Cast boolit energy realities for hunting question?

[1Shirt]

I have for many years ascribed to the standard of 900 fpe at X distance was the minimum energy killing for deer sized animals. I reviewed the tables in the back of the next to the last Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. It would appear that for 30 cals with blts of appropriate weights,(160-180 gr), vols would have to be around or better than 1800 fps for 100 yds, and that would be a max distance for the 900 fpe standard. This is for a humane kill, at least in theory. Agree or disagree?

If this is correct, then the only logical alternative for 30 cals and humaine kills at longer distances would be increased vols, for of course increased energies at longer ranges. Soooo-in my mind, if you follow my logic, if you are going to shoot deer with cast at 150 or so, you would need to be in the vol range of 2250-2300 catagory. This is of course regardless of the ctg you are shooting, in the 30-30 catagory with jacketed, in the 170 gr. blt area.

Again if this is correct, and following most of my logic and experiance, it would take vols of in or aroung 2400 to exceed 30-30 loads. Now hopefully, I will always have shots with cast at less than 150, preferably less than 100 on deer. However I am interested in the experiance of others and and distance humane kill reliability.

In conjunction with the above, I conclude, that if you want to shoot at much longer ranges than 100 yds on deer size animals with cast, it is probably prudant to go to larger cals, and heavier boolits at appropriate energy levels. This factor at whatever vol is necessary to obtain the appropriate energy for the so called magic 900 fpe.

Anyhow, this is something that I have had mulling around in my head for quite awhile. Have always liked the old African hunters philosophy on hunting elephant "get as close as you can! And then get 5 yards closer"!
1Shirt!

[starmac]

If a cast bullet comes out the other side, how much difference would the velocity make?

[pmer]

When it comes to cast ME doesn't seem to tell the whole story IMO. I think I'm more of a Taylor knock out guy. That seems to better explain a 850 FPS 45 colt loading.

[Blammer]

I have for many years ascribed to the standard of 900 fpe at X distance was the minimum energy killing for deer sized animals. I reviewed the tables in the back of the next to the last Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. It would appear that for 30 cals with blts of appropriate weights,(160-180 gr), vols would have to be around or better than 1800 fps for 100 yds, and that would be a max distance for the 900 fpe standard. This is for a humane kill, at least in theory. Agree or disagree?

If this is correct,

Well, this is not correct and therefore all assumptions based on it are also not correct.

I shot a deer at 160 yds with a 226gr cast boolit out of my 30-06 at 1850fps and I got to take home venison that day.

Based on your theory the deer should have lived.:smile:

[newton]

Shot placement. That's all. With the higher energy there is "potentially" a better chance of "quicker" kill than with lower energy. There have been a LOT of deer killed with a .22 lr. It only puts out 175 ftlbs or so at the muzzle, much less 30-50 yards. It's all shot placement.

[bearcove]

If #'s kill we'd all have calculators

[357maximum]

shhhhhhh.......do not tell the nice buck I killed at 240 yards with a castboolit in the 357MAX that I did not have enough ooomph left.

I have also used some pretty minimal calibers for deer....IF YOU DO YOUR PART RIGHT math does not matter.


Stop thinking....go hunting.

[bearcove]

Firstdeer 357 mag 1979 I guess it wasn't readin Guns&Ammo

[starmac]

It is a wonder humans lived through them Daniel Boone days. How much fpe does a 45 cal roundball have out of a muzzle loader?

[Adam10mm]

Yup. The kinetic energy stuff is garbage. We've been killing animals with numbers far less than the 900 ft lb at the target for hundreds of years. A lot of bullets start out less than 900 ft lb of energy at the muzzle and make kills past 100y.

[btroj]

I don't worry over energy numbers at all. Place a reasonable size hole thru the lungs/heart region of a deer and it is going to die. Period.

I want enough velocity to do the job. I want enough velocity togive me a reasonable trajectory. What I really want is enoughg bullet weight to get thru to the other side.

One of these years I want to get a deer with my 32-20. Way underpowered by all mathematical alculation buti KNOW that if I place a bullet correctly it will do the job.

I will leave the energy numbers to the Weatherby fans.

