AR Ideas

[Rich22]

Posted this on one site, thought I would throw it over here to get some more opinions.

So the wife and I the other day were at the gun club and a guy shooting a couple tables over had a AR in .223 and we got to talking and he asked if we wanted to shoot it. Seeing as how I have 0 rifle experience I said hell yes walked on over and threw 5 shots downrange and the wife did the same. Needless to say now it is time to get into the long guns.

Being as how as I said I have no experience I am looking for advice on generally everything from basic rifle to parts to optics. In addition to the .223, 300 Blackout is also a consideration, .308 would be drastic overkill. We will shoot at relatively short ranges, 100% under 300m, 80% under 100m so that needs to also be factored into the equation along with the fact I have horrible vision so will likely need more magnification than normal for a given range. Looking at everything out the door for 1500 or less since I plan on buying enough components to send the UPS man out on workmans comp. This rifle will likely be the only one for the foreseeable future and will be shot very regularly, approx, 1 range trip a week of 100-150 rounds and that is assuming I don't want to do competition with it so it does need to last. I do not have a problem building the rifle if that is what it takes to get the job done. If there is another type of rifle that would work better than an AR please let me know. Lastly, the wife will also be shooting this, she is strong but only about 5'2 so anything huge will just not work.

On my basic research I have looked at some things that I am really leaning towards now

Vertical foregrip, tried one and was much easier

BUIS, not sure of the type but possibly the 45 angle offset that I have read about

Muzzle Break

On the .223 a 16 in barrel if going with the 300 Blackout then I will have to look up and see how much the velocity differences are between barrel lengths at the ranges I will likely shoot.



Any ideas and info on parts and sources would be greatly helpful, only so many decisions can be made but just googling.

Thanks

Rich

[garym1a2]

If you don't hunt with it or plan to cast for it the .223 is hard to beat for cost of ammo and preformance. An M&P sport at $650 or less is hard to beat as mine has been 100% reliable for over 2000 rounds. I like the Colt M4 types as they can now be found for around $1100 and are a great deal. With the adjustable stock you can fit a large male and a small female.
Muzzle breaks help the controllability but I don't like the blast you get from them.

[tomme boy]

Stick with the 223. Keep it simple. All the add on stuff is not worth the price. All it does is make it heavy and look cool to the kids at the range.

[nicholst55]

The 45-degree angled sights were developed by and for gamers; competition shooters who are compelled to use these devices by the course of fire of their specific discipline. IMHO they are both totally unnecessary and equally undesirable for the rest of the population. Angled foregrips, vertical or otherwise, are designed to provide a more natural grip position while kicking down doors and conducting Close Quarters Battle. Try shooting from the bench with one, and you'll immediately discover why they are suited for little else.

I will echo the advice above: keep it simple, at least for a start. Most of the 'cool-guy' accessories are of little use to the average Joe.

[rockrat]

Stick with the 223. Bullets are cheaper than the 30cals and brass is everywhere. Put a nice Burris scope(3x-9x or 4x-12x) on it. Get a flattop upper if you can and a gas block with a pitacinny type rail. That way you can have removeable iron sights for the other half, if she wants, and optics for you.
Get the barrel lenght both of you can live with. A flash hider is not necessary. The 223 isn't going to recoil enough to be a problem.

[Blammer]

a 16" barrel is LOUD, really loud, get an 18 or 20" barrel. Muzzle brake or more commonly called a Flash Hider on AR's is pretty much standard, but not necessary. Nice to have a good one if you're prone on dusty ground.

Get a basic AR15 in 223, to change to 300 BO or 25-223 or 6mm-223 is a mere change of barrel, easy to do and all it will cost you is a barrel.

308's are a totally different platform.

[Love Life]

5.56 chambered AR is the way to go. It is easy to shoot, cheap, and very accurate. If called upon for self defense then the .223/5.56 has laid more than enough people low to prove itself.

Throw the 45 degree anlge sights idea in the garbage. That has to be the lamest thing to happen to ARs in a long time. You can point shoot with your finger in close quarters. Easy cheese.

As for optics your budget may limit you, but a 1-4 power variable with cover about 90% of what needs to be done with an AR in 5.56/223.

BUIS are a good idea.

