Recreating the D166

[nitrohuck]

Hey all!

Sent over this way from Gunboards to ask ya a question regarding the famed D166 round....

I am shooting a recently purchased m39, absolutely love it and am going to take the opportunity with this rifle to push accuracy to its utmost potential (as best as a noob such as myself can)

I was wondering who here has experience with shooting cast out of an m39?

- What mold did you use? Looking at the Lee C312-185-1R 303 currently, and thinking of resizing to .311 (m39 bore is .310 and mine is brand new so I will assume for now it is .310 but will slug before proceeding)

- What FPS did you push your rounds up to?

Hoping to start slowly acquiring the necessary components over the next month to two months, very excited to start casting for this rifle, she certainly deserves it and is an excellent shooter, this milsurp HB ain't cuttin it anymore, not to mention I don't enjoy sending corrosive rounds down such a nicely preserved 70year old bore.

Thanks a ton in advance! Excited to start frequenting these boards more as I learn about casting me some bullets! Ehrmm... sorry, BOOLITS! :P

~Nitro

[tomme boy]

First thing to do is slug your bore. Make sure to use a piece of dead soft lead.

Read this. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158805-Just-a-few-tips-for-new-rifle-casters

Then read all of the stickies throughout the forum. Reading and understanding the limitations of lead will help with your choice of molds and lubes. In this game, what works for me will probably not work for you.

Ask away as there are a very knowledgeable group here. More so than myself.

I had a 44 VKT that was unissued. My bore was 0.3105" x 0.301". So slugging is a must.

[Dutch4122]

Hello Nitrohuck, and welcome to the forum.

The project you are starting is one that I have been working on for the last year. I can tell you now that what you are trying to do is no small feat; and some will tell you that it is not possible. However, I am getting close to a respectable high velocity round out of my own pristine M39 with reasonable iron sight battle rifle accuracy.

I have never worked with the Lee 185 grn boolit, so I can not tell you with any certainty if it will work with your rifle at high velocity. I have been using the Accurate Molds 31-180A cast of a special 4 part alloy that consists of clip-on wheelweights, pure lead, and bearing babbit that contains tin and copper. This alloy was developed by member "badgeredd" here at Cast Boolits and is demonstrating some excellent results with high velocity rifle loads during our early testing.

These alloys, when water dropped from the mold, are producing tough but malleable boolits that will withstand higher pressures than slugs cast out of straight wheelweights or blends like 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead when water dropped.

My best loads yet have been worked up with IMR-4350 in the 27 inch barrel of the M-39; which produced over 2,600 fps. over the chronograph and repeatable 4 inch groups at 100 yards. Like I said, I'm getting close, but not quite there yet. I think more refinement in my loading proceedures and possibly a slightly faster burning powder may give some improvement. I am also going to be experimenting with different sizing diameters to see if that will bring any better results on paper.

My advice is that if you are just getting started with Cast Boolits then you should start with the lighter loads and your Lee 185 grn boolit cast out of 50% clip on wheelweight and 50% pure lead, air cooled. I would suggest 13 grains of Unique and a rear sight setting of 500 meters for a 1,500-1,600 fps load that will surprise you with its accuracy. If you want to go faster and duplicate the D166 load it will be possible; but require more work. You'll be buying/mixing more expensive alloys, buying molds that cast better fitting boolit designs, and using higher velocity lubes.

Let me know by PM if I can be of any more help. :D

[Multigunner]

This the D166 bullet?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/721823/lapua-bullets-762x54mm-rimmed-russian-762x53mm-rimmed-311-diameter-200-grain-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-box-of-100
Looks like a heavier version of the .303 MkVIII bullet with rebated boat tail.
There are a few similar bullets on the market these days.

A similar rebated boat tail was used with a magnum cased .303 for long range target shooting, but the cartridge was loaded with a very hot propellents so the combination wasn't a complete sucess.

PS
I suspect that any difficulty in getting the D166 bullet to shoot well would be due to a poor bullet to throat and/or bore fit that allows blowby.

[Dutch4122]

I think the OP was refering to the Finnish D166 185 grain surplus load that they originally developed for machine guns during or prior to WWII. It was a 200 grn spitzer fired at approximately 2,300 fps. They eventually standardized the round for not only machine guns; but they also used it in their Mosins as it was found to perform better at longer ranges than the earlier 150 grain jacketed loads. The M-39's were throated for this round and are marked with a "D" on the barrel above the year date stamp.

Unless I read post #1 wrong the OP wants to duplicate the performance of this round with a cast boolit load.

[tomme boy]

The Lapua is the same bullet. Always was a 200 gr rebated boat tail.

[Dutch4122]

The Lapua is the same bullet. Always was a 200 gr rebated boat tail.


http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo027.htm

If this is the bullet you are refering to in the above link; the weight from a pulled round of 1973 Lapua match ammo loaded with the rebated boat tail bullet is 185.4 grains. I would be very interested to confirm the weight of an actual WWII surplus D166 bullet pulled from a surplus cartridge.

