7mmTHOR + 7TCU Carbine=Venison [Archive]

357maximum

11-17-2012, 01:12 AM

I got this doe thursday with my plastic stocked 21 inch 7 TCU Contender Carbine @ 130 paces. Boolit was the 7mmTHOR (287377Modified) made from a batch of alloy that consisted of 20lbs of COWW + 20lbs Pure lead +3/4 lb tin railroad babbit that had pretinned copper wire added to it until the precipitation point was reached. Charge was 26 Grains of H322 with a Remington 7.5 sparkplug. She was DRT.

The deer:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer006.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer005.jpg

What was left of the lungs:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer007.jpg

Entrance:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer008.jpg

Exit:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer009.jpg

I was expecting the 100 yard dash O' death when I massaged the trigger. I was bit shocked when she fell where she stood, but happy nonetheless. I did not hit the spine, but got close enough to it that when the THOR removed that section of rib...it was obviously enough to break the circuit.

dk17hmr

11-17-2012, 01:58 AM

Awesome!

Any idea on velocity?

Hamish

11-17-2012, 02:12 AM

And *that*, ladies and gentlemen, is a dang fine way to "proof" this group buy. ExcellentI

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 04:54 AM

Very Nice Max! Can't wait to get my mold and try them out.

Idaho Mule

11-17-2012, 11:00 AM

Very good, congrats. JW

badgeredd

11-17-2012, 12:34 PM

It is great to see that our thoughts on the 7mm Thor were indeed dead on. When the group buy is complete and 20 plus fellows have their very own mold, I'm sure we'll see more successes with this unusual looking, well performing boolit. A couple guys (at least) will be loading in 7x57s and a a couple others have said they'll be trying in 7mm-08s. Of course I see no reason it wouldn't perform well in the 7x30 Waters.

Looking forward to seeing a report on the buck 357maximum shot this morning with the same rifle/cartridge/boolit combination. Rumor has it that it also was a DRT scenario too. Hopefully he'll recover the boolit so we can see how the boolit/alloy combination performed.

Edd

Mark85304

11-17-2012, 12:44 PM

A couple guys (at least) will be loading in 7x57s and a a couple others have said they'll be trying in 7mm-08s. Of course I see no reason it wouldn't perform well in the 7x30 Waters.

I'll be loading it in both 7mm TCU and 7x30 Waters for my contender pistol.

I'm curious how this design in .30 cal would work out say 150 - 165 grains. This might be good in a lot of .30 cal cartridges.

badgeredd

11-17-2012, 01:05 PM

I'll be loading it in both 7mm TCU and 7x30 Waters for my contender pistol.

I'm curious how this design in .30 cal would work out say 150 - 165 grains. This might be good in a lot of .30 cal cartridges.

Lefty SRH has mentioned the same idea to me on the phone. I see no reason it wouldn't work well but I suspect the design would likely come out at or above 165 grains. 357maximum and I have a very similar design in 35 caliber and it weighs right at 235 grains. When I initially made up the 35 version, I intended it for the 357 Max and slightly bigger cases. 357maximum has shot it beyond 250 yards with stability and accuracy from a 35 Whelen...which surprised the dickens out of me! I never would have thunk it possible or probable.

Edd

357maximum

11-17-2012, 01:32 PM

Awesome!

Any idea on velocity?

average of 2512 FPS ..........and it works well. I have photos on photobucket right now....getting ready to write another thread.......because the 7TCU struck again and it was fantastic.

dk17hmr

11-17-2012, 01:55 PM

That is amazing velocity for that small of a case. I have a 25-223 in a Savage bolt, my hunting load is pushing a 110gr Accubond at 2700fps and accounted for a nice antelope buck this year. My I also have a 6TCU 24" contender barrel that has impressed me. I might have to look into a 7TCU for a lightweight hunter.