The forward verticle grip is entirely user preference and if you like it then I say go for it. Look at the ones that pull double duty as a bipod. Since the wife is shooting it I would go with the M4 Variant with the adjustable buttstock.

Other than that have fun.

[BruceB]

Dag NAB it, people..... it's a muzzle B-R-A-K-E!!!!!!!!

A "brake" is a device used to slow something down....would you believe a recoil pulse? The muzzle BRAKE (hopefully) slows the rearward movement of the firearm in recoil..... that's why we call it a BRAKE.

[longhorn]

Colt 6920. Sling, mags, lots of ammo. You're welcome.

[Jack Stanley]

A local man wanted to get an AR with similar conditions as you state . After he got a chance to shoot my heavy barrel and a pals AR pistol . He went and bought a M&P and has been very happy with many rounds down range to prove it . It is very accurate as it comes from the box along with being very reliable . He did add a scope to it but nothing more .

A lot of that stuff that's added looks more like bubba bait and though someone who practices with the stuff it can help . I suspect for most people the money would be better spent on ammo and practice . It's funny watching a guy with a rack grade Garand and experience beat the gamers with a dressed out AR .

Jack

[dk17hmr]

I would go basic. I have found that all the add ons make them harder to shoot than a basic rifle/carbine.

The two 223s we have here are very basic and light weight. My wifes AR (painted pink) has a 16" stainless barrel, bird cage muzzle brake, free float fore end, red dot sight, and a collapsibale stock. Mine has a stainless 14.5" barrel with a pinned comp, free float fore end, red dot sight, and a collapsibale stock. I have tacked all the extras on several ARs and ending up taking them off and learning to shoot the basic guns.

Barrel lenght isnt going to make any difference inside 300 yards. I have shot my 14.5" out to 700 yards and only requires a little more MOA to get there. Inside 300 yards though there isnt much difference between a 14.5, 16, 20, or 24 inch barrel.

You can build two ARs for that $1500....just saying

[Rich22]

Thanks for the responses. The 45 sights were just an idea and from the response not a particularly good one I tell so will surely leave them off for now. Foregrip just feels much more natural to me, still cannot decide on a scope or RDS, that one is sure going to take some thinking. If I am reading this correctly I cannot shoot lead in the .223? Hmm that I did not even consider honestly. I have enough brass to sink a small boat but getting enough factory bullets to fill how much I want to shoot will cost quite a bit that I just had not planned for. Very interesting info guys , appreciate it and please keep it coming.

Rich

[runfiverun]

you can shoot lead in the ar.
ask little girl about shooting boolits at ground squirells and at the nevada cast boolit shoot this year.

if you look at several different rifles some of the rear sight handles come off, revealing a 1913 rail which you can mount a scope on.
my stag is like this.
bought it very lightly used for 700.00 otd.
i like 20" with flash hiders,medium weight barells, and round free floated handguards when i can get them regular ones if not.

[Ickisrulz]

Unless you want a rifle length AR (20" barrel), go with a mid length gas system. These are a little nicer shooting. In my opinion they look better than the carbine lengths with the 16" barrel too. Although you can get a carbine length with a 14.5" barrel with an extended FLASH HIDER that has been permanently attached and you don't have to do the NFA thing.

Stick with .223/5.56 as it's cheaper. A nice 1-4x scope has a lot going for it. Some can be used in the same manner as a red dot.

Bravo Company USA has some of the best stuff. I have two ARs put together using their uppers/BCG/CH/stocks.

[xacex]

I have built a few of these rifles, and can offer what I have found. The 223/556 is cheap, and easy. I love my 300 blackout but finding ammo if you are not dedicated to reloading is still troublesome in some areas. For cast I would choose the blackout without hesitation, but for REAL fun...try a 50 Beowulf. That thing is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Brass can be a bitch to find, and you will want to reload and cast for it to keep cost down.It is a low pressure round so you can get a lot of loads out of your brass. You will most likely lose your brass before you split a neck. The Rainiers are cheap to get a hold of while I wait on Mihec to rerun his 502 mold.
For sights I like the military Matech rear sight, but they are not as durable as the magpul MBUS sights. Those magpul sights can take a beating for a plastic sight. You cant mount them on a gas block tho. Watch out for cheap magpul MBUS sights designed for training. They are air-soft toys and not meant for combat use. Forget the 45 degree sights. If you can spring for a sight get a eotech. You can use it with your back up sights in co witness, or put a magnifier behind it for longer range.
Surplus ammo and arms has some stripped uppers for cheap that you can build from, or upper kits. JSE surplus has complete uppers cheaper than about anyone. I have built 4 kits from Sarco, and all have been great guns with Mossberg 5.56 barrels. Aim surplus has the lowest price for a forged lower right now. It is a surplus ammo and arms lower. The cheapest lower out there right now is the New frontier polymer lower sold through Joe Bobs outfitters for $44 stripped, and like 100$ for a complete lower shipped.
Hope that helps you out a bit. For 1500$ I could build almost 3 rifles without the optics all milspec.

