H&R 357 mag deer hunting question

[Milsurp Junkie]

I just sighted in my new to me 357 mag/max deer rifle.
The absolute most accurate loads that I had tried were the remington-umc 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints, providing an honest 1 MOA accuracy at 100 yards :bigsmyl2:.
I have not had time to cast and load up any cast or jacketed boolits for it, so I am stuck with what I have tested.

I was planning on going hunting with it this weekend on our small Texas Whitetail deer (>150 Lbs). I am however concerned that the bullet is too light, and may expand too quickly on a deer (they are SD rounds primarily). Would a heart/lung shot be best, or a head/neck shot?

Any feedback would be appreciated. This rifle show promise!

Milsurp Junkie

PS- Also tried the H&R Buffalo Classic in 45LC, and at 25 yds it showed promise, but moving the target back to 50 and 75 yards I could not get it on the paper :sad: (again Remington 250 grain Roundnose, 225 grain SWC, and Collins 250 grain RN cowboy loads were tried). I could not spend any more time at the range because I had to head back to work. I think that I was grossly underestimating the rainbow trajectory of the round significantly. I do not have a chrono to tell me the speed either :sad:

[torpedoman]

loose the cowboy loads and bump it up to where it should be. the light loads have a place COWBOY SHOOTING if your going to shoot any distance or hunt you need to load it a bit heavier. Your bullet will preform just great as for placement that's your call i rather go heart lung.

[Milsurp Junkie]

Yeah, my dies should be here in a day or so, I have some keith style boolits, but no time to work up a load for the 45 LC.
That is why the main question was about the 357 mag, as it gets there and hits where I aim it. I repeated 3 5 shot groups that would almost fit in a quarter. So the accuracy is there, and it is a pleasure to shoot and carry.

The 45 H&R does not have a sling on it at the moment, so that makes it a bit less appealing for my style of hunting (I prefer stalk and walk, as opposed to being in a blind with a feeder).

Milsurp Junkie.

[Jeff H]

Not that I have an answer, but the questions that would bounce around in my head regarding the 125 grain 357 would be:

1) If I get a close shot, will the extra velocity gained from the longer carbine barrel cause the bullet to expand too quickly to reach the vitals?

2) if I get a "long" shot (100 yards), will the 125 grain still have enough speed left to expand at all, or penetrate far enough to do enough damage?

I have never used a 125 grain 357 on game, so I have no idea either way, but those two thoughts would bug me until I proved them to be unfounded.

[357maximum]

I would imagine that at reasonable distances a shot to the heart lung area would do the deed....but you have zero room for error with a bullet that fragile. BTW....This is coming from a feller that has killed 175lb deer with a 223REM.......but with the RIGHT bullet.


IMHO your bullet choice could be much more appropriate. A 158 grain Jacketed Soft Point would be better................a 180 grain cast boolit with meplate would be much much mo betta.

[wgr]

load the max. with 180 grain bootlets ,at a good speed . you will have no problems

[nanuk]

I am wondering

if a 125gr JHP is considered to be the best "ManStopper" shooting through a jacket and penetrating deep into a man's chest cavity, I really think that a broadside shot on a deer would do EXACTLY the same thing.... and as for 100yds? I think if you have a nice broadside shot, on a stationary deer... well, I'd take that shot. (I do have the H&R357, and some 125gr Remingtons to try this on)

but then again, I am patient and never shoot a moving deer. Even with my .270Win.

[Milsurp Junkie]

As I stated, I just purchased and had a chance to sight in the rifle today.
I only had the 357 JHP available. Although I have dies, cast and jacketed bullets, powder, and primers, I have had zero time to work on a load for this rifle. I was just impressed with its accuracy.

I have the same concerns regarding either premature expansion when fired out of a rifle. If I had time, I would load some 158 cast, and some 180 Hornady XTPs that I have and be much more comfortable.

I know the area that I will be hunting, and I am expecting the range to be between 25 and 75 yards. Again, a chrono would be very useful as at least I would be able to know muzzle velocity, and approximate velocity at various ranges.
Heck even having some time to test the rounds against wetpacked telephone books would give me some indication of yay or nay.

Milsurp Junkie.

[garym1a2]

I cronoed that round out of a marlin94 once. It picks up a lot of speed in the rifle. I don't remember the number but it booking.

[725]

At distance, light bullets loose keneitic energy fast. Go heavy. The deer deserve it.

[Milsurp Junkie]

I am thinking that a high neck shot would be the most ethical shot. Even if the bullet acts as a varmit bullet at that range, it would shock the circulatory/nervous system enough for a quick put down. Of course, I would make 100% I was confident of the shot before pulling the trigger.

[Milsurp Junkie]

According to Remington's website: muzzle velocity is 1450 FPS, and at 100 yards is 1090 FPS.
Of course they do not mention barrel length, but I am assuming ~7". This barrel is 22" long on my rifle. The question is whether or not the extra barrel length is going to increase or decrease velocity.