Keep the pictures and reports coming! My dad is up at camp right now and Im waiting not so patiently for him to call me.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 02:05 PM

So I am sitting in a really nice but relatively unfamiliar to me elevated plywood hilton on a friends place staring at alot of frozen fog this morning. I cannot see very far.....but I am straining the ice chunks out of a Pepsi with my teeth and enjoying the calm relaxing nature of my current situation. I hear all holy hell break loose in a willow patch to my west. The noises are getting closer and I recognize the sounds.....some antlered feller is trying very hard to spread his genes....I just know it. About 15 minutes later ghostly forms of deer appear all over about 90 yards in the fog out in front of me. I can see them with bare eyes but the bino's reveal nothing but static. I see one has a nice set of antlers and he has his gleamy little eyes on one of the does. He continues to harass her for a few minutes then mounts her and then the whole show suddenly gets moved back into the willows. Another few minutes go by and all the bald headed deer leave and go to my east like they are on fire....but I never see the buck go with them.

About 10 minutes after they all dissappear a much smaller doe bolts out of the woodwork and goes right under/by me. I am now burning holes with my corneas into the woodwork from where she came. Just like someone planted a buck seed there he stands at 65 yards staring right under me at his prospective mate/victim. I think to self "now theres a good test shot for the 7MMTHOR. I rapidly get into a real good rested position with the little carbine, then ease the hammer back on my 7TCU carbine and take aim at his chest. When I touched the trigger he went down like the proverbial sack o' tators.....success.:bigsmyl2:

I took him in the area between the shoulder/neck juncture. The boolit angled through the the spine and smashed into the opposite front shoulder from inside the upper rib cavity. I hope the boolit is in the shoulder somewhere as I can see no obvious exit wounds and I never found it in the frothy mess that used to be his lungs and the diaphram remained untouched. I smeared blood all over his side looking for a exit, but found none. That little flatfased pill went through a bunch of bone, the top of the lungs and then into some more bone...I would really like to get a look at that boolit. That has to wait a few days.....I need to get to work and empty the ropefalls first, then I will know for sure...but I pray/bet it is in there.

Thank YOU Mr. Edd that 7mmThor that you modified for me from an old lyman 287377 if performing flawlessly, and I like it alot. Those deer hunters that got in on the group buy for this boolit are gonna be awfully happy. I have even more proof of that:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer011.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer010.jpg

quilbilly

11-17-2012, 02:17 PM

I really enjoy my T/C carbine in 7mm TCU too. I had it to the range yesterday for the first time in a while and the first group out the barrel was 1.25" at 100 yds but the groups have been as low as .75 with that boolit. That was with the Lee 130 gr RNGC which I was testing against the 7mm Bator 140 gr FNGC. With the same load the group from the bator group was over 3". Will have to test some other loads with the bator to try to improve the accuracy since I think the flat nose makes the bator a better hunting boolit. If I ever decide to give up muzzleloading for deer, that carbine will be my choice for the local blacktail deer. My load is 19.5 gr of 4198 for an mv of 1950.

Hamish

11-17-2012, 02:38 PM

[smilie=l::Fire:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=w:[smilie=p:

*That's* the way to tell "The Story". Somebodies having too good a weekend. :bigsmyl2:

I have my fingers crossed that it will get here soon enough to lay something out with the 7BR XP and the 7TCU pistol.

Soooo,,,,, I guess I'm number 3 on the list for the .35Thor?

Quillbilly, think about 2015BR with that Bator.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 02:47 PM

The 30Thor will have to be first....I already have the 35Thor.[smilie=s:

357maximum

11-17-2012, 05:47 PM

Riddle me this:

What does the entrance wound look like when an itty bitty 135grain 7mm ogival wadcutter at a launch speed of 2500fps hits a buck at 65 yards and you shot him in the upper brisket/neck/shoulder juncture in the name of science?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/2012deer013.jpg

The picture makes it look worse than it is, but it is bad enough....test concluded....stay away from any part you intend to eat. Good thing neck roasts are not my favorite chunk of deer......wow. No wonder the lungs were ruby red cottage cheese. When I pull the quarters of him and pull the meat off the bones tomorrow we shall see if I can find whats left of the boolit.:veryconfu I cannot imagine I will find much.

MT Gianni

11-17-2012, 05:53 PM

Nice going Mike, I am looking forward to seeing what this boolit will do from a 14" bbl as well as groups from a 280.