[Del-Ray]

First, decide what this rifle will be used for.

Do you want a 20" for some longer range, more accurate shooting? Or something shorted for "self defense"?

Do you just want something to tool around at the range, or something as reliable as possible?

Do you need a popular name on the side of it to look cool? Apparently that's important as well.

First thing I tell my customers, "If the person selling you the rifle says it's all mil-spec they are either lying, or over simplifying the truth. The ONLY way to get a milspec rifle is to have it issued to you from the armed forces. Rifles can be built to a known set of specs, up to and including exactly what the materials are made of, but unless it has been inspected by a government inspector it ain't milspec.

There are aspects of milspec you don't want. That stupid little cutout on the 16" barrels everyone sees? Unless you can get your hands on a grenade launcher, they are worse then useless. Adding weakness, and a stress point for no need other then to copy "milspec".

You want to control recoil? Muzzle break, but your co-shooters will loath you. -OR- you can get a mid length upper, an H2 heavy buffer, and make sure it has a full auto bolt carrier. They ARE legal in a semi auto. The extra mass controls felt recoil very well. And it makes extraction more reliable leading to a more reliable firearm as well. Then maybe a "flaming pig" muzzle device to throw all the concussion forwards.

Good luck!

[Tazman1602]

Stag Arms mod 3

They've been flying out of my shop for a little under $900. Put a set of Burris P.E.P.R. mounts and a Leupold Mark AR scope on it and you will NOT be sorry.

That's what my personal AR has on it and it is a GREAT combination.

Ary

[GT27]

Stag Arms mod 3

They've been flying out of my shop for a little under $900. Put a set of Burris P.E.P.R. mounts and a Leupold Mark AR scope on it and you will NOT be sorry.

That's what my personal AR has on it and it is a GREAT combination.

Ary

I've got 1 too,basic KISS AR,weapon for life! GT27

[xacex]

First, decide what this rifle will be used for.

Do you want a 20" for some longer range, more accurate shooting? Or something shorted for "self defense"?

Do you just want something to tool around at the range, or something as reliable as possible?

Do you need a popular name on the side of it to look cool? Apparently that's important as well.

First thing I tell my customers, "If the person selling you the rifle says it's all mil-spec they are either lying, or over simplifying the truth. The ONLY way to get a milspec rifle is to have it issued to you from the armed forces. Rifles can be built to a known set of specs, up to and including exactly what the materials are made of, but unless it has been inspected by a government inspector it ain't milspec.

There are aspects of milspec you don't want. That stupid little cutout on the 16" barrels everyone sees? Unless you can get your hands on a grenade launcher, they are worse then useless. Adding weakness, and a stress point for no need other then to copy "milspec".

You want to control recoil? Muzzle break, but your co-shooters will loath you. -OR- you can get a mid length upper, an H2 heavy buffer, and make sure it has a full auto bolt carrier. They ARE legal in a semi auto. The extra mass controls felt recoil very well. And it makes extraction more reliable leading to a more reliable firearm as well. Then maybe a "flaming pig" muzzle device to throw all the concussion forwards.

Good luck!

True, but explain that to someone who doesn't know the difference between a milspec buffer tube and a commercial tube when they want to upgrade there stock. The M16 bolt and AR 15 bolts are also a good example. Oversimplification maybe, but it designates what parts will fit where, and the benefits or lack there of of certain features. With so many commercial parts available it is a good designation to the size or tolerance of parts between the two, and whether or not things will fit or function as they should. The M4 barrel may be a little weaker, but that hasn't stopped the military from continuing to issue it, and some may like the look of a standard military "style" barrel even if they don't understand the function of the cut. Hey, and you can still mount a 37mm flare/smoke grenade launcher to it. So it is not a "lie" to tell costumers that their rifle is all milspec as long as you point out what you just said, and it is just a designation describing fit and function. Some that are new to military rifles need oversimplification just like new recruits.