Milsurp Junkie

[Reg]

Seeing is believing. Was playing with the same concept a few years back, a light hollow point bullet being driven about as fast as it could go. On paper it looked great but then I decided to try a simple penetration test to give me a better idea of performance.
Lined up a bunch of one gallon water jugs and fired one of those hot rod bullets into it.
It only penetrated the first jug and the bullet itself completely disintegrated . That is what it would do on a deer size animal as well.
Then used a very heavy cast bullet. It went through 14 jugs and we found it in a wood back stop. Almost a perfect mushroom.
Think about it. What is going to be a better killer on a deer sized animal?
It seems one never gets a "perfect" shot, close but seldom ever.
I have also had bullets in a 22-250 actually explode on the surface of the skin on coyotes. Blew a lot of hair off but they got up and took off running.
You must have penetration in order to get into that "boiler room " and a light bullet at high velocity simply will not do it. When shooting at prairie dog sized critters, it doesn't matter. The more spectacular the better but a deer has a lot more body mass and you need a certain amount of bullet weight and a correct velocity in order to penetrate into a vital area. You owe it to the animal to take the best kill you can.
Take your load and get some gallon water jugs and see for your self.

:drinks:

[jmort]

Here:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

[singleshot]

I am wondering

if a 125gr JHP is considered to be the best "ManStopper" shooting through a jacket and penetrating deep into a man's chest cavity, I really think that a broadside shot on a deer would do EXACTLY the same thing.... and as for 100yds? I think if you have a nice broadside shot, on a stationary deer... well, I'd take that shot. (I do have the H&R357, and some 125gr Remingtons to try this on)

but then again, I am patient and never shoot a moving deer. Even with my .270Win.

Nanuk, I was thinking the same thing. This load is WORSHIPPED (by some but not by me) as the best manstopper of all times, yet the same people would denigrade it as a deer load. A self-defense situation is way more important than a deer hunting situation. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, if you think it's an effective manstopper, it will work fine on deer AT SIMILAR RANGES AND SHOT ANGLES. As far as energy goes, if it's good at 15 yards with a snubby, it'll be fine at 100 yards with a rifle. This round will loose half its energy at 100 yards, but it starts out of a rifle with twice the energy.

[montana_charlie]

I just sighted in my new to me 357 mag/max deer rifle.
Which is it ... mag or max?

What ammo have you been shooting ... mag or max?

CM

[Milsurp Junkie]

It is reamed for 357 max, although I do not have any max ammo to try through it. I just had the 357 mag and 38 specials +P on hand. For the record the 125 jhp 38 special +P, had decent accuracy, with a 2.5" group at 100 yards, but the 125 grain 357 mag rounds did it in an 1" group (5 shot string) 3 times in a row.

[Milsurp Junkie]

Here:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

This is showing a muzzle velocity of ~2000 FPS out of a 16" Win 94.

I actually found the Remington test data was for a 4" barrel:
Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Barrel Length
R357M7 Remington® Express™ 110 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point 5 1/2 4"
R357M1 Remington® Express™ 125 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point 5 1/2 4"
GS357MA Golden Saber™ 125 Brass-Jacketed Hollow Point 5 1/2 4"
LL357M1 UMC® Leadless™ 125 Flat Nose Enclosed Base 5 1/2 4"
L357M12 UMC® 125 Jacketed Soft Point 5 1/2 4"
R357M2 Remington® Express™ 158 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point 5 1/2 4"
R357M3 Remington® Express™ 158 Soft Point 5 1/2 4"
R357M5 Remington® Express™ 158 Semi-Wadcutter 5 1/2 4"
RH357MA Core-Lokt® Hunting 165 JHP Core-Lokt® 5 1/2 8 3/8"
R357M10 Remington® Express™ 180 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point 5 1/2 8 3/8"

Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Remington® Express™ 110 1295 1094 975
Remington® Express™ 125 1450 1240 1090
Golden Saber™ 125 1220 1095 1009
UMC® Leadless™ 125 1450 1240 1090
UMC® 125 1450 1240 1090
Remington® Express™ 158 1235 1104 1015
Remington® Express™ 158 1235 1104 1015
Remington® Express™ 158 1235 1104 1015
Core-Lokt® Hunting 165 1290 1189 1108
Remington® Express™ 180 1145 1053 985

Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Remington® Express™ 110 410 292 232
Remington® Express™ 125 583 427 330
Golden Saber™ 125 413 333 283
UMC® Leadless™ 125 583 427 330
UMC® 125 583 427 330
Remington® Express™ 158 535 428 361
Remington® Express™ 158 535 428 361
Remington® Express™ 158 535 428 361
Core-Lokt® Hunting 165 610 518 450
Remington® Express™ 180 524 443 388

Mid-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100
Remington® Express™ 110 0.8" 3.5"
Remington® Express™ 125 0.6" 2.8"
Golden Saber™ 125 0.8" 3.5"
UMC® Leadless™ 125 0.6" 2.8"
UMC® 125 0.6" 2.8"
Remington® Express™ 158 0.8" 3.5"
Remington® Express™ 158 0.8" 3.5"
Remington® Express™ 158 0.8" 3.5"
Core-Lokt® Hunting 165 0.7" 3.1"
Remington® Express™ 180 0.9" 3.9"

[lathesmith]

Your 125 JHP 357 Max load will kill a 150 lb or less whitetail deer stone-dead out to 100 yards or so, maybe a little more, with either a neck or lung shot. However, with that bullet, keep the shot as broadside as you can, NO steep angles, and you'll bag your deer.

