Off center sizing of Lyman 4500

[375RUGER]

I was reading in another thread about how the 4500 sizes boolits off center. Can someone explain. Is this a problem that exists with the RCBS lube sizer or lubrimatic also.
Why is the Star better, doesn't size off center?

[Ben]

Most any brand of lube sizer is capable of having the top punch in slight misalignment with the sizer die.

One of the reasons that I like the " Lee Push thru system " is the avoidance of this problem.

Example.........I size .30 cal. cast bullets to .310" with my " Lee Nose 1st Push thru system "

Then I take those bullets and push them with my Lyman 45 down into a .311 sizer die FOR LUBE ONLY.

No chance of misalignment with this system.

Ben

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've never used a lyman 4500 or any RCBS lubesizer...BUT,

from my experience, the 3 different Lyman 450s I've owned and used were all poorly manufactured so the installed top punch and installed die do not perfectly allign. I've heard this same tale from others here and have heard that the 4500 is even worse.

I've owned nearly a dozen model 45s...all but one were perfectly alligned, to the naked eye (yes I know that's not perfect...I should say perfect enough). How I guage this ? most dies do not have a beveled inside edge (but some do). I install a die without the bevel and install a top punch that has an O.D. nearly the same size as the I.D. of the die or .002 to .004" less. then you can easily see the allignment or lack there of.

Tom has a good photo and discription of this phenomenon on his website...and the lubesizer is green.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/topPunch.php

Lastly to better answer your question, if your punch and die are missalligned and the nose of the boolit is inside the non-flat 'nose type' top punch, you'll get sized boolits that are askew or non-concentric.
Jon

[PS Paul]

I use The Perfessor's special top punches (available on this site) on my 450 and have had zero problems once I switched over to them! A fantastic item, his prices are very good and it is money well spen, IMHO.

[Freischütz]

Gas checks that are too small for the shank can cause alignment problems if you try to seat them and size the bullet at the same time..

[MT Chambers]

Using the proper top punch and floating it, one way or another should keep things square, of course a Star sizer will size nose first assuring alignment and lube at the same time, no mess, no tumbling, no cookie sheets, etc.

[HangFireW8]

My first 4500 was crazy out of alignment. I sent it back before sizing a single boolit and Lyman sent me one with acceptable alignment. That was right after the previous election (2009).

I use the free-float method to get better alignment (mentioned here many times). Just cover the top punch stemp with a heavy boolit lube to stick it in place, and don't tighten down the set screw. I also use flat punches or oversized ones to lessen any sideways influences on the boolit.

I understand that Star-type sizers are supposed to be more concentric; most of my sizing is only ~.001", and most of my boolits are flat points (just a personal preference), so I really don't have any problems.

HF

[Ben]

I also shoot a lot of cast bullets with flat meplats.

If you take a bullet with a flat meplat and use a top punch
that is flat and keep a thin film of good quality grease on the underside of the top punch that comes in contact with the bullet, the nose of the bullet will " slide " on the underside of the flat top punch and align itself as the bullet enters the sizing die in a concentric manner.

[williamwaco]

I also shoot a lot of cast bullets with flat meplats.

If you take a bullet with a flat meplat and use a top punch
that is flat and keep a thin film of good quality grease on the underside of the top punch that comes in contact with the bullet, the nose of the bullet will " slide " on the underside of the flat top punch and align itself as the bullet enters the sizing die in a concentric manner.


Ditto,

Been doing this since 1956.

.

[geargnasher]

The issue I had with my 450 isn't that it's out of alignment per se, but that there is so much slop in the ram that it can guide the top punch any which way. The design of the ram bore and lever linkage is horrible, the compound mechanism puts a huge lateral strain on the ram bore and it wears/stretches very quickly, and goes from forcing the top punch toward the user in the first part of the stroke to levering it away from the user near the end of the stroke as the linkage "cams over center". That is where the long, skinny boolits get bent, right when you bottom the boolit against the plunger stop the linkage yanks the ram sideways and bends the nose.

