Barrel came loose????

[oldracer]

Took a couple of the 45-70 cartridge guns to the range yesterday and it has been a month or more due to working up loads for the muzzle loaders. Anyways, I have a Rolling Block with an original action and a Badger barrel that usually shoots very accurate. Yesterday it seemed to be all over the place and I figured it was just me and the fact the gun felt a little stiff inside so I decided to pull it completely apart once I got home. After a good cleaning, greasing of the friction points I started the reassembly. I was holding the barrel and was inserting the trigger assembly when the action seemed to move and spin slightly?! I checked and found the barrel had come loose and was less than hand tight! So I pulled it out, cleaned the threads, both internal and external and then put it back in and tightening it well. I tried to get about 10# which is what I read is what the factory used. I also used a bit of purple lock tight so the joint should stay snug so we'll see. I did check the front/rear sight alignment and had to make a new shim for the rear tang sight and will use the laser sighter to see how much things changed.

Thought you might be interested in this as I have not seen many posts about loose barrels?

[Reg]

Something is wrong here. Sounds like the barrel was poorly fitted in the first place. Generally you want a very close thread fit all the way through and about 3/16 inch "draw up" at the end to properly tighten that barrel. You do want a little less pressure to tighten a rolling block action than a solid bolt action but not that much less.
Loc-tite may hold it. Have never used ( or needed ) it but others may have experience here. Some of these new locking agents are good.
Are your sights still at top dead center ? Better check the headspace as well.
Think if it were mine, I would cut off the extension , re thread and refit.

:coffee:

[oldracer]

The thread resistance was even all the way through and they were pretty well oil soaked which surprised me as I don't goop too much of that stuff on the black powder guns. After cleaning and de-oiling they were smooth with no wobble at all. The gun was made by a local home grown gunsmith and has absolutely nothing on it that is straight except for the sights and the bore of the barrel! It is amazingly accurate for sure. I did check the front globe and had to adjust the shim that is under the right side of the tang so it is vertical when the little level in front is flat. I checked seating and test firing several cases with just primers and they all worked fine so I do not believe there is any issue with the shell extractor not closing all the way. We'll see next week as I'll give it a try to see how it shoots now.

On a related note I had to make a cartridge seater for the Rolling block as I bell the cases slightly so they have to be "helped" into the chamber to fully seat and I want to try that also. Seems there are many for Sharps but none for the RBs?

[bob208]

3/16 sounds like a lot of pull.or are you talking about rotation? i would make some compression sleeves to put between the action and barrel. keep working at it till you get the right drawup.

[oldracer]

I talked to Doug Knoell this afternoon and after he got finished laughing and nearly giving himself a heart attack, he told me how to fix it and what to look for. He noted the original builder probably used thread sealer and it dissolved from the cleaning stuff? His procedure is as follows:
- Mark the barrel to get original position.
- Pull the barrel out and throughly clean the internal and external threads of all oils and such.
- Block the receiver in a vise with wood blocks and make it level. Check the tang to make sure it is also vertical.
- Back the barrel out about 10 to 15 degrees and make a stop mark.
- If threaded joint has any play, wrap some teflon tape around the barrel threads to tighten it up slightly.
- Put a ring of tape around the barrel just in front of the threaded area.
- Mix up some J-B Weld fast setting type and screw in the barrel to the 15 degree mark.
- Add the J-B around the shoulder where it contacts the receiver trying not to make a mess.
- Let J-B setup and get hard, just before it gets very hard, shave off excess.
- Then using brass protectors and a big wrench, screw the barrel the rest of the way in and it should be pretty snug.
- Remove the tape and any excess J-B from the area.
- Make sure top of barrel is level and both sights line up.

So tomorrow I'll give this a try and report back but Doug said he has done many, many old rifles that have had loose barrels and this is how he fixes them. As you mentioned there are 0.001 washers that can be used depending on the thread diameters you are working with.

