357 bullet and load for Black Bear country

[rhouser]

My 60 y/o younger brother has moved into a house where the Black Bear population is significant enough to see them from his porch on occasion. He called me (older brother) for a load for his S&W 357 only as a bear deterrant (defense) when he and family are out in the woods and find a blackie that is overly curious and won't back down. We both recognize that his 45-70 is a better choice if he were hunting etc, but, his 357 goes with him everywhere and it should have sufficient penetration with a wide meplate hard cast to deter a black bear that is not in actual manic attack mode (between mom and cub) and even then, would be better than nothing.

I looked at the beartooth offerings and was thinking that there ought to be a bigger meplate avaliable (like an lbt or something) for a 357. Again, penetration and toughness are my objective.

Any advice would be appreciated although discussions on why a .41 or a .44 or a Casul would be better will not accomplish much, since he carries what he carries. Anybody ever had to dispatch a black bear with a 357?

Thanks in advance.... rc

[Love Life]

I would ask DK17HMR. He was talking about a load using the lyman 200 gr RN IIRC that had some serious velocity out of a 4 inch barrel.

What revolver is it going to be shot in?

[rexherring]

I'd be shooting something like this from Double Tap with a wide meplat and 1200fps Buffalo Bore also has a 180 gr at 1300 fps.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/616233/doubletap-ammunition-357-magnum-200-grain-wide-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

[MT Gianni]

What is his 357?There is a lot of difference IMO, as to carrying a 5 shot 2" J frame and a Blackhawk or GP100. I bump a fp on a 358430 but have yet to try it on game.

[Larry Gibson]

I'd be shooting something like this from Double Tap with a wide meplat and 1200fps Buffalo Bore also has a 180 gr at 1300 fps.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/616233/doubletap-ammunition-357-magnum-200-grain-wide-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

Same suggestion for factory ammo.

For handloads using cast I would suggest a 158 - 170 gr SWC or WFN over a max dose of H110 or 296. For jacketed I would suggest the 158 gr XPT over a max dose of H110 or 296.

Larry Gibson

[rhouser]

He carries a S&W model 66 with a 4 inch barrel. thanks rc

[RetAFSF]

Make it a heavy bullet with max vel. Small brown bear will take several hits from a .357mag and keep moving. Big handgun with a heavy bullet and max powder for bear....that is if you have to shoot one. Course if a black bear is charging you, he's committed, fight to the death.

[subsonic]

.357 is not really a bear round. I'd go with something like a 160-180gr with a large meplat and keep the pressure a little less than max in that little 66.

358429 over 13gr of 2400 is a load I know that shoots decent and is less than full tilt.

Try a 180gr WFNGC by Cast Performance over about 12gr of H110 too.

[cbrick]

Think I would start with that Double Tap ammo rexherring mentioned as a temporary step. Then if bears are a serious concern I would start saving my pennies for something just a tad larger with 44 Mag as a bare (pun intended) minimum.

Rick

[saz]

I have to say stick with the heaviest boolit you can find, say 180-200grs and there is no need to try and push it past 1100fps. Black bears are not that hard to kill. If he is using it for a defense piece to stop a charge for instance, he will be looking for a central nervous system shot- either in the face or down through the spine and it will more than likely be up close. So the more velocity you look for, more recoil, slower follow up shots etc.... JHMO.

[williamwaco]

'Tis a lesson you should heed:
Try, try, try again.
If at first you don't succeed,
Try, try, try again.


Then GET A BIGGER HAMMER!


If you are stuck with the .357, get the biggest bullet at the highest velocity you can find.

[1bluehorse]

interesting that this would come up. Was just re-reading an article in Handloader No. 223, June 03' about handguns and bears by Phil Shoemaker who's an Alaskan guide. As of this writing he'd only had to shoot and kill one big brown bear and he did it with a S&W model 65 in 357 mag. loaded with factory Norma 180gr. FMJ bullets..he eventually gave this gun to his daughter (who is also a fishing guide) when he moved up to a 44 mtn gun. His account of the shooting said the bullet entered the top of the bears neck behind the skull, broke it's neck and came to a stop in it's throat. So if it worked on a brown bear it should be more than enough for a blackie..

[MtGun44]

Keith 358429 loaded up near the top, like 16+ gr of H110 should be just fine.

You have a power drill, penetration and location of the holes (so you want straight
penetration, which the Keith designs are well documented to provide) are what counts.
You don't have much energy, so you have to depend on penetration depth and location
hit vital parts. Make sure you don't cast with Linotype, it is brittle and can shatter on
bones. This usually casts at about 173-175 gr, pretty near perfect for what he
needs.

Bill

[Larry in MT]

My 60 y/o younger brother has moved into a house where the Black Bear population is significant enough to see them from his porch on occasion. He called me (older brother) for a load for his S&W 357 only as a bear deterrant (defense) when he and family are out in the woods and find a blackie that is overly curious and won't back down. We both recognize that his 45-70 is a better choice if he were hunting etc, but, his 357 goes with him everywhere and it should have sufficient penetration with a wide meplate hard cast to deter a black bear that is not in actual manic attack mode (between mom and cub) and even then, would be better than nothing.