Me and my late father have killed several Missouri whitetails with just the rig you describe. Our preferred 357 max load used a 158 gr Remington JSP ; this load blew clear through a couple of different deer, even one that was more-or-less spine shot.
As others have pointed out, a 125 grain JHP isn't the max's best bullet for hunting deer, but since it's all you got just remember a few limitations and you can make it work.

Good hunting,
lathesmith

[rjathon]

It is easy to get suckered into using an inappropriate bullet by fine accuracy. However, a properly constructed bullet that groups into 4 inches at 100 yds is far superior to an inappropriate bullet that groups into 1/2" at 100 yds.

Forget about limiting yourself to certain shots at certain angles. Get a bullet with a strong track record in your caliber and velocity. If it doesn't shoot accurately, try another. You don't need a tack driver for deer.

Once you find your load and are sighted in on sandbags start over only this time shoot off hand or from whatever position that you will be shooting in when actually hunting. This is the only accuracy that matters. Find out what your group size is then, and resight your rifle if need be as it might shoot to a different point of aim than from your hands.

Limit your range based upon the quality and velocity of your bullet AND the accuracy when shooting from your hands.

Tiny little groups with varmint bullets from a bench rest have no value on deer. Hunting is not about the gun, it is about the hunter, namely his shooting skill under hunting conditions and his judgement about what equipment to use, especially bullets, and his limitations on when to use it. Don't pull the trigger unless you are sure of success.

[Milsurp Junkie]

I agree, and I have several rifles that will do 2-4" groups no problem at 100 yards (mosin nagants, 30-06, and even 30-30), but this rifle just suckered me in with its accuracy potential. I am in the process of working up a 357 mag or max load that would be a better choice. I guess that I will relegate the 357 mag 125 jhps for varmint hunting (which is fine by me, because the ammo is so cheap!).

I would like to that all those people that posted on here, as I respect the wisdom that you possess. That is why I asked the question here!

Thanks again and happy holidays!

Milsurp Junkie.

[FergusonTO35]

The Hornady XTP 158 grain flat point is an excellent j-bullet designed for use on deer size game. They're very accurate in my Marlin 1894. I used to shoot them over a near max charge of Hodgdon 4227 and a standard SP primer. As I recall they were getting around 1750 fps out of the carbine barrel and had no trouble making a nice big hole through a seasoned 8" log. It was a very pleasant shooting load, about like a 20 gauge trap round.

[BAGTIC]

I am assuming this is a single-shot rifle. I would try a 180 grain seated out as far as practical. The heavier bullet will have a little lower muzzle velocity than a 125 reducing its chance of blowing up but it will have more velocity down range ensuring more energy and more penetration. It is the traditonal load for low velocity guns, heavy high SD bullet. I have several .357/.357 Max single-shots and LA and I would never use less than 158 grains for deer in any of them.

[Milsurp Junkie]

I am going to the range w/ an assortment of bullets in both 357 mag and max this week. I will see if I can find an acceptable higher grain bullet (158 and 180 XTP, 140 grain Leverevolution, and even some Barnes solid copper). I also grabbed a box of Remington 357 mag 125 grain JSP bullets. I just wanted to see if this gun just happens to like lighter bullets. I would expect that the jacketed soft point would hold together much better than the JHPs. If all else fails, I will relegate the 125 grain JHPs to varmint rounds.
Has anyone here done any jug/ballistic gel or wet newspaper tests with the JSPs?

Thanks again for all the information all you guys have given. I believe that the animal deserves the quickest, most humane kill possible. I doubt that the 125 grain JHPs would provide that unless I had a high head/neck shot, and I am not willing to take that unless the animal is not moving around a lot.

[jburris2001]

at the range you expect 25-75yrds. you should be fine with a heart/lung shot.

[DIRT Farmer]

My only experience with the 125 JHP was one deer my son shot with a Ruger Blackhawk, 5 times and finished off with a 38SPL WC. I worked a shooting as an EMT/P where the man who was shot (Smith 4 in barrel) took one in the sternum which richoetted down and was found in the pelvic area the only damage was to the diphram. Round #2 went into the 4th rib 2 inches right of the left nipple richoetted off exited in the left frontal side of the chest striking the bicep and lodging aginst the bone in the upper bone without breaking it. He was definatly stopped but was breathing and talking to me, left the hospital three days later. I switched to 158 grn JHP for my duty gun on the PD.
I shot one deer with the 357 Herriot loaded hot and the Lyman 155 GC cast. The deer went ridged on impact then colasped with a hit to the chest. The lung were mush.