[Mooseman]

In almost 40 years of gunsmithing I have NEVER heard of doing a "JB Weld" job like this...My Mentor would have Beat me with a stick.
Teflon tape is for PLUMBING..not gunsmithing. Acraglass is for gunsmithing , not JB weld.
We would have Machined up a Crush washer and re-torqued the barrel. If the threads are bad , then we approach the fix differently.
Sorry, But I just gotta shake my head against a wall...[smilie=b:

Rich

[Gtek]

In my experience barrel draw is usually between five and seven degrees which is a variable due to thread (TPI). If you are using mud to secure your barrel as desribed mounting receiver in vise and hanging barrel. I would think barrel weight and arm what ever slight amount of thread clearance will drop barrel from perfect centerline/receiver face and un-square shoulder- IMHO. Do you know anyone with a lathe that can roll press shoulder or make washers, shoulder cut and make washer shims for correct timing. A RB also has the clearance cut for front pin which should not be issue if timed back correctly. Also now thinking as typing leaned into RB receiver strength, without symetrical receiver face contact might we be stressing that super strong front end of that piece. #1,#5, Pasta, your piece, your nose, your call. I would take a breath, just saying. Gtek

[Reg]

Final rotation. Actually, with the rolling block frame 1/8" would do just fine but sure as heck you do no want it loose.

[M-Tecs]

get some .001" or 002" shim stock.


http://www.toolfetch.com/shims-605-16195.shtml?gclid=CJmrg4OX37MCFc5cMgodHxsAdg

http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Shim-Stock-Rolls-shimstock/dp/B009SBC8Y8

[waksupi]

I saw some real jackleg gunsmithing suggested here.

[oldred]

JB weld "might" be acceptable for use in tightening a stock or forearm in some cases, although there are much better options for that, but to tighten a loose barrel? That's just so wrong in so many ways I just can't imagine a gunsmith doing such a thing!

[oldracer]

I figured the J-B would get lots of comments? When I was a nuclear machinist in the Navy, we always took a bunch of that with us on deployments and had used it to repair castings that could not be welded and it worked on pressures up to 500 PSI and temps to 300 degrees or so. Note I said he also mentioned using thin washers or shim stock but cutting the washers so they are flat and even is really pretty hard as I have had to do that is the past. I looked and so far have not found any commercial ones the right size and thickness.

[Reg]

In almost 40 years of gunsmithing I have NEVER heard of doing a "JB Weld" job like this...My Mentor would have Beat me with a stick.
Teflon tape is for PLUMBING..not gunsmithing. Acraglass is for gunsmithing , not JB weld.
We would have Machined up a Crush washer and re-torqued the barrel. If the threads are bad , then we approach the fix differently.
Sorry, But I just gotta shake my head against a wall...[smilie=b:

Rich

Amen !!!!!!
If it isn't right to begin with you go back and make it right. JB Weld has ruined more things than it ever fixed.
Proper barrel fit is the single most important part of the game. Without it you can lose fingers , eyes and lifes.
This is serious stuff here, no place for "jack legging".

[oldred]

Amen !!!!!!
If it isn't right to begin with you go back and make it right. JB Weld has ruined more things than it ever fixed.



Being an equipment maintenance/rebuilder for 40 years I have seen JB weld used for about everything and except for a few low stress situations it usually just made a mess, good grief the &%^$ is nothing more than epoxy with some metal powder mixed in! JB weld is a perfect example of a mediocre quality product that owes it's success more to a slick sales pitch than actual quality and lots of people have come to expect far too much from it. Cobbling a barrel on a rifle using this stuff is the kind of thing that leads to serious accidents, NOT SAYING it's dangerous in this instance but the willingness to use it for this type of repair is the kind of thing that disasters arise from.