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 06:29 PM

Man this is exciting to hear, God I hope this boolit flies great in my 7x57 RSI....

Can you post a pic of the 30 THOR and the 35 THOR please.

badgeredd

11-17-2012, 06:33 PM

I'd guess the alloy we are using explains a lot of the reason for the boolit performance. Of course the ogival wadcutter shape has to contribute to the performance. Obviously a hollow point wouldn't be necessary or desireable in this case. I'm looking forward to seeing the boolit remains when you cut him up.

Edd

357maximum

11-17-2012, 06:38 PM

Just to be clear....this alloy was a super tough yet mallable alloy that can be pounded flat with a hammer if you have the will and strength to do it. If it had been a standard lead/tin or lead/tin/antimony alloy like lino....I bet the deer would have gotten back up and the boolit would not have made it all the way through to the other shoulder. I also would not get the accuracy I get with this copper enriched alloy with the binary and terinary alloys as this 4 part alloy really shakes off the forces that slump and destroy lesser alloys at this speed/pressure/torque.

I am now more firmly convinced than ever that adding copper to J-word speed castboolits is a good thing. I shot this buck in a TOUGH SPOT in the name of science to test the alloy compared to other alloys I have done similar with. The 4 part lead/tin/antimony/copper alloy outshined them all by huge margins. This test is now concluded and I will stay away from the parts I want to eat. The doe was a better kill as I shot her "through the slats" as you should, but I needed to know what the alloy was capable of....now I know it can be trusted to keep on going through the toughest parts of a deer for those rare instances where the boolit does not land exactly where you wanted it to. Both were successful kills but the buck simply had more damage than I like....that was my fault....I did it on purpose and now I know............test concluded.

Hamish

11-17-2012, 06:46 PM

In the past I have wondered about the need for a 287440. Guess that answers that.

M, is it the angle of the photograph, or is his nose a little "roman"? Having trouble getting a read on his age. I keep thinking he's on the downhill side of 4 1/2, but that makes no sense. The rack says 2 1/2, and he's got no gray starting on his forehead, but something doesn't jive about this one. Have you checked his teeth?

357maximum

11-17-2012, 06:52 PM

He is 2.5 years old. I wish he was a 4 year old buck as around here they weigh alot more with diameter to the racks.............and are as rare as hens teeth unfortunately. Maybe if someone stopped shooting them all the time when they are only 2.5 years old...........I would if everyone else would. I passed a nice 5 point up last night because I liked his shape and his browtines were as tall as his G2's...but the chances of me ever seeing him again are about 39% less than winning the lotto....and I never play the lotto....the state steals enough of my money I damn sure ain't gonna volunteer any more freely.

badgeredd

11-17-2012, 07:37 PM

Man this is exciting to hear, God I hope this boolit flies great in my 7x57 RSI....

Can you post a pic of the 30 THOR and the 35 THOR please.

The 30 Thor has yet to be developed, but for your viewing pleasure, here is a look at the 7mm Thor and the 35 Thor.

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee338/badgeredd/Thors.jpg

BTW, not intended to hijack Mike's success stories at all!

Edd

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 07:51 PM

I don't intend to hijack Mikes thread/stories either. BOY I need a 35 THOR really BAD!!!!

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 07:51 PM

I can only imagine what the 30 THOR will look like....great another sleepless night coming.....

geargnasher

11-17-2012, 07:58 PM

RD 311-165 is a pretty good ".30 Thor".

Thanks Mike for the info on the copper alloy, I was wondering how that would work out at reasonably high velocity and on game. It seems the copper is the trick to add that last touch of strength needed without destroying the malleability.

Gear

badgeredd

11-17-2012, 08:00 PM

:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[smilie=1::twisted:[smilie=1::twisted:

Edd

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 08:02 PM

Lefty SRH

11-17-2012, 08:02 PM

:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[smilie=1::twisted:[smilie=1::twisted:

Edd

Hahahaha LOL LOL, you so evil Edd! [smilie=s:

357maximum

11-17-2012, 08:19 PM

Mike, I have been using the railroad babbit but it sounds like you have taken that a step further by saturating (for lack of a better description) with copper wire. Do you saturate/add the copper wire to the babbit in your production pot?
Can you give us a brief description on how to add the copper?

