.30-30 w/o gas checks

[WyrTwister]

I tried to do a search on this , but no luck .

So here goes .

My cousin has a ~ 165 grain FP Ranch Dog mold for .30-30 & I have some of his bullets . But I ran out of GC's . Anyone tried this bullet w/o GC's ?

Loading surplus 4895 .

Thanks ,
God bless
Wyr

[fishnbob]

If the base is made for gas checks, I wouldn't use it without them. Seems to me like it might lead your barrel by allowing gas to cut around the base and would likely lead the leade or right at the beginning of the rifling. How hot are you loading it? That would be part of the answer as well.

[dualsport]

I've shot gc boolits w/o gc in a M94, got great accuracy at 100 yds. I used a light dose of Bullseye. The 4895 may be a problem with no gc.

[OverMax]

Couple things govern your bullets speed.
1. bullets BHN factor. (bullet hardness)
2. Burning speed of your powder.

(Slowing down your bullet speed is necessary to keep your barrel from leading up) Try and keep your bullet speed down under a 1000 ft per sec. Sorry to say using 4895 for a non-gas checked lead bullet is not a good choice on your part. You need to re-consider a different powder altogether for this type of application:> Unique, 4227, 2400, Red Dot, Bullseye. Or better yet look to Cowboy Reloading Data to fill your need under lead bullets usage.
To be honest you can buy a box of Hornady Gas Checks for near the same price you would pay for a pound of different powder> locally. (if ordering powder by phone or internet. Don't forget that add-on charge called >Haz-Mat)

[williamwaco]

You can most certainly shoot them safely but in my experience there will be a small accuracy loss.

If you get 3" groups at 100 with checks, you will probably get more like 4" or 5" without the check.


.

[WyrTwister]

If the base is made for gas checks, I wouldn't use it without them. Seems to me like it might lead your barrel by allowing gas to cut around the base and would likely lead the leade or right at the beginning of the rifling. How hot are you loading it? That would be part of the answer as well.


Planning on ~ 29.5 grains of surplus 4895 .

God bless
Wyr

[Nobade]

I shoot gobs of those same boolits without gas checks in levergun silhouette matches. Drop that powder down to about 20 grains and fill the rest with cream 'o' wheat so it is lightly compressed. Adjust the load upward from there until you get the best balance of power and accuracy. Shooting them at 1800 - 1900 fps with 2 MOA accuracy isn't hard. The COW is the key.

[fishnbob]

I agree with Nobade & Overmax's posts. 4895 is not a good choice. I would look at Unique & 2400, they are two of my favorites in cast shooters. Not to say I don't use Reloder 7 or others, I just have good luck with them. If you only have a few boolits and want to use them as you have the others, I can send you some gas checks to finish them out. PM me if you want a few and I'll mail them to you.
Bob

[WyrTwister]

I agree with Nobade & Overmax's posts. 4895 is not a good choice. I would look at Unique & 2400, they are two of my favorites in cast shooters. Not to say I don't use Reloder 7 or others, I just have good luck with them. If you only have a few boolits and want to use them as you have the others, I can send you some gas checks to finish them out. PM me if you want a few and I'll mail them to you.
Bob


I appreciate the offer . :-)

However , I will probably need more than a few ? I would buy some from you ?

I do not mind ordering 1,000 , but I need to come up with at least one other item to " share " the freight cost . I hate to order only 1 thing & the S&H end up 1/3 or 1/2 the price of the item . :-(

I wish to get close to the velocity of a jacketed bullet . This gets into a long story .

I have a Marlin & a Winny in .30-30 . Both presently have scopes mounted .

The Marlin is well behaved . I have never gotten the Winny AE to zero with over counter bases and rings . Not enough elevation .

I an thinking I did not have enough velocity with previous cast loads . So I want to keep the velocity up . I think that excludes the handgun powders .

I could us 3031 or I may have a little W748 left ? I think I have some WC846 ball powder , that is said to be similar to BallC ? May have some Reloader powder I bought for .4570 ?

I may call a buddy & see if he is going to order anything soon & ask if we could combine an order ?

Thanks ,
Wyr
God bless

[WyrTwister]

I shoot gobs of those same boolits without gas checks in levergun silhouette matches. Drop that powder down to about 20 grains and fill the rest with cream 'o' wheat so it is lightly compressed. Adjust the load upward from there until you get the best balance of power and accuracy. Shooting them at 1800 - 1900 fps with 2 MOA accuracy isn't hard. The COW is the key.

I am too much of a coward to use a filler . :-(

If I did , I would use something fluffy and light , like Kaypock (sp) ?