[Bullshop]

I have fixed that problem by peening the barrel at the contact shoulder. Peen the entire circumferance of the barrel shoulder acts like a compression washer for a crush fit. Turn it up to the original index marks if that is where the correct headspace is. I have done it this way and it worked for me. If done carefully the peening is almost not noticable. Its has happened a couple time with guns purchased on internet auctions. By the time I got them in Alaska the inspection window was closed so they were mine. That is how I fixed them. One is a 6mm/06 that easily does sub moa so I guess I didnt hurt it.

[Mooseman]

I have fixed that problem by peening the barrel at the contact shoulder. Peen the entire circumferance of the barrel shoulder acts like a compression washer for a crush fit. Turn it up to the original index marks if that is where the correct headspace is. I have done it this way and it worked for me. If done carefully the peening is almost not noticable. Its has happened a couple time with guns purchased on internet auctions. By the time I got them in Alaska the inspection window was closed so they were mine. That is how I fixed them. One is a 6mm/06 that easily does sub moa so I guess I didnt hurt it.

I think you mean Stippling where you raise the surface with center punch dots so it works like a crush washer when tightened ? A much better way than hammering the outer edge of a barrel...
There was only 1 compound allowed in the Machine shop for use in some situations...Belzona 1111 Super metal.
Makes JB weld look like Chewing gum as far as strength and durabilty and machinability goes. If it was something we could not weld with Tig, mig or stick or torch or Spray Metal then we could use Belzona and remachine the part.
Rich

[oldred]

Peening (yes more correctly stippling), like knurling, is of course a way to raise metal and take up a few thousandths of clearance to restore a worn fit. In many cases it is an acceptable way to compensate for wear but it is a metal-to-metal mechanical repair not just filling up the clearance with a soft epoxy type adhesive, and compared to even mild steel JB weld is extremely soft and WILL break down when subjected to repeated shock or bending loads! In repairing things like gear boxes and other mechanical devices that wore out shafts, bearing fits and housings, I have seen a great many failed attempts at repair with various epoxy concoctions such as JB weld many of which did not have as much load on them as a barrel/receiver fit. I honestly am not trying to pick on anyone here it's just that in my line of work I have seen so many "cob jobs" of various types that I have come to believe that products like JB weld have done so much more harm than good that I was simply astounded that a person who claims to be a gunsmith would use these products on a barrel! Certainly a product such as this has no place in a gunsmith's tool kit!

[oldracer]

Well it seems like the hang up is the J-B itself and not the use intended for it? As noted in my first couple of posts I said the gun was an original receiver and that the threads were a smooth and even fit with no slop, just no take up at the end. I would imagine there used to be but the barrel was put in probably 15 or 16 years ago by a builder in his garage. The use of the shim washer or J-B would both do the same thing, create a new shoulder to tighten the barrel against. In this case it is causing the square threads to tighten together and solidify the receiver/barrel joint. It would have no sealing work to do, no radial loads and would essentially become a washer. Remember this is a rifle where all the pressure of firing takes place inside the chamber (Rolling Block) although the extractor in the receiver does hold the case in place so there is compression against the square threads which is why the take up issue. I'll report back after trying the fix and be sure to let everyone know how this works and I think the naysayers will be surprised.

[oldred]

create a new shoulder to tighten the barrel against.

It would have no radial loads and would essentially become a washer


I'll report back after trying the fix and be sure to let everyone know how this works and I think the naysayers will be surprised.

I seriously doubt anyone is going to be surprised because the thing likely will stay together, at least for a while, but this is a "band-aid" approach at best and has no place in a serious trade such as gunsmithing! No loads on the JB weld? Think about that, the "repair" is just about smack in the middle of the rifle and WILL be subjected to heavy bending/compression loads so it is far from just filling up the gaps! You stated it will,

[shim washer or J-B would both do the same thing, create a new shoulder to tighten the barrel against]


yes but a JB shoulder that's waaaay softer than the steel parts that's supposed to support this load! Sure it will hold for a while, but for how long?

