Stepping up to better dies....

[Lizard333]

I have just completed a build on a Remington 700 action of a 27 inch, 1/6.5 twist, 223 barrel. I have been told that the set of Dillon dies I have been using, are not quite up to par for the accuracy needed to fully utilize the potential of my new rifle. That said I have been looking at reddings competition dies with the micrometer adjustments. Not only is the price a bit of a shock, but how complicated these dies are. After reading about these dies I am guessing I only need a sizing die and a bullet seating die. As I have been told the taper crimp I had been doing is not needed or wanted. My question is, are these the dies to get? I am going to be loading some VLD bullets, and I want to know if anyone has experience with these dies.

If redding isn't the best what would you recommend?

[Doc Highwall]

I have lots of Redding dies and what I like is being able to change the bushings in .001" increments.
Measure the outside of a loaded cartridge at the neck and buy a bushing .001" smaller then that.

I have both full length S dies and neck dies, depends what gun their going in.

[Larry Gibson]

The Redding or Bonanza bench rest dies would be my choice (actually the dies I use for my match rifles). I would also, as Doc recommends, include a competion Redding bushing die to just NS the match prepped (assumption on my part that the cases will be) cases.

Larry Gibson

[seagiant]

Hi,
I've used a set of the regular Redding Dies for probably 25 yrs for my 7.62x51 (.308) battle rifles. I don't think I would use any other brand. I've finally gone over to the Dark Side with an AR-15 in .223 and will buy another regular set of Reddings for that! In all that time I've only used Reddings customer service once and they are great people to deal with!

[snowwolfe]

What is the accuracy like using your Dillon dies? Did you measure to see if there is any run out of the bullet once seated in the case?

[1hole]

"I have been told that the set of Dillon dies I have been using, are not quite up to par for the accuracy needed to fully utilize the potential of my new rifle."

That may be true, it may not. And knowing anything about it for sure requires a good concentricity gage to check the cases and ammo, just shooting targets can get expensive and brings the fog of your shooting skill and wind into the evaluation.

Redding and Forster Competition/BR dies are consistantly quite good but even they vary a bit due to manufactoring tolerances but any benefit to the more costly dies is rarely automatic, the users skill, components and methods limit what any dies can accomplish. Dies of any other brandat any price are pretty much equal ON AVERAGE. Meaning I've found there's as much difference in individual dies of the same brand as between brands; a great die set requires two great dies and that rarely happens in any one box no matter the color of the box. There simply are no certainties; a great conventional die set of any brand can work as well as a much more costly set. My 'best' conventional die sets are individual sizer/seater dies selected out of several sets.

For my most accurate rifles I use a body die along with a Lee Collet Neck die. That way I can go neck only or do FL by using both sizers in sequence. Lee's Collet neck die is normally the best (straightest, easiest to use) neck sizer for SAAMI chambers and conventional cases. IF I had a 'tight neck' chamber which demanded neck turning before the ammo would chamber I would probably use a neck bushing die but I don't - and won't - have any such rifles in my gun safe.

For seaters I prefer Forster's BR die - which Redding copied - but both brands are very good; I use them with or without the micrometer head. A mic head is a user aid only, it does nothing for accuracy, and I'm going to do my seating according to a precision seating gage anyway.

One point to keep in mind is NO seater can seat straight in poor necks, you gotta select and/or prepare your brass first or a fancy seater probably won't do you much good.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally use the RCBS Competition Die for seating, and RCBS X die for sizing, and Dillon Powder die and measure for charging and a Lee Factory crimp die for crimping.

However I am loading for a Mini 14 and a Keltec SU16CA which are both semi auto blasters as opposed to your tack driver.

If I was loading for the ultimate tack driver I would be using Wilson hand dies and neck sizing only

I am not a big fan of Redding dies and this stems from a debulging die I bought which was WAAAAY too expensive and when it got to me was a complete ***! The machining was so bad I cut myself on one of the sharp edges.

What really pissed me off was the fact that they didn't want to exchange the die and refused to believe that my assertions were true. So I sent the die back to Midway with a nasty letter and got a slobbering apology from Potterfield himself.

Their equipment is over priced IMHO. I own a Machine shop and I have some idea what good machine work looks like. This one die I got was a disgrace! It was a Carbide .40 S&W debulging die, and it was $65! it was replaced with a Lee FCD for $12!

All that said, I have several other Redding die sets and they are nice, however I do not for one second believe that they are twice as good as RCBS dies, and certainly not worth twice as much.

The Wilson neck sizing die, bullet seating die and related tools are way less than a set of Redding dies. Many hi end bench rest shooters use Wilson Reloading tools so they must work right. Effectively these tools are just finely made Lee classic loading tools. So it doesn't take big comittment to get first class results.