God bless
Wyr

[WyrTwister]

Something I have not discussed . I size my bullets to about .312" . This seems to help accuracy and minimize leading .

I tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox + Johnson Paste Wax + paint thinner , in about equal parts .

God bless
Wyr

[Larry Gibson]

Good probability of poor accuracy and perhaps leading with that load. My advise for that load is wait until you get some GCs and use them.

I've tried GC'd designed bullets sans the GC in numerous .30/.31 cal rifles including the 30-30 in several rifles. I never got what I considered any really decent accuracy above 1100 fps and that was with Bullseye or Unique powder.

Larry Gibson

[Nobade]

I am too much of a coward to use a filler . :-(

If I did , I would use something fluffy and light , like Kaypock (sp) ?

God bless
Wyr

Kapok doesn't work for this. Either COW or BPI original shot buffer is what you want. No more than 20gr. of 4895 or 3031, or 17gr. 4198 and the rest filler. Works great, I haven't used a gascheck on my 30-30 loads for years since I started doing it this way. Can't get full (2100 fps) velocities but 1800 - 1900 is easy. For faster I paper patch, that's good up to the limits of the rifle and cartridge.

[WyrTwister]

Kapok doesn't work for this. Either COW or BPI original shot buffer is what you want. No more than 20gr. of 4895 or 3031, or 17gr. 4198 and the rest filler. Works great, I haven't used a gascheck on my 30-30 loads for years since I started doing it this way. Can't get full (2100 fps) velocities but 1800 - 1900 is easy. For faster I paper patch, that's good up to the limits of the rifle and cartridge.

What bullet weight ?

God bless
Wyr

[kbstenberg]

Nobade and Larry are like Merral lynch. When they talk people listen. Or should.

[Nobade]

What bullet weight ?

God bless
Wyr

Those 165gr. Ranch Dog boolits. Lots of others work too, but the OP was asking about them.

[Dan Cash]

PM me with your address and I will send you about 500 checks for the cost of mailing. Should be only 2 or 3$ at the extreme top limit, probably much less. I personally dislike having to seat the checks as it is a pain in the rump but to get velocity, you must do what in reqired.

[pdawg_shooter]

Or, you could loos the checks and paper patch them. Full jacketed velocity and accuracy, whats not to like?

[fishnbob]

Or, you could loos the checks and paper patch them. Full jacketed velocity and accuracy, whats not to like?

How would you paper patch a 30-30 boolit? If I am in danger of hijackin' a thread, just direct me to a thread or post that would 'splain it.

[Chill Wills]

Try this guy.
$2.29 to ship.
I use them in silhouette matches. His checks works well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Caliber-011-Aluminum-Gas-Checks-1000-count-/130493494784?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6204b600

[jimkim]

Fill(with a published load) the case to the bottom of the neck with a slow powder like 4350 and use COW. The COW becomes the GC.

[pdawg_shooter]

Go to the smokeless PP forum and read the sticky titled What works for me. I wrote that some time ago and they went and made a sticky out of it. It is the short version but will get you started. PM me if you have any questions.

[Ben]

.30-30 w/o gas checks
I tried to do a search on this , but no luck .
______________________________

This question has come up so many times that I've lost count now.
Here is a sticky ( with 90 responses ) dedicated to answering this very question :

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48857-Gas-Check-Boolits-without-Gas-checks

[geargnasher]

How would you paper patch a 30-30 boolit? If I am in danger of hijackin' a thread, just direct me to a thread or post that would 'splain it.

There's and entire sub-forum dedicated to 'splaining that, called smokeless paper patching. Read Pdawg Shooter's sticky there, everything you need to know.

As for shooting boolits without gas checks in .30-30, a compacting buffer such as Nobade described is one good way to do it and maintain reasonable accuracy and velocity. I've even made paper gas checks out of manilla folder material and that was plenty to stop the throat leading up to about 1700 fps (no filler), but accuracy dropped off much past 1600. Paper jackets will get you to full copper-jacketed velocity with as good or better accuracy if you do it right, and using GC designs without the checks work great in a paper jacket, makes it easier to twist the tail wet without tearing.

One of the issues here to be aware of is that the typical .30-30 chamber has no step at the end of the case, just a long empty space and then a sharp angle into the rifling from chamber neck diameter. There's lots of space around the boolit for gas to leak around and gas-cut the sides of the boolit before it gets engraved. The gas checks help stop the pre-engraving leaks, and buffers (not fiber fillers) keep the seal and prevent this, improving accuracy and eliminating leading in the process.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Here's a pic of the paper gas checks in case anyone was interested:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30384&d=1300071103

Gear

[WyrTwister]

Those 165gr. Ranch Dog boolits. Lots of others work too, but the OP was asking about them.