[Rich22]

If you don't hunt with it or plan to cast for it the .223 is hard to beat for cost of ammo and preformance. An M&P sport at $650 or less is hard to beat as mine has been 100% reliable for over 2000 rounds. I like the Colt M4 types as they can now be found for around $1100 and are a great deal. With the adjustable stock you can fit a large male and a small female.
Muzzle breaks help the controllability but I don't like the blast you get from them.

Do not hunt but I do plan on casting for it, have to in order to afford all the shooting I want to do with it.


a 16" barrel is LOUD, really loud, get an 18 or 20" barrel. Muzzle break or more commonly called a Flash Hider on AR's is pretty much standard, but not necessary. Nice to have a good one if you're prone on dusty ground.

Get a basic AR15 in 223, to change to 300 BO or 25-223 or 6mm-223 is a mere change of barrel, easy to do and all it will cost you is a barrel.

308's are a totally different platform.

I appreciate the info but any longer of a barrel than a 16 just seems like a waste to me since I am going with only shorter ranges, especially if I get a 300 black since if I am not mistaken they are much more efficient with shorter barrels. I have already eliminated 308, just too heavy expensive etc for what I need.



I have built a few of these rifles, and can offer what I have found. The 223/556 is cheap, and easy. I love my 300 blackout but finding ammo if you are not dedicated to reloading is still troublesome in some areas. For cast I would choose the blackout without hesitation, but for REAL fun...try a 50 Beowulf. That thing is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Brass can be a bitch to find, and you will want to reload and cast for it to keep cost down.It is a low pressure round so you can get a lot of loads out of your brass. You will most likely lose your brass before you split a neck. The Rainiers are cheap to get a hold of while I wait on Mihec to rerun his 502 mold.
For sights I like the military Matech rear sight, but they are not as durable as the magpul MBUS sights. Those magpul sights can take a beating for a plastic sight. You cant mount them on a gas block tho. Watch out for cheap magpul MBUS sights designed for training. They are air-soft toys and not meant for combat use. Forget the 45 degree sights. If you can spring for a sight get a eotech. You can use it with your back up sights in co witness, or put a magnifier behind it for longer range.
Surplus ammo and arms has some stripped uppers for cheap that you can build from, or upper kits. JSE surplus has complete uppers cheaper than about anyone. I have built 4 kits from Sarco, and all have been great guns with Mossberg 5.56 barrels. Aim surplus has the lowest price for a forged lower right now. It is a surplus ammo and arms lower. The cheapest lower out there right now is the New frontier polymer lower sold through Joe Bobs outfitters for $44 stripped, and like 100$ for a complete lower shipped.
Hope that helps you out a bit. For 1500$ I could build almost 3 rifles without the optics all milspec.

One day I will have a 50 that is for sure, could you or someone please explain a magnifier to me? I am guessing it is something you can either mount or flip up to add magnification to a RDS?


First, decide what this rifle will be used for.

Do you want a 20" for some longer range, more accurate shooting? Or something shorted for "self defense"?

Do you just want something to tool around at the range, or something as reliable as possible?

Do you need a popular name on the side of it to look cool? Apparently that's important as well.

First thing I tell my customers, "If the person selling you the rifle says it's all mil-spec they are either lying, or over simplifying the truth. The ONLY way to get a milspec rifle is to have it issued to you from the armed forces. Rifles can be built to a known set of specs, up to and including exactly what the materials are made of, but unless it has been inspected by a government inspector it ain't milspec.

There are aspects of milspec you don't want. That stupid little cutout on the 16" barrels everyone sees? Unless you can get your hands on a grenade launcher, they are worse then useless. Adding weakness, and a stress point for no need other then to copy "milspec".

You want to control recoil? Muzzle break, but your co-shooters will loath you. -OR- you can get a mid length upper, an H2 heavy buffer, and make sure it has a full auto bolt carrier. They ARE legal in a semi auto. The extra mass controls felt recoil very well. And it makes extraction more reliable leading to a more reliable firearm as well. Then maybe a "flaming pig" muzzle device to throw all the concussion forwards.

