What happened?

[DeanoBeanCounter]

:-? I have a Marlin model 93. I've always loaded J word bullets for it until I tried cast boolets from Laser Cast. This rifle has always been my best shooter. But with these cast boolets I couldn't hit the target of 8" x 11 1/2" at 25 yards. A few did hit. Some went in straight and some went in sideways. The gun is around 100 years old. The boolets are 170 grain RNFP. The powder is 20 and 25 grains Re7. Can someone tell me what happened and what to do about it? This is my favorite gun.:sad:

[45nut]

Sounds like the Laser Cast's are just skipping along inside the barrel without actually engaging the rifling at all, I suppose they are a .308 and what you really need is a .310 or so.
That is why we call for people to slug the barrels of their guns. If the boolit don't fit, you won't hit.......

Jacketed bullets engage the rifling mainly by the friction IMHO, cast must engage the bottoms of the grooves tightly in order to overcome the lack of friction the lead has inherently.
Lead based bearings in engines is my example, lead alloy's called babbitt allow crankshafts to spin freely with a tolerance taken up by the oil acting the same as your cast lubricated boolit down your barrel. No friction means no land/groove engagement = no accuracy.

Slug that barrel and find a matching size boolit.
BTW, its not uncommon to find rifles of that vintage with such issues, but they can be overcome easily once you match things up.

[Boomer Mikey]

Good advise,

Slug the barrel, rifles this old can be anywhere on the oversize side.

Better yet, make a pound slug or a cerrosafe cast of the chamber and select the largest bullet diameter that will fit into the chamber.

I'll bet there is plenty of lead in the barrel ahead of the throat. Use a piece of Chore Boy scrubbing pad wrapped on an old bore brush tightly to remove the lead quickly and safely.

Another point... you must remove all traces of copper in the bore to shoot cast.

Boomer :Fire:

[pumpguy]

Ditto to what 45 Nut says. I like mine SNUG! I routinely shoot .311 in my 1967 336 30-30 with microgroove. I can get sub 1.5" groups at 100 yards every day of the week. Not bad for a gun that "won't shoot cast boolits."

[Four Fingers of Death]

Dang! you plumb wore it out, send it to me, I'll look after the poor ol thang! :D Mick.

[w30wcf]

DeanoBeanCounter,

Do the bullets your using have a gas check? Based on the loads you are using and the wide variation in your shots, I would think that they don't (?). If not, drop the load back to 16 grs. and position the powder in the back of the case.
Things should improve dramatically.

Also, like the other fellows indicated, it could be that your bullets are under the groove diameter.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Bret4207]

Good chance those "factory cast" boolits area lot harder than needed, or to work well too. A hard undersize boolit pushed too fast is certain disaster.

[DeanoBeanCounter]

4fingermick, I'll answer you first. NO! :twisted: There's a bumper sticker that says "The only way they'll get my gun from me is to pry it from my cold dead hand". [smilie=1: Besides, I don't have enough money to take a trip to your area. :kidding:
Well anyway, While 4fingermick recovers from shock.
I measured a few bullets and got .310 to .3105 dia. The box said .310. There's no copper in the barrel that I can detect. During cleaning I could see the rifling all the way down. This is the first time I've ever used lead bullets in this rifle. The bullets are grooved for gas checks.
Now, three questions:
1: Will putting gas checks on help?
2: Will someone direct me to some instructions on how to slug my barrel?
3: Has Mick recovered enough so I can tell him "thanks for the offer anyway"?

Deano

[jh45gun]

Yes Gas checks will help while some folks say you can get by with out them if you do not push them fast I still think gas checks are the way to go if the bullet was designed for it. I will let the others tell you how to slug the bore. I use soft lead sinkers.

[Boomer Mikey]

This covers the subject very well.

Using the Right Bullet for the Right Barrel Diameter
By Mark Trope & R. Ted Jeo

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reloading/slug/pdf/slug.pdf
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/chambercast/pdf/chambercast.pdf

The warning about bullet size is related to jacketed bullet sizes. Cast bullet sizes are typically 0.001" - 0.002" greater than groove diameter.


Boomer :Fire

[G. Blessing]

Another point... you must remove all traces of copper in the bore to shoot cast.

Boomer :Fire:

Don't mean to highjack the fellows thread, but..... :)

Mind elaborating on that? :)

I've heard it several places, and am realy begining to wonder why..... I can shoot mixed, say, 20 rounds of each, a few lead, a few jacketed, alternating while plinking, and loose no acuracy or have any trouble cleaning.....

Have I got a rare fluke or something?
Curios 'tis all.... :confused:

Gary.

[38-55]

Hey G. Blessing,,,
Well,,, YA got a good gun with a smooth bore I'd guess.. I've found that some of my guns will foul like no tomorrow with the slightest hint of copper in the bore and other don't really seem to care one way or the other. Personally, I believe that if there's copper in the bore and you have fouling it's because of 'dissimilar metal galling' Kinda like the two metals gall on each other when rubbed together. If ya have ever seen a spent bearing ya'd see what I'm talking about.
Like every thing with casting there's no hard and fast rule... Just shoot your gun and enjoy it... BUt I would advise against 'cleaning lead' out of a barrel with a jacketed bullet... Kinda leaves a washboard in your barrel..
Calvin

[JRR]

I'm looking at the Laser-Cast book right now. It shows the 30-30 RNFP bullet at .310" plus it has a gas check designed base. Buy a box of Hornady crimp on gas checks and a Lee push through sizer in .310" to install them. Try 23.5 - 26.5 grns of IMR 3031. The difference should be remarkable.