BaderEdd, Babore, Dutch4122 and myself have been playing with this. I just happen to be the grunt that did the alloying experiments. A production pot will not get no where near hot enough. I use a thin stainless mixingbowl over direct propane flame OUTSIDE in the open air. The pretinning of the wire is what allows to heat transfer to actually do it's job and make it work. Without pretinning the wire you need a rosebud tip on an oxy/acetlene torch to make it happen.

Add the known amount of babbit to the bowl, get it as hot as pssible over direct flame, weigh out your wire that YOU THINK YOU NEED....now take your wire (multistrand copper grounding wire works the best) and hold it in the melt until it is way hot, pull it out of the melt and quench it in soldering flux( I use the tub of rosy red paste flux), dip the wire back into the melt until it tins real well. Put the now tinned wire back in and add a generous spoonful of the paste flux and stir stir stir. You can keep doing this until you reach the precipitation point...that will depend on the amount of tin in you babbit.....make it into little ingots for future use. ....the higher the tin % is in your babbit the easier this is.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 08:20 PM

I can only imagine what the 30 THOR will look like....great another sleepless night coming.....

Ha Ha now that's some funny stuff right there....glad I am not the only OCD feller in the world.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 08:22 PM

Hijacking......who the heck cares....as long as the message gets out there.....not like posts here ever wobble a bit anyway. :bigsmyl2:

Rafe Covington

11-17-2012, 09:00 PM

Congrats, nice shooting.[smilie=w:

Rafe

rockrat

11-17-2012, 09:27 PM

What are your percentages of elements in the alloy?

I have been working with copper in my boolits for the 50bmg, but don't think I need as much copper as I have been using. I had rotometals make me a copper alloy with something like 5% copper, but I diluted it. Now, I think 3/4% copper might be plenty. Even 1/2% might be enough.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 10:03 PM

I dunno:veryconfu

20 lbs of ww/ 20lbs of pure lead/ about 3/4 lb of high tin railroad babbit that has been given all the copper it will take without throwing a tantrum. You need to ask Edd this question.....I just know what works and how to recreate it and then I go shoot things with it. :bigsmyl2:

50/50 + 5% of the railroad babbit works pretty good but that small amount of copper sure guilds the lily.

**oneshot**

11-17-2012, 10:14 PM

nice deer, nice story, great pics. I've seen the damage from flat nosed boolits, just never thought to take pics from the inside.

357maximum

11-17-2012, 11:16 PM

I appreciate the attaboys...sure has been a fun couple of days. Kinda tuckered after completely putting up the doe and skinning the buck though......still not ready to pay someone else to something I can do in a few hours however. At this point i would like to thank the person who invented the food saver bags/system....sure beats the snot out of freezer paper and all that tape/wrapping.

Hopefully the rest of the story will unfold when the front shoulder comes off the buck when he is done airing out a bit. One has to love this to appreciate the smell of a rutting buck.

Had southern fried backstrap tonight for supper and I am still stuffed. [smilie=s:

leftiye

11-18-2012, 06:43 AM

BaderEdd, Babore, Dutch4122 and myself have been playing with this. I just happen to be the grunt that did the alloying experiments. A production pot will not get no where near hot enough. I use a thin stainless mixingbowl over direct propane flame OUTSIDE in the open air. The pretinning of the wire is what allows to heat transfer to actually do it's job and make it work. Without pretinning the wire you need a rosebud tip on an oxy/acetlene torch to make it happen.

Add the known amount of babbit to the bowl, get it as hot as pssible over direct flame, weigh out your wire that YOU THINK YOU NEED....now take your wire (multistrand copper grounding wire works the best) and hold it in the melt until it is way hot, pull it out of the melt and quench it in soldering flux( I use the tub of rosy red paste flux), dip the wire back into the melt until it tins real well. Put the now tinned wire back in and add a generous spoonful of the paste flux and stir stir stir. You can keep doing this until you reach the precipitation point...that will depend on the amount of tin in you babbit.....make it into little ingots for future use. ....the higher the tin % is in your babbit the easier this is.