[Mooseman]

The problem is JB weld will weaken with barrel heat and under recoil it will fracture and break apart. There is NO substitute for safety where it comes to a controlled explosion near your face and possibly next to innocent bystanders. A Crush washer is Metal to metal and one is easily cut from .001 -.002 shim stock with a hole punch set and a piece of aluminum or flat hardwood block and a pair of sharp scissors.
Please do it right.
I still suggest if you cant do a washer then dimple the barrel shoulder face with 6 center punch strikes evenly around the circle...It will raise the metal so you can torque the barrel properly.

[oldred]

I still suggest if you cant do a washer then dimple the barrel shoulder face with 6 center punch strikes evenly around the circle...It will raise the metal so you can torque the barrel properly.



You know, looking at it like that it appears that doing it properly as suggested here is simpler and easier than the questionable approach. I think there are a couple of serious problems with the JB/Epoxy repair, one is failure to fully appreciate the loads this "repair" will be subjected to and also to grossly over-estimate the compression strength of this simple epoxy compound. The manufacturers have done an excellent job of selling this stuff and the overly sold claims of it being suitable to be machined, drilled and threaded have lots of folks thinking it is some kind of super repair when it is nothing more than epoxy and metal powder. Sure they are telling the truth, it certainly can be machined, drilled and threaded BUT so can most plastics and even wood!!!

[Multigunner]

I have fixed that problem by peening the barrel at the contact shoulder. Peen the entire circumferance of the barrel shoulder acts like a compression washer for a crush fit. Turn it up to the original index marks if that is where the correct headspace is. I have done it this way and it worked for me. If done carefully the peening is almost not noticable. Its has happened a couple time with guns purchased on internet auctions. By the time I got them in Alaska the inspection window was closed so they were mine. That is how I fixed them. One is a 6mm/06 that easily does sub moa so I guess I didnt hurt it.

I mentioned this procedure as a way to restore the shoulder of a Lee Enfield take off barrel that over clocked. When I mentioned it on an Enfield forum a few supposed gurus went off as if it was a bad idea, yet a few months later a recognized authority on the Enfields, a former MOD armorer mentioned doing the exact same thing while in service to a No.4 (T) no less.
They more commonly turn the shoulder and add a measured breeching washer, but when a lathe is not available and the difference is small the other method saves a lot of time and is just as permanent.

If the torque shoulder is crushed it can be bumped back into shape with judicious tapping with a machinist hammer. I believe an even better job can be done , on a round barrel, by rolling between thick steel plates, if enough weight can be applied.
Barrel steels are normally tough but fairly soft, and deform in a predictable manner.
I once accidentally made a concentric raised ridge in the bore of a cutdown barrel when I used a common plumbers tube cutter to mark the outside for a step when filing down the muzzle to fit a banded front sight base. Barrel steel upsets fairly easily. Its not as hard as action body steels.

[Haggway]

If your going to fix this. Fix it right and fix it the first time. I am with mooseman and the others.

[MtGun44]

Raising a few light bumps around some prick punch points on the shoulder would be the first thing I
would try. Get it good, then some red locktight and leave it for a while.

Bill

[M-Tecs]

One preferred method for this type of repair would be to use the proper thickness precision steel shim stock. In .001” or .002” it’s easy to cut with a good Scissors.

Another preferred method would be
peening the barrel at the contact shoulder. Peen the entire circumference of the barrel shoulder acts like a compression washer for a crush fit.. This method is an authorized arsenal repair for M-1 and M-14’s with the timed barrels. Possibility others but I have only seen it in M-1 and M-14 Tech Orders. At the depot they use rollers in place of peening but it can be done with peening. I believe the rollers were set at 15 degrees. You can move enough material back into the shoulder to easily achieve the minimum 80 or 85 foot pound of torque called for in the T.O.


I think you mean Stippling where you raise the surface with center punch dots so it works like a crush washer when tightened ? A much better way than hammering the outer edge of a barrel... No stippling is not the same and it is a poor substitute for this application. You are not raising enough material and material that is raised has to withstand both the compression forces and the side loading as the barrel is turning into proper index.