I looked at the beartooth offerings and was thinking that there ought to be a bigger meplate avaliable (like an lbt or something) for a 357. Again, penetration and toughness are my objective.

Any advice would be appreciated although discussions on why a .41 or a .44 or a Casul would be better will not accomplish much, since he carries what he carries. Anybody ever had to dispatch a black bear with a 357?

Thanks in advance.... rc

You CAN get too much meplat. You might ask Marshall but I'd look long and hard at that 165 grain Flat Nose. You'll want all the velocity possible and that looks like a good choice.

In NE Oregon many years ago in a Deer hunting camp in the middle of a rainy night, I faced down a (maybe) 200 pound Black Bear that was tearing up our cook tent. I had this 66-2 with 158 grain Federal JSPs. I traded my 66 for my 270 as soon as I could (actually never killed the Bear) but I surely think the 66 would have been enough, at least in that particular case.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/fc4f9b2f-1-1.jpg

[torpedoman]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
read this article it is most informative on the round .

[44man]

It still comes down to where you hit. All of you sound so calm with a charge that you place a boolit exact. I don't buy that junk, you are scared out of your mind. It is keyboard shooting.
A cop expends 17 rounds on a BG for one hit. But you can take out a charging bear with one shot from a .357. So many of you would die.
I sit here and know I am a good shot but think about a charge from a bear even when I have a big bore gun. Time is seconds and not a single one of you is a quick draw artist and neither am I. Even a rifle is hard to get into play. Yet some can whip out a little revolver and get a brain hit in thousandths of a second. The shots you read about that worked were pure luck.
You need your gun in hand and pointing in the direction you are going. The gun on your hip means you need to be Bob Munden.

[saz]

It does come down to where you hit, and that is why you train. I am no Bob Munden at all, but I can pull my sixgun fast enough. I have been charged- twice. They were both bluff charges thank god- one due to me getting too close to her cubs, and the other was becasue he thought my game bags full of moose were his. Was I scared? Hell yes. I did what I trained for- front sight on his/her nose and made sure it is a full on charge. The reason I don't load really hot in my 44 mag is because if I have a chance at a follow up shot I will take it.
I am no expert by any means, but I have spent a little time in the bush and I have talked to a bunch of guides that spend 6 months of the year in bear country. They all agree- try for the chest/face, but just put holes in them.

[x101airborne]

If a 357 is what I had, that is what I would carry. I would not feel undergunned with a "puny" 357. I would feel better than carrying a 25 auto.
I have shot a few larger (250-300) poundish hogs with the Lee 158 gr FP and it has done well. No, I wasn't charged and the shots were carefully aimed, but I can fire my 66-6 like lightning and hit very well with it. With a 158 grainer or larger, your brother's 66 would be fine with a max load. I would have much confidence with it against black bear.
Grizzley's, well , not so much. But that is a different question, isn't it?

[David LaPell]

I like the #358429 with 12.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special +P case (they won't seat in the crimp groove and fit in the cylinder of my 27-2) and it gives me more than I need. I can get a fast second shot if necessary and it is pretty accurate.

[Gibson]

It still comes down to where you hit. All of you sound so calm with a charge that you place a boolit exact. I don't buy that junk, you are scared out of your mind. It is keyboard shooting.
A cop expends 17 rounds on a BG for one hit. But you can take out a charging bear with one shot from a .357. So many of you would die.
I sit here and know I am a good shot but think about a charge from a bear even when I have a big bore gun. Time is seconds and not a single one of you is a quick draw artist and neither am I. Even a rifle is hard to get into play. Yet some can whip out a little revolver and get a brain hit in thousandths of a second. The shots you read about that worked were pure luck.
You need your gun in hand and pointing in the direction you are going. The gun on your hip means you need to be Bob Munden.

C'mon 44man! FEAR? With four teenagers and a half Cherokee, half Irish wife, I welcome death. :)

PS got the BFR 500 Mag back today ;)

[9.3X62AL]

Since having a sideiron interlude with a blackie in a berry patch in Summer 2002, I include a rifle as part of the equipment in bear country. A moderate-power rifle like a 30-30 WCF is a far better stopper than any revolver, even the RidicuMags.

[9.3X62AL]

Since having a sideiron interlude with a blackie in a berry patch in Summer 2002, I include a rifle as part of the equipment in bear country. A moderate-power rifle like a 30-30 WCF is a far better stopper than any revolver, even the RidicuMags. 170 grain jacketed flat points (Sierra) atop 32.0 grains of WW-748 will handle Mr. Black Bear's attitude meltdown if required.

A 4" 357 Mag (S&W 686) goes along also, and it is stoked with 180 grain wide-meplat cast gas-checks pushed by 13.0 grains of 2400. This is not a load I would shoot a large number of from any K-frame S&W, but the 13/19/65/66 aren't so weak that a few of these will make them tweak out or shed parts. I'm another fan of the Lyman #358430, a 195 grainer with blunt round nose profile that shoots ACCURATELY in every 38 Special or 357 Magnum I've ever ran them through, from 750-1300 FPS. At lower speeds, they tend to tumble through small game--at 1200+, they go straight through. Cast as a soft point, they would make an excellent deer bullet from the 357s and run 1100 FPS+.