Do not want a 20 that is certain, would like to go as short as possible without having to deal with the commie Govt and the idiotic NFA. Do not care about name or anything else except performance , cannot really figure out when I would use this for HD instead of the shotgun but who knows it could happen plus even with my range guns if it is not 100% reliable I tend to get very aggrivated and lord knows I have enough aggrivation without my guns adding more.

More and more I think about it I am thinking 300 black with 14.5 with muzzle brake. RDS or scope (having a real hard time thinking about that one). Vertical grip, Backup sights like the magpuls and somewhere down the line consider a light since I really can see where that could be useful and then leave everything else off. If I wanted to go this route which company should I talk to within my budget or would I be forced to build it myself?

Thanks guys great info here, keep it coming

[AviatorTroy]

I had lots of experience with older military rifles, but none, zero with the Black Rifle. Then a couple years ago my uncle gave me a stripped lower receiver and said have fun learning about them. So literally started from scratch, did a bunch of research, and built a rifle ( they call these frankenrifles) from all different components. The lower is an Olympic, the fire control group is DPMS, the upper is RRA, the furniture is some gun show stuff.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/aviatortroy/th_66d19bfc.jpg[/URL][/IMG]




Anyway I had a ball building it and can't wait to do another.

My .02$ that mean nothing.... Since you say this is your first rifle, skip the vertical forearm, rail grips, collapsible stock, and all that other "tactiCOOL" stuff and go for a rifle that you can learn to shoot well. Stick to .223. Fixed buttstock, full length gas system, heavy barrel, and so on. I do like the flat top reciever for its flexibility, you can mount a detachable hand guard or go with some optics. Or whatever floats your boat.

They are fun.

Oh I had to edit this, I know that some guys cast for .223 but I don't. I ordered a coffee can of pulled surplus 55 gr bullets, think there was 5000 in the can, for about 85 bucks. So I know I can't cast cheaper than that.

If you are steadfast in wanting to cast for it, I would look at one of the 300 subsonic calibers like you had mentioned earlier.

I have to say I'm not crazy about shooting cast out of any direct impingement gas system gun like the AR. I assume you are aware that the gas gets diverted into the bolt carrier where it directly acts on the rear of the bolt to unlock it after pressure drops, then the gas is vented out the side of the bolt. Too close to my face for lead vapors to be wafting around.

[Del-Ray]

To state a part is mil-spec, which has not been tested as such is a lie. It takes me about ten minutes to explain the difference. Yes, most parts are interchangeable. But most are not tested to the same standards. Nor made to the same standards. The military needs the barrel notch to fit a grenade launcher. Thus the weaker barrel is an acceptable trade off for them. On a civilian rifle it's purely a negative.

Is the bolt HPTed? Was it MPed? Chromed? Staked properly?

Many complete rifles sold have one or more of these. Not a single one through my shop, or seen at others have all. "This rifle is made to pretty much universal standards of interchangeability, but it is not really mil-spec. No civilian AR is.

I want to start new owners off right. If that means a little more time, then so be it.

Heck, it took me months to get everyone to stop referring to .223, and 5.56 as the same round! Better customer education is the key.

Go for a 14.5" barrel, with the muzzle brake pinned on. And decide what you want to shoot out of it. That will tell you what barrel twist to go for.

[wv109323]

I will throw in my .02 cents in also. If you want to build I would look at J&T Distributing. Their rifles are Double Star and have a good name. The advantage to their kits is that the upper comes assembled and correctly headspaced. Basically you assemble the bottom end ( no special tools required) and you are good to go. Their options are almost unlimited so you don't have to buy a packaged deal and then change something out to what you really wanted.
I would start with a .223 for reasons already stated. Remember you can always buy a dedicated .300 Blackout upper later.
I would look at a flat top if you are going to scope it and forget about iron or other sights. I would stay away from heavy barrels if the little lady is going to shoot it much.
A really nice option is a match trigger.
Get as long a barrel as you need .
Forget about all the garbage that you can hang on the front end. Lights lazers, Night optics.
Look at Wal-mart. They are selling some AR at quite attractive prices, if they meet your needs.

[xacex]

One day I will have a 50 that is for sure, could you or someone please explain a magnifier to me? I am guessing it is something you can either mount or flip up to add magnification to a RDS?