Just my .02.

Randy

[Fluxed]

Unless speed of production is more important than quality, you want a bushing style sizer die to use in your current press and a Wilson straight line seater and an arbor press.

[geargnasher]

I have just completed a build on a Remington 700 action of a 27 inch, 1/6.5 twist, 223 barrel. I have been told that the set of Dillon dies I have been using, are not quite up to par for the accuracy needed to fully utilize the potential of my new rifle. So you've been told. Now, what qualities exactly do the Dillon dies lack that make them "not quite up to par"? If you understand that, you will be better able to answer your own question. That said I have been looking at reddings competition dies with the micrometer adjustments. Not only is the price a bit of a shock, but how complicated these dies are. After reading about these dies I am guessing I only need a sizing die and a bullet seating die. As I have been told the taper crimp I had been doing is not needed or wanted. My question is, are these the dies to get? I am going to be loading some VLD bullets, and I want to know if anyone has experience with these dies.

If redding isn't the best what would you recommend?

Redding is an excellent choice, as are some others. What is key is HOW YOU USE THEM. How you prep your brass, the tolerances you keep, the things you do to certain parts of the cases, and how you fireform them and maintain them is where the accuracy is found. How you ACHIEVE those accuracy tricks is up to you, and the tool selection needs to be based on your process. In other words, just buying a set of "Brand X" dies, because somebody says they give the "best" accuracy, isn't going to help you much if you don't follow the whole process that gives you the "best" accuracy. Kind of the same thing as saying that one powder brand is better than another.

As an example, I have several sets of Lee sizer dies that will rival the best custom match-grade dies out there, but they've been modified by me to do very specific things to the brass, such as some of the competition dies do on a more "generic" basis. There is nothing I know of that can make a Lee seater die suitable for really accurate match shooting, though. You NEED a seater die that fully supports the case in a sliding sleeve for the absolute most concentric ammunition, and several companies make excellent products to do this.

Gear

[Bullet Caster]

Nice rifle there, Seagiant. Is that the .223 you got? I'm thinking of getting a .308 rifle 'cause there will be plenty of NATO rounds laying around the battlefield if and when TSHTF. Heck, eventhough I don't care for the AR platform, I just might reconsider that possibility 'cause 5.56 will be plentiful as well since it too, is a NATO round. May even wait on that one and just collect some dead government soldier's weapon laying on the ground along with his ammo. BC

[Clark]

I hand load for a number of rifle cartridges;
19 Badger
223
243
6mmBR
25-35
257RAI
257RAIR
260
270
7mmRM
30-30
308
30-06
7.62x39
7.62x54R
8v57
45 Colt
45acp
222
22-250
6.5x55
303 Sav
303 Brit
300WM
300 Sav
7.5 Swiss
338WM
44 mag
50CB

When I start out a new one, these days, I get:
1) Forster FL honed out neck at the factory
2) Forster seater die and then modify the stem
3) Lee collet neck die and then polish the:
.a) collet
.b) collar
.c) mandrel/ decapping pin

I have given up on Dillon, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, and a lot of other brands I also own.

YMMV, as personal taste has a lot to do with it, but I am hung up on concentricity.

[seagiant]

Hi BC,
No,that is my DPMS with a 7.62X51 chamber,20"HB and Magpul Furniture. I have a buddy that builds AR-15 223's and he calls it the "Beast"! Just got it together and am now reloading for it. Of course after Randy's post above, I threw my Redding dies in the crapper and I'm going out to buy some LEE dies!!!

[geargnasher]

YMMV, as personal taste has a lot to do with it, but I am hung up on concentricity.

Ditto. Whatever it takes to get that and build fixed ammunition that fits the chamber as closely as possible.

Gear

[Love Life]

I am in the same boat as the OP. Where I stand now though is I really don't believe I'll gain much by going to different dies (more expensive). Here is my story:

I have been shooting a FN SPR A5m rifle. It is FN's 308 sniper rifle. Using LC LR brass, 175 gr SMK, BLC-2, and CCI 200 LRP this rifle has yet to print over 2.5 inches at 300 yards. Now this is even during ladder testing, and while fighting our wonderful Nevada winds. The majority of the groups we shoot are under 2 inches at 300 yards. we (two of us shoot this rifle) are still working the nodes of the load ladder, and haven't even settled on THE load yet.

What dies am I loading this ammo with? Standard RCBS 308 winchester dies.

What I do is use a comparator on my bullets, weight sort my bullets, have found my jammed depth, and indiviually weigh all powder charges. What am I saying here? This rifle is dead nuts accurate, and I don't really see any benefit to more expensive or special dies. Shoot your rifle first and see what she does with ammo made by your current dies, then make the decision

[1hole]

"...a debulging die ..."