[1Shirt]

My congratulations to all who have made long range kills on deer with cast, never said it couldn't be done. It is good that you have that capacity, know drop tables etc. My limitation is 150 yds, for cast or jacketed due to age and old eyes. Agree with Btroj's thread, and know that 22LR's and even shorts have killed deer (it was a poachers choice for jacklighting where I grew up. Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, but to each his own. Placement is every thing in a kill, and a gutshot with a big Weatherby is still a gut shot that may get away. And, Pmer, I tend also to agree with Taylors knock out tables. Of course, my Dad always said it was better to be lucky than smart!
1Shirt!

[leftiye]

Gutshot with a weatherby might be anchored. Depending on the bullet and still maybe. Cain't argue with a hole in the heart and lungs. Cain't argue with Starmac either, once it comes out the other side it's expended all the energy it can inside the game. We've left out boolits expanding though, and at 2400 they're gonna expand, maybe blow up. Probly make a big mess too. That's what expending energy inside the game does. So, big enough hole wins. Maybe get a lower velocity (low KE) larger bore boolit that expands (but holds together), and make a BIG hole clear through? I say the holes have it. Maybe we should explore wound and/or wound channel? And not worry what made the hole even. So long as it does make that hole.

[quilbilly]

Having killed many mule and blacktail deer with a patched round ball over the last couple decades, IU concluded early on that a more realistic rule might be a terminal energy of twice the weight of the animal targeted and a terminal velocity of at least 1000 fps. It is still better to put the boolit in the right place.

[Finarfin]

I think the energy numbers might be pretty accurate for jacketed bullets. If it is too low you get no expansion, and a slow moving fmj is not the best bullet selection.

For cast, it is a balance of bullet hardness, velocity, diameter, and bullet shape.

[Adam10mm]

I think the energy numbers might be pretty accurate for jacketed bullets. If it is too low you get no expansion,
Expansion isn't the primary variable in killing. Placement, penetration, then everything else matters. I'd rather have a full caliber bullet hole in the vitals than a perfect mushroom that stops short.


and a slow moving fmj is not the best bullet selection.
There is no best bullet.

[waksupi]

The longest shot I have killed a deer with was 225 yards, with the .358 Win. using the Bator Heavy (285 gr.) at 2170 fps. Boolit performance was the same as if it was at 30 yards. I don't know how far it will kill, but I do know that is still point blank range with that boolit.

[BHTArrows]

Shot placement. That's all. With the higher energy there is "potentially" a better chance of "quicker" kill than with lower energy. There have been a LOT of deer killed with a .22 lr. It only puts out 175 ftlbs or so at the muzzle, much less 30-50 yards. It's all shot placement.

This is the ticket right here. Put the boolit where it needs to be and you are eating backstrap that evening. Years ago when I was young and dumb, I shot a deer at 420 paces, so 400 yard plus or minus a few on a dare. The rifle was a .270 shooting 140g factory loads, which wouldn't even come close to 900fpe at that distance. The conditions were right and luck was on my side that day as I put it through his heart. Did the deer drop immediately, no he took two or three steps and fell. The bullet was lodged under the skin in the off side after breaking a rib. Would I do that today, no I wouldn't but not because that round can't kill at that range.

[youngda9]

The longest shot I have killed a deer with was 225 yards, with the .358 Win. using the Bator Heavy (285 gr.) at 2170 fps. Boolit performance was the same as if it was at 30 yards. I don't know how far it will kill, but I do know that is still point blank range with that boolit.
Not to rain on your parade, but this is an irrelevant example. That bullet (assuming a conservative BC of .25) is still going 1519fps with 1460 ft-lbs of enerby at 225 yds. "They say" that 1000 ft-lbs is what you should use as a minimum on a deer. Due to it's weight and speed that round will punch a full caliber hole through a deer end-to-end and keep on going. Remember, a 44 cal(larger) 240 grain(lighter) cast bullet will do that at 1000fps(slower).

[gds]

Killed a doe the other week with a NOE 247gr cast out of a 300 blackout. Not sure of velocity but it was subsonic. This is my third year shooting the 300 blackout and have used 3 different bullets all subsonic. 8 dead deer

[1Shirt]

300blackout is an interesting ctg. Would like to try one!
1Shirt!