Yes , I am pretty sure that is the mold my cousin has .

Thanks ,
Wyr

[fishnbob]

There's and entire sub-forum dedicated to 'splaining that, called smokeless paper patching. Read Pdawg Shooter's sticky there, everything you need to know.

As for shooting boolits without gas checks in .30-30, a compacting buffer such as Nobade described is one good way to do it and maintain reasonable accuracy and velocity. I've even made paper gas checks out of manilla folder material and that was plenty to stop the throat leading up to about 1700 fps (no filler), but accuracy dropped off much past 1600. Paper jackets will get you to full copper-jacketed velocity with as good or better accuracy if you do it right, and using GC designs without the checks work great in a paper jacket, makes it easier to twist the tail wet without tearing.

One of the issues here to be aware of is that the typical .30-30 chamber has no step at the end of the case, just a long empty space and then a sharp angle into the rifling from chamber neck diameter. There's lots of space around the boolit for gas to leak around and gas-cut the sides of the boolit before it gets engraved. The gas checks help stop the pre-engraving leaks, and buffers (not fiber fillers) keep the seal and prevent this, improving accuracy and eliminating leading in the process.

Gear

You guys continually amaze me.

[dualsport]

The Ranch Dog molds were available in plain base. Anyone found these to shoot better than a gas check design without the gc?

[sthwestvictoria]

The Ranch Dog molds were available in plain base. Anyone found these to shoot better than a gas check design without the gc?

The Lee TL314-90-swc with a plain base shoots beautifully for myself:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172940-win-94-loves-Lee-TL314-90-swc-and-trail-boss

[WyrTwister]

The Lee TL314-90-swc with a plain base shoots beautifully for myself:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172940-win-94-loves-Lee-TL314-90-swc-and-trail-boss

Is that primarily a handgun bullet ? .32 caliber ?

That was lighter than I was wanting ...........

Thanks , :-)
God bless
Wyr

[popper]

I tried with Unique and 2400, haven't found the sweet load for the PB RD311165 yet. I think the alloy was too hard, 50/50 #2/Pb. The unchecked were worse. I was going to try the COW but ants got in it and I dumped it. I tried the GC'd with 17 gr 2400 and it wasn't steller either. Gear - what tool did you use to fold the paper checks with? Did they come off in flight?

[WyrTwister]

I tried with Unique and 2400, haven't found the sweet load for the PB RD311165 yet. I think the alloy was too hard, 50/50 #2/Pb. The unchecked were worse. I was going to try the COW but ants got in it and I dumped it. I tried the GC'd with 17 gr 2400 and it wasn't steller either. Gear - what tool did you use to fold the paper checks with? Did they come off in flight?

I hope to get close to factory velocity , so I am going to try to stick with " rifle " powders . I have surplus 4895 & I found some WC846 ( I think ? ) .

Anyway , it is a surplus ball powder that is said to have been used for 7.62 NATO ? I have also used it for some 62 grain pulls in .223 . Accuracy was not wonderful , but these 62 grain .223 pulled bullets were treated roughly . :-(

I also have some W748 I could try in .30-30 with the RD bullets . Also .3031 & one of the Reloader powders ( I bought for .45-70 ) .

God bless
Wyr

[AviatorTroy]

I used to leave the gas checks off all the time. Just keep the velocity down to around 1000fps and 50-100 yards, and you should see some success. Try about 8 gr of Unique and go from there.

[dualsport]

I tried with Unique and 2400, haven't found the sweet load for the PB RD311165 yet. I think the alloy was too hard, 50/50 #2/Pb. The unchecked were worse. I was going to try the COW but ants got in it and I dumped it. I tried the GC'd with 17 gr 2400 and it wasn't steller either. Gear - what tool did you use to fold the paper checks with? Did they come off in flight?

That's funny! Maybe we're on to the next Big Thing, ants for filler. You never know.

[popper]

dualsport I'll be happy to send you all the fire ants you need, if you will pay shipping. You want them dead or alive?

[WyrTwister]

I now have gas checks , both Al & Cu .

Thanks ,
Wur
God bless

[Canuck Bob]

Gear, you sure got my interest in those paper GCs! Any quick links?

[ebner glocken]

Gear, you sure got my interest in those paper GCs! Any quick links?

Mine also, I see you have a punch. Is that cardstock? How fast can you push them? I assume they stick on with the spary adhesive. I don't think I'm the only person here that would like more info.

Ebner