[JSH]

The first laser cast bullets I bought were 30 calPB. Yes, they were plain base alright, but witha GC shank and no check. I called them and they assured me they would work fine with my load and gun I was going to shoot them in. This gun had never fouled before and was a proven CB shooter, fouled very bad with the LC. I called them back and told them of my situation and asked them about their guarantee. I was then told that it was the rifle because their bullets never had problems. Never offered my $ back or anything.
So I did as listed above.
Checked them, tried a few, still no good.
Then I ended up putting two coats of LLA on them just to keep them from leading.
They will go bang, but so will a primer. That is about all I can say for them.
I had bought a box of 500, must still have 250 of them, checked and douple coated in LLA.
I have yet to find anything I own that will digest them to any kind of satisfaction other than a bang factor.
After that go around I was convinced I could do no worse than that, so that was when I started casting my own. I am a picky bastid when it comes to CB's. I will open a box and grab a random handful and look them over pretty good and usually find several culls. I can make my own culls,lol.
The one thing I have found to be very true with store bought slugs, thay all have a pretty nice lube ring on them. To bad it doesn't work very well most of the time.
The only CB's I have bought in the last few years were just a sample pack from a local gent here, hard lube of course. Then I did run across several K of "LANE" bullets that were copper washed that I had shot a wheel barrow full of in the past with very good results.
Jeff

[Boomer Mikey]

Don't mean to highjack the fellows thread, but..... :)

Mind elaborating on that? :)

I've heard it several places, and am realy begining to wonder why..... I can shoot mixed, say, 20 rounds of each, a few lead, a few jacketed, alternating while plinking, and loose no acuracy or have any trouble cleaning.....

Have I got a rare fluke or something?
Curios 'tis all.... :confused:

Gary.

Copper plus flux (bullet lube) and heat will cause soldering of lead to the copper fouling.

Very smooth bores don't have problems (you're a lucky man) most barrels today aren't smooth enough.

Boomer :Fire:

[DeanoBeanCounter]

Thanks everyone. It's all good info. I would have figured it all out in 15 to 20+ years or so. I'll take all into account. Just might be a little while to try anything. Now the magazine (tube) keeps falling off so it's back to the shop with it. I know whats wrong there. Thank you again. :roll:
Deano

[w30wcf]

DeanoBeanCounter,

Thank you for the "thanks". Sorry to hear of your magazine troubles.

I have shot the same bullet without gas checks and found that they did shoot very well up to about 1,400 f.p.s. (1 - 1 1/4" groups at 50 yards). Over that velocity and gas checks are needed to maintain accuracy.

I have had good results with the gas checked 170 RNFP + gas check (311041) up to 2,200 f.p.s. with 18 b.h.n. alloy.:-D

If, by chance, the barrel in your vintage Marlin is not in the greatest of shape, the gas checked bullet would likely outperform the non gas checked bullet even at 1,400 f.p.s. and below.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Glen]

Did you flare the cases before seating your cast bullets? When seating the bullets, could you feel the "stop-n-go" of the driving bands? If so, you were damaging the bullets when you seated them. In contrast to loading jacketed bullets, when assembling cast bullet loads one needs to flare (or expand) the case mouths so the bullet can just slip into the case undamaged. Failing to do this commonly produces results exactly like you described (very poor accuracy, keyholing, etc.).

[Throckmorton]

re: cleaning the barrel. I picked up a VERY old Marlin a while back,and it shot cast bullets all over the place..except where I pointed it.:(
cleaned it with every cleaner I had on hand,and things impoved DRAMATICALLY.
I"m talking FEET here,not inches folks.
I use laser's with gas check and they shoot real well.have not tired non gc bullets yet.

your gun may vary from my experience but wanted to add to the post here.

[MtGun44]

Glen is right on. Lee makes a very nice neck expander die
which works for any caliber and give a nice flare.

This can be a real killer of accuracy and most jacketed only loaders
have never heard of the Lyman "M" die (which kinda does the
same thing, only stepped rather than trumpet type of flare) or
the newer design Lee expander.

I find .311 works best in my Marlin 30-30 with the 311041.

Bill

[DeanoBeanCounter]

:-D I patched the tube on. Loaded some ammo with 16gr Re7 like w30wcf suggested. Found a recipe that said 6 to 10 gr Unique powder. All brought the groups together. I'm not going to try to shoot it at 100 yards, the target is to much of a blur at 50 yards. You all did me good. :bigsmyl2: It's mostly wore out but I love this gun.
Thank you very much
Deano
:Fire:

[w30wcf]

DeanoBeanCounter,

Thank you for the update. Glad to hear that you were able to obtain good results,
especially in a vintage rifle.:-D

w30wcf