Jacketed Hollow Point Expansion

[Shiloh]

What velocities do you need to reliably expand hollowpoints??
We are talking .38 cal 125 gr. Hornady XTP's, and .40 cal 155 gr. Hornady XTP's

Factory shows 900 fps for .38 and 1180 for .40 cal.
Will they work reliably at a bit lower velocities?? Say 825 for .38 and 950 for the .40??

Shiloh

[375RUGER]

are you asking MV or velocity at impact?
I expect you're talking MV. I also surmise that you are looking to not overpenetrate a target, i.e. homedefense.
At what range do you want them to expand reliably? and what MV?

Wet newsprint or some gallon jugs of water will provide the answers you seek.

If I am correct about the homedefense, look at the Speer 110g GDHP, .38. It is light and expands nicely. It penetrates about 8" into wet newsprint and expands to about 1/2" at a reduced velocity. If it could go through somebody I doubt it would penetrate a layer of sheetrock afterward.

[bcp477]

HP's with the 38 Special are problematic. Lose even a little velocity and there is a good chance that they won't expand properly. As 375Ruger suggested, testing will be needed to know for sure. With that said, I must also say that the Hornady XTP's are designed for reliable expansion. Presumably, Hornady designed and tested them for a range of velocities. However, we don't know the limits of that velocity range. The numbers you asked about are not radically slower than the factory numbers you quoted. So, as an offhand estimate, I'd say that you'd probably still get some expansion at those (lower) velocities. Only a guess, though.

Speaking of velocity, 900 fps (38 Spl. with 125 gr. bullets) and 1180 (40 S&W with 155 gr.) are quite doable - no stretch there. So, why not simply load to approximate those velocities ? Then, there'd be no doubts about bullet performance.

[AviatorTroy]

Hornady XTP 125 gr have been shown to have a very hard time expanding from a snubby .38. And even if it did its probably not going to get the recommended 12-14 inches of penetration. Not sure what velocity we are talking but for a snubby anyway it's still hard to beat the terminal performance of a 158 gr SWCHP like the "FBI or Treasury Load"

[Shiloh]

HP's with the 38 Special are problematic. Lose even a little velocity and there is a good chance that they won't expand properly. As 375Ruger suggested, testing will be needed to know for sure. With that said, I must also say that the Hornady XTP's are designed for reliable expansion. Presumably, Hornady designed and tested them for a range of velocities. However, we don't know the limits of that velocity range. The numbers you asked about are not radically slower than the factory numbers you quoted. So, as an offhand estimate, I'd say that you'd probably still get some expansion at those (lower) velocities. Only a guess, though.

Speaking of velocity, 900 fps (38 Spl. with 125 gr. bullets) and 1180 (40 S&W with 155 gr.) are quite doable - no stretch there. So, why not simply load to approximate those velocities ? Then, there'd be no doubts about bullet performance.

Currently running around 950 with a LEE 125 gr RF good consistant accuracy. Had some at 1015 as well. These are fired through a .357 mag.
I'm thinking of loading for a .38 so I'd like to back it down a little. I have some 155 gr. FMJFP for the .40. Probably going to have to go the AA #7 or Blue Dot to bring them up to that velocity. At 7.5 gr of AA #5, I'm just approaching 1000. Max load for AA #5 is 8.0 gr. I like to stay back of max loads.

Shiloh

[LouisianaMan]

Will try to write again after I get home & consult my books, because Hornady's manual actually shows their "design velocities" for each of their bullets.

I use that info, plus the velocities to which Hornady loads any given bullet in factory ammunition, as a guideline for my loading. Roughly speaking, the bottom edge of their design envelope seems to result in nose deformation rather than mushrooming, but once you get an extra 150-200 fps above that you can be much more sure of reliable expansion. (Of course, that begs the questions: 4 layers of denim? Water? Bare gelatin? etc.) My own observations are just from shooting gallon jugs of water.

I originally became a fan of the XTP in the deer woods, though, where I've put down more deer with my muzzleloader than with any other single gun, and I used .44 caliber 240g XTP's to do it. One recovered bullet showed perfect expansion; others penetrated thru-and-thru, and I can only say that the exit wounds indicated expansion had occurred. Never chrono'ed the loads, which ranged from about 90-120g of Pyrodex.

[jmort]

You have to push the XTPs or they will not expand. They are good bullets but they need some speed. Water is not a good testing medium as it is too good at opening up bullets that will not open up in real life. The testing data is out there so no reason to reinvent the wheel. From what I have seen, Gold Dots will expand at the lowest velocities. For lower velocity .38s I use wad cutters - max meplat, low recoil, inherent accuracy, and fantastic/incredible straight-line penetration.

[williamwaco]

What velocities do you need to reliably expand hollowpoints??
We are talking .38 cal 125 gr. Hornady XTP's, and .40 cal 155 gr. Hornady XTP's

Factory shows 900 fps for .38 and 1180 for .40 cal.
Will they work reliably at a bit lower velocities?? Say 825 for .38 and 950 for the .40??

Shiloh

By now you have surmised that the answer is - "It depends".

How long is your barrel?
How fast it it leaving the muzzle?
How far is it to the target?
What is the target comprised of?
What kind of clothing is the target wearing?

The only way to be sure is to test it for yourself.

I have never tried them in a snubbie but from the velocities you are quoting, I presume that is what you are using. I expect 825 would be too slow.

The only testing I ever did with .38 Specials with 2" and 3" barrels was with a 358477 cast hollow point and cast of VERY soft lead. I didn't have a tester at that time but based on what I know now, I expect the BNH was 7 to 8 or less.

