Question on Ishapore 2A1

[Jim]

I have a sported Ishapore 2A1 in 7.62X51. Like all Enfields, it has a cocking knob on the bolt. Is the bolt designed such that a loaded round can safely be carried in the chamber under an uncocked bolt?

I was under the impression that, when the bolt is uncocked, the firing pin extends beyond the face of the bolt. If that is correct, I would assume the cocking knob being struck would set off the round.

I would like to be able to carry a live round in the pipe on an uncocked bolt IF it is safe to do so. If it's not designed for that to be safely done, I'm not even gonna think about it. Straighten me out on this.

[KCSO]

Try it it should have a 1/2 cock detent but DONT put it down all the way.

[Jim]

I just took the bolt out of my Ishapore and checked it out. When the bolt is uncocked and closed, the pin is exposed. It does NOT float.

That tells me that, if I were to uncock the rifle over a live round, the pin would be against the primer under the pressure of the pin spring. That also tells me that, if I were accidentally lose grip on the cocking knob while setting to half cock, the round could be set off.

Ya' know, if I had done this before posting, I wouldn't have wasted anybody's time here. But thanks for responding, KC!

[Dutchman]

I have a sported Ishapore 2A1 in 7.62X51. Like all Enfields, it has a cocking knob on the bolt. Is the bolt designed such that a loaded round can safely be carried in the chamber under an uncocked bolt?

I was under the impression that, when the bolt is uncocked, the firing pin extends beyond the face of the bolt. If that is correct, I would assume the cocking knob being struck would set off the round.

I would like to be able to carry a live round in the pipe on an uncocked bolt IF it is safe to do so. If it's not designed for that to be safely done, I'm not even gonna think about it. Straighten me out on this.

Extremely unsafe practice. To do this would leave the firing pin resting on a live primer. Setting the rifle down HARD on the buttstock could well FIRE the weapon. In some extreme cases of stupidity some people have been known to LEAN OVER THE MUZZLE of a rifle and under such a circumstance they would be DEAD.

The correct method is to carry it cocked & locked.

Dutch

[454PB]

A friend of mine shot himself in the shoulder doing this. He pulled the trigger and closed the bolt on a chambered round, and had the rifle next to him on the passenger side of a pickup, muzzle against his right shoulder. The truck hit a big bump and the rifle fired.

When he told me the story, I was speechless, and I asked him how he ever thought that was a safe way to carry a rifle. He told me he was taught to do it this way and had gotten away with it for many years. The rifle was a 30/06, and he was very lucky to survive. He had a very impressive entrance/exit scar.

[Jim]

Well, those two responses lock it up for me. I was pretty much convinced by my own lookin' before, but now it's in stone.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Hey, Dutch, on second thought, what was the purpose of the half cock position?

[williamwaco]

Well.

I never owned anything but a .22 with a cocking knob and it has been gone for 60 years.
I would expect to be unsafe.

I also don't trust safety's, so I carry mine with the muzzle down - at the ground - and the bolt forward but with the bolt handle up.
If I drop it, I might eject a cartridge on the ground, but it is not going to fire. I learned this method as a kid from some WW1 Veterans. I don't know if they were taught that way or just picked it up on their own.

Seems like a safe method to me. - Also in the truck with the muzzle at the tranny, not at my shoulder.

[Jim]

Currently, I only have two rifles I carried loaded. One is my H&R .223 which has a hammer with a transfer bar. The other is my Cricket which has a pull cock knob and a trigger block. These two rifles I carry at night when I'm 'coon huntin'. All my other rifles get loaded, but not chambered. I only chamber when I'm ready to fire. The exception to that would be I chamber when situated for still hunting, but the safety goes on prior to chambering.

Decades ago, when I was a teenager, I was squirrel huntin' one day with the barrel of my .22 on my boot. I had the safety off and, not thinkin', pulled the trigger. I literally shot myself in the foot. Hard way to learn, but lesson well learned.

[williamwaco]

Currently, I only have two rifles I carried loaded. One is my H&R .223 which has a hammer with a transfer bar. The other is my Cricket which has a pull cock knob and a trigger block. These two rifles I carry at night when I'm 'coon huntin'. All my other rifles get loaded, but not chambered. I only chamber when I'm ready to fire. The exception to that would be I chamber when situated for still hunting, but the safety goes on prior to chambering.




Decades ago, when I was a teenager, I was squirrel huntin' one day with the barrel of my .22 on my boot. I had the safety off and, not thinkin', pulled the trigger. I literally shot myself in the foot. Hard way to learn, but lesson well learned.


This sounds like a good plan to me.

[I'll Make Mine]

As with the Lee-Enfield, my Mosin has a cocking knob and can be "decocked" by pulling the trigger as the bolt is closed. And as with the Lee-Enfield, doing this with a round in the chamber will cause the protruding firing pin to rest on the primer. When I'm actively hunting, I use the Mosin's safety -- pull the cocking knob back and rotate counterclockwise about 45º, then let it down; doing this locks both bolt and trigger, and physically blocks the entire firing pin and cocking knob unit from moving foward (a firing pin break between cocking knob and spring collar could fire the rifle in this condition, but this is extremely unlikely), but I can silently release the safety in a couple seconds when I'm ready to fire.

That said, I wouldn't consider carrying a loaded rifle in my vehicle -- where I live, that's against the law, as far as I know, and there's little utility in it in my experience in any case; if I see a deer while driving, my main concern is not to run it down and damage my car (I've never seen one I could have taken a shot at in North Carolina -- and it's illegal to shoot from a road in any case).

[Multigunner]

what was the purpose of the half cock position?

I can answer that question, we just finished discussing this on another board.
The half cock is there to catch the cocking piece should the sear not engage properly allowing what would otherwise be an AD. The Halfcock of the 1911 serves the same purpose.
Some early Lee Metfords had the same side mounted safety as the later SMLE, but for some reason they temporarily dropped that safety catch from the design and relied on the half cock notch as a safety. This didn't last long, probably due to accidents.
During WW1 regulations for Musketry stated that if a rifle did not have a safety catch the rifle was to be carried at the Slope position whenever moving with a round in the chamber. Apparently they had no faith at all in use of the half cock as a safety feature.

The button or grooves in the cocking piece are for retracting the firing pin in case of a misfire to have another go, or to retract the cocking piece to free it from the sear should it fall into the half cock condition.

PS
The Brits called it "Half Bent".

[Jim]

Thank you, Multigunner. Very good write-up, I might add.