Pre-sizing in a Lee or similar push-through setup (Perfesser's adapter kit for H-dies, Magma Star sizers, Buckshot's Lee-style dies, etc) and lubing only in the 4500 will help prevent the bent noses to a large extent because it removes most of the sizing stress that makes the ram go wongo.

Gear

[knifemaker]

I do not have a problem with my Lyman sizer-lube as I made my own top punches on my lathe. Since all my cast boolits have a flat nose, I made a top punch with a flat nose and polished it to a 600 grit to allow the bullets to slide and align themselfs as they go into the sizing die. I did the polishing on the lathe inorder to keep the bottom of the top punch perfectly flat for proper contact with the nose of the cast boolit.

[375RUGER]

All very good to know. Thanks fellas.

[leadman]

I've read of complaints of mis-alignment with the RCBS also. I wonder if the complainers ever read the instructions on aligning the die to the nose punch??

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've read of complaints of mis-alignment with the RCBS also. I wonder if the complainers ever read the instructions on aligning the die to the nose punch??

Are these instructions anywhere online ?
I'd be interested on how RCBS instructs to do so.
Jon

[HangFireW8]

I see on their website instructions for checking alignment, but nothing for doing anything about it, other than STOP and contact cust service.

http://www.rcbs.com/resources/#product_instructions

HF

[Old Caster]

I made a bronze bushing to make a tighter fit in the Lyman 4500 along with a tool to make it perfectly centered. I needed it to fit better when sizing bullets for shooting BPCR matches. If I figure out how to post a picture of it I will. I had a hard enough time just sending a plain post. I hope I didn't send someone the same thing a half dozen times.

[Old Caster]

I think I have it figured out,

54700

[epox]

If you have access to a drill press and taps you can bore 2 additional holes 120 degrees apart from the original set screw and install 2 more set screws. By using the 3 set screws you can center the top punch in the ram once it is lowered into the die. Think about how you adjust the screws on a ceiling light globe. Same principle. Once set then all you have to do is loosen one set screw to remove and replace the top punch.

[Old Caster]

I have never seen much slop in the top punch, and no where near as much as is in the main frame and ram. If top punches are sloppy in your sizer there is a problem there also.

[HangFireW8]

I have never seen much slop in the top punch, and no where near as much as is in the main frame and ram. If top punches are sloppy in your sizer there is a problem there also.

Slop is OK as it is self centering. As has already been pointed out, a single set screw holds the top punch firmly but off center. That's why I use a gob of loob and let it float.

HF

[theperfessor]

That's why I put an O-ring on the stem of my top punches. The real problem isn't the punch, it's a combination of (a) any out-of-alignment issues from the machining of the frame, and (b) wear. The linkage arrangement of the 450/4500. The magnitude and direction of the forces involved causes wear that allows the end of the ram to wobble in an oval arc during the stroke. This doesn't happen with machines that use guide rods, such as the 45.

Gear described it perfectly, now that I've gone back and read his post again.

[geargnasher]

I think the closest-to-perfect base-first lube-sizer design is the Lyman 45, but even it has some issues. If someone would design a sizer with support guides on either end of the ram, spaced at least six inches apart, and bush them tightly with phosphor-bronze, and put grease grooves inside the bushings and zerk fittings on the outside like kingpin spindles on trucks, it would solve the problem. Of course it would add $100 more to the cost, and require a specially trained person to ream the bushings on each press to a close-tolerance fit with the ram.

Gear

[.22-10-45]

I usually size in reloading press with Corbin bullet reducing dies, or Lee..then only lube in the Lyman. You can nose-first size in a Lyman by using smaller than bullet dia. flat faced punch..twice as much work as you then have to lube base first..but at least the bullet will be straight.

[1maxhunter]

so let the top punch float and dont set the screw..