These were loaded to levels I would not recommend and will not quote. I would call them .38 Special ++P ( They were much hotter than max but significantly below .357 loads)

I considered them defensive only for ten yards or less and never shot them for practice beyond testing.
I used Bulls Eye, Unique, Herco, and 2400.

They shot to point of aim and expanded well, up to about .50 to .60 in soft clay, wet sand, dry sand, and wet phone books.
( at ten yards ) The only thing you gain with 2400 is FLASH. They appeared to loose velocity over the faster powders and expanded less.

I have NO idea what the velocities were but the Herco load clocks about 1100 fps from a 4" .357.

Bullet weight was around 140gr.


I still carry the 3" Chief with that Herco load when I want a small handgun.

It will create a 2" exit wound in a 30 pound jackrabbit. Never shot anything larger.

[MtGun44]

The ONLY valid answer will come from YOU testing the particular lot of bullets in YOUR gun(s)
with YOUR load to see what you get. Use saturated newsprint bundles or phone books.

Way too many independent variables.

Bill

[Shiloh]

The ONLY valid answer will come from YOU testing the particular lot of bullets in YOUR gun(s)
with YOUR load to see what you get. Use saturated newsprint bundles or phone books.

Way too many independent variables.

Bill

You're probably right. Years ago, a fellow shooter made a contraption from some sort of water tank. It had racks that you could hang news print over to saturate.
Two folks lifted the heavy saturated rack out of the tank, hung it on a fixture, and got the heck out of the way. The point was to shoot the bundle while it was still dripping water.

I have no access to this device anymore, and was wanting to do it by velocity. I'll probably use a slower powder and get as much velocity as I can, yet still staying back from max loads.

Thanks for the help gentlemen!!

SHiloh

[MtGun44]

Tie up phone books or newspapers into bundles about 10-12" thick and drop into a
tank of water with some bricks on it for a day or two, until fully saturated.

Pull it out and shoot. I shoot about 6 or 9 loads per set of phone books - CAREFUL NOTES
and a MAP of what was shot where. Then push a rod down in each hole to measure to the
base of the boolit and record depth to base. Then start peeling back and pull out,
clean and photograph all of them. Add the length of the boolit to the distance to base and
double this for ballistic gelatin equivalent. Expansion will be the same as ballistic gelatin.

Bill

[BCB]

38 Caliber 125 grain XTP’s

HPXTP…850-1600 fps
FPXTP…1200-1700 fps

40 Caliber 155 grain XTP’s

HPXTP…850-1300 fps

That info is from the Hornady 4th Edition…

BCB

[Shiloh]

38 Caliber 125 grain XTP’s

HPXTP…850-1600 fps
FPXTP…1200-1700 fps



40 Caliber 155 grain XTP’s

HPXTP…850-1300 fps

That info is from the Hornady 4th Edition…

BCB

Excellent!! Thank You!!
I'm in good shape for all but a snubby. It's the info I was looking for.
Shiloh

[Matthew 25]

Probably an oversimplification, but... XTPs for hunting, Gold.Dot for home defense, as they are supposed to expand at lower velocities.
see Youtube videos by tnoutdoors9, lots of gel expansion videos with velocities.

[LouisianaMan]

Sorry I didn't get the Hornady info up sooner for you, Shiloh, but thanks, BCB, for bailing me out!
The most workable option for XTP in a . 38 snub seems to be the 110g JHP bullet, whose design envelope is 900-1400 fps. Hornady 8th shows several +P loads reaching 1100 from a 4" Model 15, and some reaching 1050 that are still in the standard pressure range. Those could probably break 900 from a snub, but the resulting "expansion" would most likely be limited to nose deformation.

[DaveCampbell]

+1 on what Matthew 25 said.

I use factory 125-grain Gold Dots in my snubbies. Unless I am asked to specifically test jacketed bullets in handguns, I only use real boolits (i.e. cast) in my .357s, .44s and .45s. Oops, one exception, in .45 ACP I carry Winchester 230-grain PDX 1 ammo.

Over the years I have found that bullet expansion from any handgun can be problematical. JHP engineering has improved greatly, but old ideas and prejudices are difficult to change. With the exception of the snubbies and my 1911s I shoot cast boolits almost exclusively.

Dave

[dubber123]

I never had much luck getting a jacketed HP to expand out of a .38/9mm reliably, especially if you had a barrier such as wood or Denim in front of the media. I carry a soft cast, 158 lead HP with the HP pre-plugged with wax. The wax is an old FBI trick, and negates the plugging effect clothing has on expansion. It really works. I never did try this trick on a jacketed bullet, it might be worth a try if you go that route.

[Shiloh]

XTP 110 grainers would be acceptable for a short barreled revolver. I'll look into the data on those. Might be able to purchase those bullets locally.

Shiloh

[LouisianaMan]

Shiloh,
I would be very interested in your results if you try the 110g XTP's. I'm generally a guy who prefers heavier bullets, but that's in large part because they tend to penetrate. XTP's are famous for penetration and somewhat iffier on expansion. Maybe a 110g could give us more penetration than that bullet weight usually provides, with some expansion to boot.

[Shiloh]

Shiloh,
I would be very interested in your results if you try the 110g XTP's. I'm generally a guy who prefers heavier bullets, but that's in large part because they tend to penetrate. XTP's are famous for penetration and somewhat iffier on expansion. Maybe a 110g could give us more penetration than that bullet weight usually provides, with some expansion to boot.

I'll let you know. Gotta see if I can gat a box locally. I ordered some 125 gr XTP's but have not had a chance to try them yet. Last Wednesday
it was 65 degrees in the upper midwest. In the low thirties since. I might be running out of time.

Shiloh