Hi, Using 60/40 solder worked for me. I used multi strand light cord cut up in 1 inch pieces - which had been weighed out to be 1% of the total melt. Melted into the solder in a large ladle and then that put into the pot. Like you said, acetylene torch played on the copper (on top of melt)., and much stirring. Try to get it (red) hot, but not burn it, the oxide is hard to work in (but it does combine). I mixed pure and 10% tin for maximum toughness. Probly why I had no problem with saturation with the copper. End product was BHN 18.

marshall623

11-18-2012, 07:52 AM

Great story , this has been some good reading. 30 Thor looks like it would be a good match for the Herrett.

357maximum

11-19-2012, 10:14 PM

Sorry to say this fellers but there is no boolit pics....I never found it...it did some kind of David Copperfield trick. The carcass is bare and would not feed a crow and everything is packaged and chilling except the grinds. It must have been left with the lungs/guts. The heart, nor the liver hid the boolit either as I saved them parts....really dissapointed and confused as I do not know where it is. By the looks of things it should have been in that mini-steak from the off shoulder. I JUST DUNNO It went through alot of bone and into the off shoulder/bonesbut must have ejected itself back into the lung/slop and I missed it when I sifted my fingers through the mess apparently.

At any rate I know that the 7MM Thor will do what I need it to even if I ever screw up a bit and hit a "tough" spot as it does not get any tougher than what I did with it unless I switch to a bigger /tougher target.

All well that ends well, but I sure would have liked to seen that boolit.....oh well I guess.

Lefty SRH

11-19-2012, 10:22 PM

Oh well, still good news and very nice results!

pls1911

11-20-2012, 08:14 AM

Marlin Junky

11-20-2012, 05:47 PM

What would it cost to purchase tin babbit (or another suitable high Cu content alloy)? You guys in the upper mid-west have all the good stuff!

MJ

Lefty SRH

11-20-2012, 06:01 PM

The equivalent substitute for the mentioned babbit is RotoMetals #2, last I looked it was $18-$20 per lb.

badgeredd

11-20-2012, 08:54 PM

MJ,

ROTMETALS #3 BABBIT is very similar to our concocted sweeten babbit.

Edd

badgeredd

11-20-2012, 09:13 PM

Regarding alloy:
I use ww/ roofing lead, about 50/50 so it casts soft, but heat treats HARD, but is not brittle like Linotype .
It's cheap, fast, AND easy , and shoots to 2200 fps with gas checks easily, accurately, and without leading.I have included babbit material and/or old type metals, ( mono type, badotype(?), others with high copper content, and they make great bullets, but are an unnecessary effort and expense if you simply heat treat your bullets.

I think you're kinda missing the point of our babbitt alloy sweetener. We do water drop and heat treat when the loads requires a tougher alloy. With the use of the high copper alloy sweetener, we've been able to push boolits into the 2500 to 2800 fps range WITH accuracy. We seem to be eliminating slump and skidding at least to some degree. The resulting boolit is fairly hard but it is malleable and doesn't shatter or break like many 3 part alloys. The expense still comes no where near j-words but seems to have a lot of the advantages of the condom bullets. Heat treating these boolits has been our track from the beginning. This alloy is not at all necessary for slower 2200 fps loads. Actually it is more about the pressure of the high velocity loads rather than velocity.

Edd

Lefty SRH

11-20-2012, 11:02 PM

I think you're kinda missing the point of our babbitt alloy sweetener. We do water drop and heat treat when the loads requires a tougher alloy. With the use of the high copper alloy sweetener, we've been able to push boolits into the 2500 to 2800 fps range WITH accuracy. We seem to be eliminating slump and skidding at least to some degree. The resulting boolit is fairly hard but it is malleable and doesn't shatter or break like many 3 part alloys. The expense still comes no where near j-words but seems to have a lot of the advantages of the condom bullets. Heat treating these boolits has been our track from the beginning. This alloy is not at all necessary for slower 2200 fps loads. Actually it is more about the pressure of the high velocity loads rather than velocity.

