Blackpowder 7.62x54R

[Jonnytoobad]

Has anyone reloaded this cartridge with BP and cast bullets? Some sources claim it was originally a black powder cartridge, though I suspect it was probably originally a smokeless round. I know it was put into service in 1891...the 8mm Lebel was adopted in 1886. .30-40 Krag was 1890-92ish....

Anyway I was wondering if anyone had tried it

[I'll Make Mine]

Everything I've read says the 7.62x54R was originally smokeless. The .303 British was originally issued in black powder, for an older rifle than the Lee-Enfield (Lee-Metford?), but the Mosin Nagant and Krag-Jorgensen were designed with new cartridges that were smokeless from the get-go.

That said, I've seen a YouTube video in which some kids fired a Mosin with rounds from which they'd pulled the bullets and replaced the powder with black. The general rule for black powder is, fill 'er up; you want the bullet to contact the powder (very slight compression is preferred), to ensure there's no air space. Cleanup after firing black powder can't be any worse than cleaning up after corrosive surplus ammunition -- I'd say go for it!

Oh, yeah -- be sure to use a black powder specific lube in the grooves of your cast boolits; some smokeless cartridge bullet lubes can turn to what amounts to tar in combination with black powder fouling.

[HARRYMPOPE]

yes petroleum based lube gums badly with black.

[nwellons]

Both the 7.62 x 54r and the 7.62 Nagant cartridges were developed as smokeless cartridges. As far as I know, the 54rs were never factory loaded with BP but, due to powder shortages, the Nagant cartridges were often factory loaded with BP during WWI. That is the way I load my Nagant cartridges now.

It could be fun to shoot the 54r with BP. Let us know how it works out.

[bob208]

no reason it would not work. just use a drop tube to get the powder packed in the case. use the right lube.

one time i loaded some bp loads for a low number 03 springfield. they shot well. knocked off some groundhogs. used a 200 gr gc bullet.

[Jonnytoobad]

I have an empty Norma case that is boxer primed I thought I would use it to test how much powder it can hold.

That being said I should only use a cast lead bullet no a jacketed bullet correct?
I have heard that shooting jacketed bullet with black powder is bad, but I can't see why it would be.

It has been said that jacketed bullets have too much friction vs. lead. But the .303 used a Cupro-Nickel jacketed bullet with there black powder loads and 215 grain bullet compressed 70-75 grain charge.

Also would I should probably use FFFG powder, I currently only have FFG because I mainly shoot flint lock muskets.

Jonnytoobad

[I'll Make Mine]

I think the primary reason cast is recommended with black powder is that cast boolits are designed to carry lube, and you need lube to keep the fouling soft enough that you don't develop dangerous pressure increase after five or ten rounds. That said, the .303 round seems to have gotten away with it; perhaps a tight fitting jacketed bullet will scrape out the previous round's fouling.

From what I've read, FFg works fine in cartridges like .45-70 and .450/.577 Martini, but in bottleneck cases smaller than .45 bore rules change somewhat. The primary reason to go with finer powder is if the FFg isn't burning completely; the classic method of checking that with black powder is to fire a shot over fresh snow or a bed sheet, and look for unburned powder granules in front of the muzzle. A few is no problem, but if you're leaving a broad cone of powder granules, you probably need to go to a finer granulation (or a hotter primer).

[Nobade]

You may find you need to go the other way with the powder. I have recently been playing with BP in my 30-30, and find I get the best accuracy with Fg. I suspect you will find happiness, as much as is possible, with something similar to what I ended up with. The duplex loading was determined to be required for multiple shots, otherwise you have to wipe the bore after every shot.

Large rifle primer. 4.0gr. IMR4227 against the primer. Droptube Fg black powder to the base of the neck. Card wad, 1/8" lubed felt wad, another card. I used the RCBS 150 cowboy bullet, you'll want something bigger to fit your bore lubed with BP lube. Don't compress the powder and make sure the wads don't fall below the case neck.

Loaded like this, I was able to keep 20 shots in a 3 inch group at 100 yds (scoped 788 Rem) by blowing down the barrel but not wiping. Previous attempts with finer powder and no felt wad missed the paper almost half the time. This was MUCH better. Also, FFg had WAY more recoil and tremendously loud muzzle blast. I couldn't believe how loud it was. Fg tamed it quite a bit and it was much more pleasant to shoot.

Bottleneck cases really seem to change how black powder burns. The barrel gets tremendously hot, and judging from the primers it is making plenty of pressure. They look like they do when firing full smokeless loads - flat with the machine marks from the bolt face on them. Very different from straight cases.

[perotter]

Has anyone reloaded this cartridge with BP and cast bullets? Some sources claim it was originally a black powder cartridge, though I suspect it was probably originally a smokeless round. I know it was put into service in 1891...the 8mm Lebel was adopted in 1886. .30-40 Krag was 1890-92ish....

Anyway I was wondering if anyone had tried it

http://books.google.com/books?id=7n6Cg9znFrUC&pg=PA357&lpg=PA357&dq=Dmitri+Mendeleev++gun+powder&source=bl&ots=_FSVnxQ64H&sig=EaQrk77ccjG4Whhg2eSq4JVRQz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jiuoUMn2KOWsyAH4koH4Cg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Dmitri%20Mendeleev%20%20gun%20powder&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M28_rifle


It wasn't developed as a BP cartridge, but was loaded with BP in the early years. It was developed using a a smokeless ammon powder. That powder had a very short shelf life(weeks or months) & is said to have caused bad barrel corrosion.

Timeline:

1889 7.62x54R cartridge and MN rifle finished.

1891 The rifle & cartridge adapted.

1891 Lab setup to develop a suitable smokeless powder. It was a few years before a powder factory was up & running.

So, they used BP until the smokeless factory was up & running.

[nwellons]

Very good article on Mendeleev's work. Thanks for the link.

In reloading everything from .42 Berdan to the 7.62 Nagant cartridge with BP, I experienced very inconsistent velocities with every type of primer except Large Rifle Magnum in the Berdan and Small Rifle Magnum in the Nagant revolver.

[bob208]

i would stay with the 2f. i would niot try 3f. if you read the whole artical about the british with bp 303 loads. i think you would find they were having pressure problems.

[Hip's Ax]

The thing about 303 British black powder loads is that the BP was compressed into a cylinder, dropped into the case and the case was necked after. They did the same with Cordite.

In my reading over the years, I read on more than one occasion that loading bottleneck cases with bulk BP can be done, but accuracy is poor.

[Jonnytoobad]

Interesting a compressed black powder pellet would sort of negate whatever size powder was used. I have taken apart cordite loaded rounds before and they are definitely packed in there fairly tightly. I have some 2F elephant powder that I plan to use for the experimentation.

[Hip's Ax]

Jonny, yes, and no. In the theoretical world if one could attain "perfect" compression, that is make the granulated black powder one continuous piece, you would be correct. In the real world if you use a finer grind (say going from 2f to 3f) you will see a higher muzzle velocity for a given amount of compression. That of course implies that the finer grind allows more weight for a given volume before compression and of course due to the finer grind the available surface area is greater.

I'm just thinking out loud here, if I have my head in my posterior please let me know. :D

[Reverend Recoil]

Good luck with a all of this. Percusion revolvers are enough of a mess for me. Don't forget, use a powder measure that can be grounded of static charge and clean your brass cases as you would your barrel.