[dragon813gt]

Look at the MP 359-640 mold. It's 170 grains with a nice wide meplat. I load mine over H110 to almost full power. I'm specifically using this for hunting black bear in a carbine next week. Distance will be limited and shot placement will be the driving factor. But I don't feel under gunned with it.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

[Jtarm]

A cop expends 17 rounds on a BG for one hit.

I don't think it's that bad. I recall reading many years ago that the best-trained LE agencies scored 25% hits of the time. I suspect it's improved since then.

Agreed that scoring a brain or upper-spine hit on a charging bear is unlikely, but you don't have to kill a bear with one shot in an all-out charge to save life & limb. Just like against humans, where the majority of self-defense shootings are not fatal and often do not even involve a hit, a near-hit might distract a bear from a charge, and a broken leg or shoulder should pretty much neutralize the threat.
If bear's already on top of you chewing on your, arm, sticking that .357 in his neck or ear and pulling the trigger should save the rest of you.

The late African hunter/author Peter Capstick often hunted lions that had developed a taste for homo-sapiens. Part of his armament was a Browning Hi Power, not to stop a charging lion, but as a weapon of last resort. A point-blank shot to the brain or upper spine from even a 9mm will do in just about any thin-skinned predator.

[fecmech]

If the .357 is what you have to carry I'd second the vote for the 170 gr "Keith" SWC. They penetrate well and IMO that is what I would want in a confrontation with a bear.

[Lucky Joe]

I would have thought the heavier the better in this case. When I first read this post this boolit came to mind. The Lyman 215 gr. GC WC.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/HP-2.jpg
I own the mould below, and it makes an excellent boolit.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/Luckyjoe_01/7N07-8-2013-39-1.jpg

[David LaPell]

Since I have been laid up I have been working on a project involving the .357 Magnum I have been doing a lot of reading on the caliber. One of the things I have gone through is my old edition of Burning Powder by Colonel Douglas Wesson. I have the 1938 edition which has a chapter devoted to the .357 Magnum. Also at the end of the book is the story of The Glacier Priest. I scanned in the page below. I have never loaded for a .357 K-frame as my guns were either Rugers or N-frames so I am not sure if the 358429 bullet would work in that cylinder with .357 brass, but one bullet that I have grown fond of is the #358156. If you cast this bullet hard, say using wheel weights and water dropped I think it would it would be plenty hard enough for a black bear. I have never understood why there is this reputation as the .357 being underpowered. Is the .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum better, yes but just because they are more powerful than the .357 it doesn't mean the .357 isn't enough, with the right loads. One of the things that is different from the early days of the .357 Magnum was moving a lot faster than the factory loads now. The original loads were 1,500 fps plus with a 158-160 grain lead bullet from an 8 3/4 inch barrel (before they had the 8 3/8 inch barrel). Now the current factory 158 grain JSP is 1,250 fps. According to the June 2010 Handloader in an article on the Registered Magnums, Brian Pearce was getting 1,436 fps from a 6 1/2 inch Registered Magnum with a 162 grain #358156 SWC with 14.5 grains of 2400. I would think that load with that type of velocity should be pretty effective on black bears.
I used a lighter load, around 1,250 fps or so from my 3 1/2 Model 27 to dispatch a whitetail I hit with my jeep a year ago. I put a #358156 right through it's neck, taking out the spine, went right through the bone and kept right on going. The deer was dear instantly. While not a bear, it proved very capable of going through bone which is what you want with a bear, penetration.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Smithwalrus.jpg

[Lucky Joe]

Dave I couldn't agree more. I use my .357's from squirrels 74 gr. SWC to deer, usually 175 gr.. When I had a dairy herd occasionally a cow had to be put down. One round from the .357 did it, one time I had to shoot behind the shoulders of a 1200# animal the boolit broke a rib, destroyed the heart and lay under the skin on the other side. I have them bigger but the .358 class is my favorite.

[JHeath]

The only charge I ever stopped was a badger I fired at in long grass with a Gold Cup/230gr fmj from 60 - 70'. He responded by running straight at me. I aimed and fired until the gun was empty, and he thankfully slowed and stopped 12' from me, moments after my last shot. I hit him at least four times, think actually five but given the low angle one hole on his back could have been an exit hole from a front-entering shot.

What I got from it was: 1) It is possible to keep your head and aim deliberately under such circumstances 2) small moving targets are difficult to make fatal hits on; but had it been the size of a bear's head and not a badger's body (assuming I didn't panic) I could have scored multiple hits 3) hardball vs badger makes the game more fair for the badger; as I fired my last round I started worrying about what he could do to me if I couldn't outrun him.

[MtGun44]

"The only charge I ever stopped was a badger I fired at in long grass with a Gold Cup/230gr fmj from 60 - 70'. "

More tales of 'Death in the Long Grass'. :kidding:


Bill