[Dutch4122]

This is getting more interesting by the minute. After further research I have found plenty of information stating that while the Finns did have a 185 grain bullet in the lineup at some point; the D166 was in fact a 200 grain bullet @ just under 2,300 fps.

It seems that the Russian "D" cartridge used a 182 grain bullet. Must be that is where I got it from.

My apologies for dragging the thread off course.

[nitrohuck]

This is getting more interesting by the minute. After further research I have found plenty of information stating that while the Finns did have a 185 grain bullet in the lineup at some point; the D166 was in fact a 200 grain bullet @ just under 2,300 fps.

It seems that the Russian "D" cartridge used a 182 grain bullet. Must be that is where I got it from.

My apologies for dragging the thread off course.

Yep this is what I understand the D166 round to be, a 200gr round that traveled at ~2,250FPS

From what I understand (which is very little) I will be hard pressed to find a .311 diameter 200gr mold, but would like to get as close as I can to achieving the same performance, although the FPS will have to be lower from my yet again minimal understanding.

I never intended to mold a bullet that was of the exact same shape (rebated boat tail, etc.) but rather just wanted to get a heavier round that is .311, and then figure out from there what FPS I can get it up to with reliable accuracy...

And no worries, ya aren't draggin it off course that's for sure, you guys are helping considerably... I read that long stickied post for newbies getting into casting, the whole throat/neck measuring part gets me a little intimidated but hopefully I'll get it all sorted out accurately enough.

Ultimately I would be shooting this round on targets at 100-300yrds, hoping to be able to plink a 500yrd plate with it if possible but I guess I have a lot to learn about FPS and lead projectiles

[tomme boy]

Do a impact slug or cast some cerro cast of your chamber and have a talk with Tom @ Accurate molds. I just designed a mold for my 91-30 Sniper.

It is the 31-215B. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-215B-D.png

This was done for MY chamber and throat. I set it up to have the base of the boolit at the bottom of the neck and to not have to jump to get to the rifling. I have not ordered the mold yet so I can not say how it works. I will be ordering in the next few weeks.

Here is another one I designed for a very worn M39 Sako. I was able to run this one up to 2200fps shooting 1.25" @ 100 yds. I do not have that gun anymore as I traded it for the sniper. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-205B-D.png

He has a basic fit 7.62x54r design. it is this one. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-200R-D.png

I would do a casting of your chamber.

[Frank46]

Try the lyman #314299 which is what I shoot out of my 1935 M27. I use 20.0 grains 4759, hansen (yugo) cases, win lrp, sized to .3135 and estimated velocity is 1600 fps. Javelina lube. Frank

[Buckshot]

............I do believe that the heavy for caliber cast boolits are easier to shoot faster with comparable accuracy then the lighter ones. A 200 gr slug for the M-N while not really heavy for the caliber is much heavier then normally encountered.

http://www.fototime.com/95526EC254D5D0C/standard.jpg

The slug in the middle is one I honcho's a Group Buy on several years ago. It was for use in the 8x57 and it's nominal weight was supposed to be 240grs. In most alloys it ran 236~238grs. Not long after the moulds were delivered the idea of 2300 fps popped into my head, for no particular reason.

http://www.fototime.com/7505257ECA355E4/standard.jpg

I decided to use this M38/46 Turkish Mauser for the deed. Probably should have used a M38 with it's 29" bbl instead of this one with it's 24" tube. I used surplus WC852 ball and started out with shotshell buffer over the powder until I reached the point where it wasn't needed, and not too long after that I did achieve an average velocity of just over 2300 fps. Truthfully I was already having more fun then I liked as I reached 2000 fps. Final accuracy wasn't too bad either. I did manage to put a slight crack in the stock at the wrist behind the action :-)

http://www.fototime.com/CDBFBF007F1D86B/standard.jpg

I worked up a load for the above Turkish M88/35 with that slug that was superbly accurate. I used some old TCCI 5020 ball powder which gave 1950 fps. That old Turk re-work has an astonishing trigger and a very fine bore. One of the best shooting mil-surps I have. It weighs a ton but it's a shooter and just loves that heavy slug. If you do decide to go for a cutom boolit design you'll need to do a Cerrosafe cast of about 1/2" of the barrel, back through the leade, throat and the chamber neck just back past the shoulder.

..............Buckshot

[nitrohuck]

Just looked up Cerrosafe, $24 for just a 1/2lb holy canole... But looks like this is just about my only option for measuring throat diameter and the neck eh? Anyone know of something cheaper?

I can slug the bore no problem once I get into the local fishing store and pick up some egg weights, just gotta get around to doing it,

So if there are Cerrosafe substitutes I'd love to hear, and if anyone has extra lying around they'd be willing to send to me I'd be more than happy to pay shipping both ways (since it's reusable over and over I would happily just mail it back)

If I am going to go in on a mold I would hope it would be a mold that would last me a lifetime, would it make sense for me to buy a mold that drops say .314 bullets and that way I can resize them to .311 (assuming this is my m39 bore size, which it should be, who knows) and then later down the line if I cast for my 91/30's I will be hopefully able to use the same mold... Does this sound right? Would hate to buy two molds for two rifles when one would easily do the job and do it well.