I've been an avid reloader since '65 and have no idea what a 'debulging die' is. I've never seen any such thing listed in any catalog so I can't even guess what could be so sharp on one as to cut anything. ??

[Lizard333]

So you guys think I should get a lee bushing neck sizer, and a redding competition seating die? Just making sure before I spend the coin.


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[geargnasher]

So you guys think I should get a lee bushing neck sizer, and a redding competition seating die? Just making sure before I spend the coin.


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You still haven't given us any specifics. That's a good pair to buy for most stuff, though. You'll need to mod the Lee Collet sizer die for cast, probably make a bigger mandrel for it. Same with the seater if the neck portion of the sleeve isn't big enough.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I am in the same boat as the OP. Where I stand now though is I really don't believe I'll gain much by going to different dies (more expensive). Here is my story:

I have been shooting a FN SPR A5m rifle. It is FN's 308 sniper rifle. Using LC LR brass, 175 gr SMK, BLC-2, and CCI 200 LRP this rifle has yet to print over 2.5 inches at 300 yards. Now this is even during ladder testing, and while fighting our wonderful Nevada winds. The majority of the groups we shoot are under 2 inches at 300 yards. we (two of us shoot this rifle) are still working the nodes of the load ladder, and haven't even settled on THE load yet.

What dies am I loading this ammo with? Standard RCBS 308 winchester dies.

What I do is use a comparator on my bullets, weight sort my bullets, have found my jammed depth, and indiviually weigh all powder charges. What am I saying here? This rifle is dead nuts accurate, and I don't really see any benefit to more expensive or special dies. Shoot your rifle first and see what she does with ammo made by your current dies, then make the decision

You can get away with a lot using jacketed that you can't with cast and expect the same results. Much more 'technique' involved getting cast to shoot. Think full-on benchrest prep procedures and a lot of special tricks to get the same results you would with a set of off-the-shelf, standard dies and jacketed bullets.

Gear

[fatnhappy]

By all means please sell me those crappy dillon dies when you pony up to Lee dies.

Seriously, unless you can quantifiably demonstrate they're sub-par I seriously doubt you're going to be able to demonstrate the new selection of dies is somehow better.
Near as I can tell you're more concerned about the opinions of others than you are coming up with a set of criteria to objectively assess your dies.
My two cents, critically evaluate your loading technique first. Are you taking the backlash out of your die threads? Are you sizing excessively? Are you sizing square and true? Are your expanded necks straight? Have you measured case run out before sizing? After expanding? After seating? Do standard dies even make sense? Shouldn't you buy an arbor press and wilson dies? Why don't you have custom dies cut with your chambering reamer? Have you uniformed your cases?

And so on......

I'm not trying to pick on you but following the advice of someone who sight unseen decided your dillon dies are sub-par is like taking financial advice from a stranger on the subway.

Wahnsinn.
YMMV



For the record, I used to have a 6mm BR built by Tom Fargnoli. My dies of choice were a redding bushing die and a forster BR seater.

[btroj]

When shooting highpower I mover froma Hornady die set to a Redding Bisho die and a Forster BR seater. Did this because my 600 yd groups were huge. Checked runout and it was around .007. Changed the dies and it became closer to .001. Groups shrank a bunch too.

I would check and verify that your dies are making bad ammo before I replaced them. they may surprise you a bit.

[Lizard333]

I know my seating die with my dillon leaves a ring on my VLD bullets. I also have no way to neck size only. I just have the three die set from dillon. I will only be using commercial or my own personal swaged bullets in this particular rifle.

Are there different collets for the lee collet sizing die? I'm looking at the competition die with the VLD bullet seating insert from redding.

Both of these dies are on sale at Midway thru the end of the month.


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[geargnasher]

I think you need to figure out exactly what you're trying to accomplish and buy the specific tools required for the job. If you aren't uniforming necks at the very least then none of the fancy dies will help you much.

Gear

[wrangler5]

Before spending money on new equipment, I'd load up some ammo with the equipment you've got and see how it shoots. If the first groups aren't to your liking, try some other loads varying the powder charge up and down and see if it makes a difference in group size. Only if you can't get groups down to the size you want with the equipment you've got would it make sense to start worrying about getting new stuff.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well I load as I said before with a set of regular Redding dies for my various battle rifles and have never seen what the run out is? I went in the shop and not having anything else chucked a reload in my lathe at the neck with a 3 jaw chuck and put a dial indicater on and got .005 runout out on the base near the web of the case. I DO NOT know how good of a technique that this is but about the quickest way that I can do it. I don't know what "bad" ammo is or what is bad or good run out? I think for MY intended purpose I'm fine with what I have!

[MtGun44]

The biggest gain on the benchrest dies is the floating sleeve to align the jbullet accurately
to the case axis and make straight ammo. Redding and Bonanza have this is their super
expensive dies.