I just went out and tossed some 50's down range this afternoon. Took a fellow AR nut with me that had never handled one, and I got to tell you the look on his face was priceless when he hit a gallon jug of water at 125 meters. They go off like someone put a quarter stick of dynamite in em!
The magnifier is a monocular basically that you can flip between your eye and the RDS. You can purchase the eotech magnifiers in different magnification ranging from 2x to 7x I believe. When you don't need magnification you just flip it off to the side. I like the eotech 512's but unless you have a railed hand-guard you will run out of real estate on top of your receiver with the BUIS, magnifier, and eotech. The 512's are long, but they are cheap(under 400$ new), and you can use standard AA batteries.
As for the milspec argument, I have both de-milled parts from M16's and commercially available milspec, and they are all stamped with the same MPI,HPI monikers, and the chrome lining. The spikes tactical bolts have the exact same stamps,staking,ect.,ect. that my military issue M16 bolts have. And Spikes is what I consider mid grade parts. A lot of my stuff is marketed as milspec, but is better than what uncle sam gets! You know why the military doesn't have TiN coatings on their parts? Because it is not cost effective, and contracts go to the lowest bidder. A lot of these company's we order from have government contracts such as DSA. DSA make rifles for the front lines with the same parts they sell to you or I. I have family in the box right now with DSA rifles, and I think they are also just a marginal manufacture. Care packages of Lancer L5's make it in occasionally because a life is worth more than a low bid on a contract.
I don't know everything about these rifles, but I have built several from scratch. Staking a bolt properly is not hard to do, but I still have seen M16 bolts with loose gas keys.

[Rich22]

I had lots of experience with older military rifles, but none, zero with the Black Rifle. Then a couple years ago my uncle gave me a stripped lower receiver and said have fun learning about them. So literally started from scratch, did a bunch of research, and built a rifle ( they call these frankenrifles) from all different components. The lower is an Olympic, the fire control group is DPMS, the upper is RRA, the furniture is some gun show stuff.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/aviatortroy/th_66d19bfc.jpg[/URL][/IMG]




Anyway I had a ball building it and can't wait to do another.

My .02$ that mean nothing.... Since you say this is your first rifle, skip the vertical forearm, rail grips, collapsible stock, and all that other "tactiCOOL" stuff and go for a rifle that you can learn to shoot well. Stick to .223. Fixed buttstock, full length gas system, heavy barrel, and so on. I do like the flat top reciever for its flexibility, you can mount a detachable hand guard or go with some optics. Or whatever floats your boat.

They are fun.

Oh I had to edit this, I know that some guys cast for .223 but I don't. I ordered a coffee can of pulled surplus 55 gr bullets, think there was 5000 in the can, for about 85 bucks. So I know I can't cast cheaper than that.

If you are steadfast in wanting to cast for it, I would look at one of the 300 subsonic calibers like you had mentioned earlier.

I have to say I'm not crazy about shooting cast out of any direct impingement gas system gun like the AR. I assume you are aware that the gas gets diverted into the bolt carrier where it directly acts on the rear of the bolt to unlock it after pressure drops, then the gas is vented out the side of the bolt. Too close to my face for lead vapors to be wafting around.

If I could get bullets for that price it would not even be a question then but best I can find currently for .223 is about 75-80/thousand which would severely limit the amount of shooting that I could do to far less than the 750-800 rounds a month that I want to do.

As to the accessories, I do agree to an extent that keeping it simple is best for now however with the vert foregrip I have found I am simply more comfortable with it and as for the collapsible stock, with the wife and I being 6 inches different in height, being able to adjust the stock would be of benefit. I am having a heck of a time deciding buy Vs build right now, are there any weird tools that are required? If I wanted a 300 blackout, where would I go for a manufacturer for a complete rifle? I assume most of the quality builders have a model? I will check that out. In the buy vs build, is there $ to be saved or is it simply for the fun of it? I do like projects but have no gunsmithing experience whatsoever.


The magnifier is a monocular basically that you can flip between your eye and the RDS. You can purchase the eotech magnifiers in different magnification ranging from 2x to 7x I believe. When you don't need magnification you just flip it off to the side. I like the eotech 512's but unless you have a railed hand-guard you will run out of real estate on top of your receiver with the BUIS, magnifier, and eotech. The 512's are long, but they are cheap(under 400$ new), and you can use standard AA batteries.

