

I was able to recover a couple from the sand pit, and they were engraved pretty evenly, so even though they're sized .430, I know these are upsetting enough to fit the groove diameter..

which leads me back to this.. "Who in their right freekin' mind decided that 'harder is better' when it comes to commercially cast boolits?" And do they actually test the bullet, or just the alloy ingots?

Here's what was originally used..
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046216224/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-330-grain-lead-flat-nose

and if they have an actual Brinell of 15, I'll be a monkey's uncle, because I can barely scratch it with a knife, and I have some Missouri's that are Brinell 18 that I can shave big chunks off of, like that soap commercial.. the no-name brown box stuff I had I can dam near cut in half..

not that any of this should be taken as a rant..
Commercial casters are there for guys like me; that enjoy shooting cast & see no reason to shoot jacketed, and who handload anyway, so we can use that skill to our advantage..

Hmm.. maybe time to start clearing space in the garage for the future home of a lead pot..

[cbrick]

which leads me back to this.. "Who in their right freekin' mind decided that 'harder is better' when it comes to commercially cast boolits?" And do they actually test the bullet, or just the alloy ingots?

To me the term "Hard Cast" is evil. It is the cause of more discouraged cast bullet shooters than anything else because of leading and poor accuracy. It is a term invented by commercial bullet casters to help sell their products. It has no basis in what shoots best or is best for their customers. With the rigors of shipping if commercial casters made a proper BHN bullet for the intended purpose by the time it arrived in your hands it would be hammered doggie doo-doo. For the very same reason they use a hard bullet lube, hard lube stays on the bullet in the lube groove much better than an appropriate lube and has nothing to do with what is best for the guy shooting their products.


Hmm.. maybe time to start clearing space in the garage for the future home of a lead pot..

You betcha! Besides getting the boolits that you want & need as opposed to what someone else wants to sell you you'll get the enjoyment & satisfaction of making it with your own two hands. The best of both worlds. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Marlin Junky]

I thought about patching, but how small will I have to size them? Piece of copy paper is .003", and it would need to go around twice, right? can you even get a sizer that diameter?

If you are just getting started in creating your own .434" fodder, I'd recommend a visit to "Accurate Molds" who has a wide assortment of 44 molds:

http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=6

43-280G was designed with the 336 in mind but you need to check for fit yourself because of all the chamber variations. My biggest concern is the ability to chamber a .434"-.435" boolit... definitely check that out before you order a mold from Tom. The typical spec's for a 336 in 444 during that time period was .424"/.433" but I've never actually seen one with a dozen .0045" to .0050" tall lands! You may have a real shooter there, assuming you don't go nutty on boolit weight.

MJ

P.S. One other thing that I'd like to point out is that if you do in fact have tall lands and a short to non-existent throat, you might ask Tom to change the ogive on 43-280G from tangent to secant with a larger radius to prevent the lands from digging into the ogive near that .050" long leading band. This would shave a few grains off the total weight of the boolit but Tom can put it back by lengthening the driving bands slightly (you might want to beef up the band just behind the crimp groove anyway). The effect would be to put more of a truncated cone on top of that .5" long shank and move the CG (center of gravity) toward the base, slightly. Everything else should be fine and you'll more than likely be able to beat factory ballistics with this design and the correct alloy. If you have a need for something a bit heavier, retain the secant ogive with a short nose to accommodate the 1:38" twist. If you're going to have just one mold for this gun for awhile, I recommend the 280 because it can be loaded down to 44M ballistics without loosing accuracy. A .8"+ long boolit (give or take based on nose design) from that slow twist will need to be spun up pretty good (add velocity) in order to stabilize beyond short range.

[JLDickmon]

well that pretty much trips it..

I get a Lee to make drip art, and an RCBS to make bullets.. Is that how I read it? [smilie=s:

[Marlin Junky]

well that pretty much trips it..

I get a Lee to make drip art, and an RCBS to make bullets.. Is that how I read it? [smilie=s:

Rather than spending money for an RCBS bottom pouring furnace, I'd plug the pour spout in the Lee pot, toss all its linkage in the garbage and purchase a Rowell#2 ladle to go with my 2 or 3-cavity Accurate Mold (pouring anymore cavities over the lil' bitty Lee Pot could get messy... you do want your over-pour to go back in the pot.

MJ

[turmech]

If you would like to try some of the cast I shoot in my Marlin 444P I would be happy to send you a few for free. They are cast from an Accurate mold 432275M. This is the mold I had tom make for me. I would like to know how they preform in other guns. they work great for me. I have them sized with gas checks at .432. Only ones I have cast up right now are cast in my version of Lyman # 2 alloy. I can lube them or not (don't know how well they will ship lubed my lube is pretty soft). I load them with 44 gr H4198. They should seat in the case same depth as hornady 265 FP. PM me if you want a few.

[cbrick]

I get a Lee to make drip art, and an RCBS to make bullets.. Is that how I read it? [smilie=s:

The LEE will certainly make bullets, it's more a matter of how much aggravation your willing to put up with.

Rick

[Marlin Junky]

If you would like to try some of the cast I shoot in my Marlin 444P I would be happy to send you a few for free. They are cast from an Accurate mold 432275M. This is the mold I had tom make for me. I would like to know how they preform in other guns. they work great for me. I have them sized with gas checks at .432. Only ones I have cast up right now are cast in my version of Lyman # 2 alloy. I can lube them or not (don't know how well they will ship lubed my lube is pretty soft). I load them with 44 gr H4198. They should seat in the case same depth as hornady 265 FP. PM me if you want a few.

The Outfitter barrel spec's at .4305" +/-, his barrel spec's at .433". He's much better off with .434" boolits in his early 444.

MJ

[turmech]

no experiance with older 444 but will the .434 chamber? I had to use an undersized front band with my 444 just so it would chamber. I was just thinking I had some 432 he could try for free before ordering a mold and sizer in 433 or 434.

[Marlin Junky]

no experiance with older 444 but will the .434 chamber? I had to use an undersized front band with my 444 just so it would chamber. I was just thinking I had some 432 he could try for free before ordering a mold and sizer in 433 or 434.

That would be a good boolit design for him... what is your as-cast diameter? I used to shoot my AM 43-340B at .433" with good results while using 100% density charges of AA2520 and seem to recall trying to chamber a .434" (as-cast size) 43-340B with success. My guess would be a .434" boolit will chamber in his gun. I'll check the design spec's on 43-275 which may or may not need to be modified to fit his gun. Boolit shank diameter isn't the only variable that will prevent chambering in these throatless guns.

MJ

P.S. Regarding the design of 43-275M, the concept is great (the .425" 'bore-aligning' leading band) but if he's got any throat at all, the crimp groove will be beyond the case mouth when the round is seated to optimum COL. Briefly, to fit my gun, I would eliminate the crimp groove and lengthen the first full diameter band which I would "Lee Factory Crimp" on if necessary. I'd say this design is definitely worth a try in a '70 vintage 444... especially if it can be shot at .434".

[turmech]

I am not really sure of as cast diameter. With L#2 clone and WW there is a fair amount of force to size in a Lee sizer. The sizer seems to right on as advertised (.432 Ranch dog sizer kit).

I also have the RD 270 bullet mold but it drops barley 432 with my alloys.

[JLDickmon]

you guys are GREAT!
I'm learning exactly one buttload of information here..

And I've been reloading/handloading for 30+ years