Really getting excited about all this new information and stuff I am going to learn... to the mechanically inclined, this gun world can be a slippery slope :P

EDIT: After looking around on this site for awhile I noticed the Lyman 314299 being mentioned a lot... This definitely sounds like an enticing mold to start out with, as it drops a .311-.312 bullet, lots of reports of m39's enjoying this round,

[nitrohuck]

So i figured i would start with WW alloy to begin with, i am going to be Picking up 20lbs of zinc free WW alloy ingots that are .5% tin - 2% Antimony - 97.5% Lead

Sound decent enough to start with? Figuring I would water quench the Mosin rounds and just air cool the Mak9mm rounds I also plan to cast

[Ed in North Texas]

RE: Cerrosafe - to figure the cost, you need to know that it is usable over and over again. You just re-melt and pour for each new chamber cast. So the ultimate cost isn't all that bad - as long as you wind up with more than one firearm - not a problem for most every one on the forum.

Ed

[tomme boy]

20 lbs is a start. Start hitting up tire dealers for ww's. The chain stores are going to be hard to get them from unless you know someone. There is always someone on this board that is selling lead, so watch the for sale section.

[Buckshot]

..............See Roto Metals up top in the banner section for alloy if you're not having any luck finding scrap. Go to plumbers in your area and let them know you're on the lookout for lead, especially if there are older homes in your area. You can also check with roofers as lead flashing used to be common.

.............Buckshot

[nitrohuck]

I have checked out rotometals, not a bad place to start, free shipping on $100 orders certainly helps, but most products are almost $3/lb which I can somewhat undercut on ebay where WW ingots can be found for give or take $1.30/lb... I looked through the WTS/WTB section here, saw some pretty good deals from members as well, will most likely be buying from members hear in the future as some of the alloys were going for roughly $1/lb...

From what I can tell, given that some of you are 50+ years into this hobby, I will probably have many years ahead of me to figure out WW and cheap local alloy schemes, but for now I would rather just buy stuff that I know is good from the start, costs a bit more but will just allow me to get my feet wet as I begin the journey...

Does anyone happen to have 311299 - 314299 - 316299 bullets on had they would like to sell? I would be happy to buy samples of each, gas checked since I don't have a crimp yet, but would love to take some of the bullets for a test run before I drop the $100 on a mold, which will be quite soon

Thanks a ton guys, very excited to be part of the board here and get into this craft
~Nitro

[tomme boy]

Go to the for sale section and look to the top part. Look for the Bullet exchange part. Put an add in there. Don't know if you will be able to thou, as we need a certain post count to post in the for sale part. Not sure if it is like that in the bullet section or not.

I would be buying here for your lead as most here know what they are doing with the lead. On Ebay it could be anything.

I see your other post on the GB forum. Listen to what everyone is telling you. The more you can listen and understand this hobbie, the more you will like it. Most people that hate cast boolits, don't know what they are doing. You can not use jacketed data for lead. That is were they get in trouble. Keep asking questions. Every little thing makes a huge difference in cast. There is no short cut here.

[wmitty]

You might want to consider a lighter boolet if the velocity you mentioned is your goal. I have had an easier time of finding a fast (relatively) and accurate load with the 311466 after working with the 31141 and RCBS 30-180 SP. This was in the '06, though. Might need to oven heat treat them after adding gas checks / sizing and before lubing. I am having excellent results with the 314407 modified which is weighing right at 180 grains ( this is a group buy mould)

[milprileb]

You want a D166 clone load: not gonna happen with cast bullets.

Just buy the Lapua bullets if you want to chase a clone load.

Now: you want to have accuracy with cast bullets out to 300 yds: not a problem , especially if htey are
gas checked and right fit to your bore.

But D166 clone load with cast bullets? That is like saying you want a Corvette Stingray dual wheel crew cab.

[waksupi]

Forget that bullet design. This aspect of the shooting hobby isn't reloading, it is hand loading. Forget whatever you know about loading jacketed bullets, this is entirely different, with a few basic similarities. Stick around and read a lot, you will be able to achieve a lot of what you are looking for, just maybe not in the manner in which you expect.

[KCSO]

To check dimensions is various parts of the bore of a rifle you need a few lengths of brass rod as close to bore diameter as you can get. Put a long rod through the breech and drop a buckshoot in the muzzle. Use the short rod to upset the shot in the barrel by tapping the rod with a brass hammer. Turn the outfit around to do the breech end or the throat. I use a vise to hold the gun and a helper to hold the rods doesn't hurt. If you balk at the cost of bismuth for casting bum a couple duck loads from a duck hunting buddy.