Edd

CODOM bullets....now thats funny right there.... ;)

357maximum

11-20-2012, 11:22 PM

My 7TCU barrel is 1 in 9 or 1 in 9.5 twist , this barrel is firing a 135 grain castboolit at 2512 fps....that is the pressure limit using this MAX load for my gun and this cartidge/powder....some general generalities with THIS barrel and this boolit:

..........................at 2500+.........that is when a little sweetening with copper enriched-babbit is needed for utmost in accuracy and for a slight decrease in the desire of the boolit to want to detonate when it runs into fleshy things.....that is all it is there for.

At 2200fps standard waterdropped 50/50 will work....add a touch of that tin/cu babbit and it shrinks the groups slightly.

Below 2200 standard waterdropped 50/50 will work well.....again the cu/babbit will slightly decrease group size.

Below 1900 aircooled 50/50 will work.....no copper need at all anywhere....is does no good. The tin babbit helps but it is mostly cosmetic and a feel good measure.

After reading the above remember one thing......I ABSOTIVELY WILL NOT HUNT DEER WITH ANY LOAD DELIVERING GROUPS THAT ARE ON AVERAGE BIGGER THAN 1.25 m.o.a. from any rifle/long gun/single shot "specialty pistol". I am not saying that the copper is the only way to do this....but I will say it is THEE best way I found as of yet to get a useable hunting alloy at these speeds. Using this alloy the RPM threshold that some spout on and on about is nothing more than a footnote.

357maximum

11-20-2012, 11:25 PM

What would it cost to purchase tin babbit (or another suitable high Cu content alloy)? You guys in the upper mid-west have all the good stuff!

MJ

Don, That's only becauase I know the nice guy that owns all the railroad babbit and he let's me steal some when I need it. That feller will run out and I too will be buying #3 babbit or supertough at some point.

OnHoPr

11-21-2012, 07:51 AM

Couple of good deer there. Interesting concept on the boolit and alloy also.

Doc Highwall

11-21-2012, 11:28 AM

20 lbs of ww/ 20lbs of pure lead/ about 3/4 lb of #3 babbit or supertough looks like a good alloy for my 308 with the the 311365 198gr bullet.

357maximum

11-30-2012, 08:51 PM

20 lbs of ww/ 20lbs of pure lead/ about 3/4 lb of #3 babbit or supertough looks like a good alloy for my 308 with the the 311365 198gr bullet.

I would bet it would and I would really like to know how your experiments go. Simply adding the RR babbit to my 308 loads helped a bunch....I have not got down to the skinny with my 308 and the CU as of yet but it is on the agenda for this coming spring. My 308 Bubba sporter special is a Spanish 1893 that was re-arsenalled into 308...AKA...1916 CivilGuardia mauser. It has a 9.5 twist so it will make a great test vessel. The peep sights will limit the data a bit due to my being the nut behind the bolt...but it will make a great comparison to the standard alloys I already have alot of data on.

Jailer

12-01-2012, 11:13 AM

rexherring

12-01-2012, 01:36 PM

Nice!!! I never tried cast in my Contender but did manage a nice little 3X3 Mule Deer with a 140 Balistic tip in Montana a few years back. I'd like a 7 TCU in an AR platform.

357maximum

12-01-2012, 11:17 PM

Edd, has that babbit of yours had mikes alchemy magic applied to it? I have yet to try anything with it since I don't want to screw it up. For a caster it's the equivalent of a gold nugget so I want to make sure I get it right the first time.

Mike thanks for putting the effort into this, you make it a lot easier for the rest of us by paving the way. For me being still fairly new to casting, when comes to experiments such as this I'm just riding along on the coat tails of others that know what they are doing.

You are thanking the wrong man........I just happened to be the smelter man and the first one to actually draw blood with the idea. Bruce and Edd were the idea men on this one.......not I.

The whole intent of this forum was the sharing of ideas to progress the craft for as many as possible. This forum has done that for me and it has also put me into contact with friends I never would have met without it. Thank Ken, Willy, the staff, Bruce, Edd, Matt and all the other members of this family of the silver stream....not I ......as I do not deserve very much of it.