Peening (yes more correctly stippling), like knurling, is of course a way to raise metal and take up a few thousandths of clearance to restore a worn fit. Peening is peening and stippling is stippling. They are not the same nor is knurling. I won’t state that stippling won’t work but it will never give you 80 or 100 foot-pounds like a proper rolling or peening will.

Some good discussion below.

http://m14forum.com/m14/115175-my-barrel-came-loose-2.html -----some pics of an amateur peening job on post 18. ------From post 24 "BTW. the REAL Springfield Arsenal occasionally had these kinds of problems with barrels on M1 Garand production in WWII. They came up with a hardened wheel in a fixture that was placed in the tool post of a lathe and the shoulder was rolled back by using it. When you see one of these barrels, you will see a shallow round bottom ring, going around the barrel, a little bit ahead of the receiver.

I have not seen a huge number of them, but I have seen enough and they WERE "Arsenal Done" at the time the barrel was installed. I saw one that the barrel had so many rounds fired through it, it looked like a sewer pipe, BUT the barrel was still tight on the receiver."

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=79840

http://m14forum.com/gunsmithing/121619-shim-barrel-2.html

http://m14forum.com/gunsmithing/118766-barrel-timing.html

[Mooseman]

M-tecs,
I beg to differ with you. I can stipple with a center punch and raise the metal as much as .005 when done properly and torque will be 80 to 100 Ft. pounds. I know this because I have done it on several occasions with Military rifles like FN/FAL's to tighten the barrel without over Indexing.
I refuse to Hammer peen the edge of a barrel Because it will show. The Roller press method would be ok.
I can also tig dots of metal too to raise the surface .
Rich

[M-Tecs]

If it’s going to show I use a steel shim. I stock .0005, .001, .0015, .002, .0025, .003, .004, .005 and .010 steel shim stock. The .003 and under is easy to cut.

[Reg]

One of the things one tends to learn from life providing they live long enough.
It seems there are always those who never admit they might be wrong until someone gets hurt.
30,000 to 40,000 pounds of pressure right in front of your nose is not to be trifled with.
Many years ago while pondering why the sun came up every morning I made a small air compressor from a old , well used and rusted out water tank and a compressor from a old refrigerator. In a hurry to get things done and checking for leaks, I decided to pull the drain plug with about 5 pounds pressure still in the tank thinking that 5 pounds still remaining would do no harm. The resulting small blast of air in that tank blew rust scales deep into the skin of my hand, some that were still being picked out after 6 months. The pain hurt like heck.
Now 5 pounds made a believer out of me for the rest of my life. Later, while attending a school that taught gunsmithing, we were learning the art of fitting barrels I remembered what 5 pounds of air pressure could do and I learned to fit barrels tight and correct. When something didn't quite turn out correct, we were taught to go back and do what ever it took to make it correct. If it couldn't be right in the first place, we were taught no not do it at all. Doctors are taught that the first part of their creed is " Do no harm".
Yes, what holds today may not hold tomorrow , especially when it isn't done right in the first place.
I will say no more.

:-?

[John Taylor]

I fit barrels almost every day and I would never use JB weld to hold a barrel. I have used blue loctite on old barrels that did not draw up as tight as I like but an old gunsmith showed me a trick on originals that seems to work good when the barrel can't be set back. He would take fine copper wire and make a couple wrap around the barrel at the shoulder and then tighten it. The copper will squish and make for a tight fit. Much easier than making shims and has the same effect.
Because there are many different thread pitches you can't say so many degrees for tightening a barrel. Some barrel will turn 1/8 of a turn from first contact to tight and some won't. I usually torque a barrel up with 50 pounds or more and then machine the octagon and other cuts. When fitting a new barrel I might tighten and loosen several times to ensure the threads are seated and have good contact. I have had many guns come in that someone has fitted a barrel little more than hand tight and after some use the barrel is loose.
I have also peened barrels to move the shoulder back and this can make a loose barrel torque up just fine.