Hornady has it in ALL of their New Dimension dies. I have pretty much switched to all
Hornady for new die sets, esp if I think that I will load a lot and want best accy ammo.

Bill

[wrangler5]

The biggest gain on the benchrest dies is the floating sleeve to align the jbullet accurately
to the case axis and make straight ammo. < snip >

RCBS competition dies have this feature too.

[W.R.Buchanan]

1 Hole: .40 S&W cases fired in guns like Glocks or other auto pistol develop a bulge near the base of the case. Not removing this bulge can lead to case failure after reloading.

A regular sizing die only makes this bulge worse as it doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the case.

A debulging die is a push thru sizing die which removes the bulge and returns the case to a cylindrical form. It works just like a push thru Boolit sizing die.

Redding makes two dies which do this, one is a plain die and the other is a carbide ringed die.

The die in question had misshapen knurls which were so bad any machinist who was actually paying attention would have scrapped the part in a second. The knurling tool carried desbris from the previous part onto the new part and ruined the knurls.

But what actually cut me was the threads on the outside of the die. They were cut way too deep and as a result the threads had a knife edge on the crest of the threads.

This is totally unacceptable machine work and non existant QC on a die that was selling for $65!

On youtube there are vids of people using Lee Deluxe FCD's with the crimp ring removed to do this operation. The die is $10-12 and works perfectly. I have debulged thousands of cases with mine. Lee also sells a Bulge Buster Kit which contains all the other parts necessary except the die. I also sell a pusher for this operation.

If you would like more info on the Debulging operation there are several threads in the sticky section.

Randy

[wrangler5]

Now I remember why I shoot 9mm. :roll:

[o6Patient]

I hand load for a number of rifle cartridges;
19 Badger
223
243
6mmBR
25-35
257RAI
257RAIR
260
270
7mmRM
30-30
308
30-06
7.62x39
7.62x54R
8v57
45 Colt
45acp
222
22-250
6.5x55
303 Sav
303 Brit
300WM
300 Sav
7.5 Swiss
338WM
44 mag
50CB

When I start out a new one, these days, I get:
1) Forster FL honed out neck at the factory
2) Forster seater die and then modify the stem
3) Lee collet neck die and then polish the:
.a) collet
.b) collar
.c) mandrel/ decapping pin

I have given up on Dillon, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, and a lot of other brands I also own.

YMMV, as personal taste has a lot to do with it, but I am hung up on concentricity.

I very much agree that concentricity is one of the 2 most important things regarding accuracy
in my humble experience.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Greg: To check concentricity on your .308 cases you can lay the case in a vee block with a magnet for a stop on one end. Then an indicator on the bullet base and then the nose will tell you how much runout you have.

.005 probably wasn't a good accurate reading, because if you got .005 runout the way I stated above the round would only be good for plinking as the bullet would be noticably wobbly when the round was rolled on a table.

Most good rounds will be .002 or less, and if the brass is prepped well and you use some kind of decent seating die (and your Redding dies are probably good enough :kidding:) you will probably see less than .002 on all of your loads with .001 or less being more normal.

Where you run into problems bullet seating is when you use conventional bullet seating dies where you sit the bullet on top of the case and then run it up and seat the bullet which is probably not in line with the case at all. Since the bullet is not started into the case strait and relys on the seating stem to "center it up" as it is pushed into the case, there is a better than even chance it won't. If you add crimping to this operation then the bullet will be crimped in the bad position just making things worse.

Strait line bullet seaters that allow you to drop the bullet in from above, and have holes that are only slightly bigger than the bullets themselves, don't allow the bullet to vary from coincidence with the case centerline hardly at all. Thus the bullet is shoved into the case mouth strait in the first place, which yields less runout or totally eliminates it altogether.

Any of the current straitline seaters out there will accomplish this easily.

Crimping for an auto loader is another operation which needs to be looked at closely. I started out loading .223's using a regular RCBS bullet seating die with the seat stem removed. I found out wuickly that unless every case was the same length that the crimps would vary with some actually bulging the case ebhind the crimp which makes that round not chamber.

I started using a Lee FCD which crimps all the cases the same way regardless of the OAL of each case itself. Some long cases have a little more crimped material in the bullet cannelure, and some a little less, but this doesn't affect the way the round chambers or shoots. With the guns I am shootin .223's in minute of paperplate is good enough. It's more about quantity than perfection. You still have to try for it though.

Randy

[o6Patient]

I have mostly rcbs dies but also have reddings lee hornady and maybe a lyman set or
two thrown in.
I'd be shocked if any of them have a 5 thou run out. Just don't believe it.
If one did : that would be a defective one and not normal in my humble opinion.
Especially redding or rcbs.