Does the magnifier distort the view at all or does it work quite well? Man too many options as far as optics. Under 400 new would definitly work for me if the quality is there.

Thanks guys

Rich

[xacex]

Does the magnifier distort the view at all or does it work quite well? Man too many options as far as optics. Under 400 new would definitly work for me if the quality is there.





The quality is there, but you paid for it. The magnifiers produces by eotech are very clear without distortion. I have a 3x and don't think anyone would need more magnification. Unfortunately, the magnifiers can cost $500 or more for the eotech, but it is worth every penny. The nice thing is you can get just the eotech, and decide later if you need the magnifier or not. I waited for almost a year before getting one, but with my bad eyes it was worth it. With the 5.56 I was having a hard time seeing the holes at 25 meters let alone 50 to 100. For hunting I don't use the magnifier because the dot is where my bullet is going, or a little lower on long shots, and it ads weight to the rifle. With the 50 I can see the holes with iron sights at 100 meters. The blackout at 50 the holes are visible to me with no magnification.

[Rich22]

The quality is there, but you paid for it. The magnifiers produces by eotech are very clear without distortion. I have a 3x and don't think anyone would need more magnification. Unfortunately, the magnifiers can cost $500 or more for the eotech, but it is worth every penny. The nice thing is you can get just the eotech, and decide later if you need the magnifier or not. I waited for almost a year before getting one, but with my bad eyes it was worth it. With the 5.56 I was having a hard time seeing the holes at 25 meters let alone 50 to 100. For hunting I don't use the magnifier because the dot is where my bullet is going, or a little lower on long shots, and it ads weight to the rifle. With the 50 I can see the holes with iron sights at 100 meters. The blackout at 50 the holes are visible to me with no magnification.

Ahh I gotcha now, no way I can justify 900+ for a optics package that is for sure unless I was to get the cheapest AR on earth and I doubt that would be a good idea. Thanks for the info though

Rich

[camaro1st]

i built my ar 5.56 piece by piece and shoots as good as a bought one. plus i get the joy of saying i assembled it!!!(and was less expensive). As far as shooting cast i run 50/50 lead ww and gas checks, no leading, and no problems with the gas tube. the barrel is 5.56 (recommend) 1-9 twist. the only special tool needed was a armors wrench for the barrel wrench. options are endless you know how you want it set up. I enjoy my ar.

[Moonie]

I have 2 AR-15's, both home built, one in 300BO the other in 6.8SPC. I don't feel the need for a .223/5.56 but do load for one my son has. Thankfully he shoots his 300BO upper more than the 5.56.

I do not have an issue finding ammo as I cast and load for every firearm I own.

[Rich22]

Could you tell me where you got the parts for the one in 300BO? I am looking around and unless I find one I like very soon it looks like building is going to be the way to go.

Thanks


I have 2 AR-15's, both home built, one in 300BO the other in 6.8SPC. I don't feel the need for a .223/5.56 but do load for one my son has. Thankfully he shoots his 300BO upper more than the 5.56.

I do not have an issue finding ammo as I cast and load for every firearm I own.

[blpenn66502]

I don't think you've stated what exactly you want to use this AR for; punching paper, shooting moving/reactive targets, hunting, 3 gun competition, night hunting with an EOTech and NVGs...

Mil-Spec is over-hyped and primarily a marketing tool. However, to state a part is Mil-Spec only because it has tested by the government is inaccurate. A part is Mil-Spec because it meets all the current military specifications called out in that particular referenced Mil-Spec. Inspection by the government has nothing to do with it then becoming Mil-Spec. Current military acquisition practices put auditable quality control systems (Mil-Spec and process control confirmation) on the contractor, with the government possibly conducting minimal testing on samples from the lot before acceptance depending on the contract specifics. If a barrel must have a minimum useful life of 6000 rounds per the Mil-Spec, is every barrel made under contract fired 6000 times before accepted by government? Of course not.

As other have said, Mil-Spec items may provide value to you or be an unnecessary expense or compromise. A chrome lined bore is called out in a Mil-Spec for 5.56 barrels but it is generally accepted that it degrades accuracy. Do you need your AR's finish to be able to pass a 1000 hour salt spray exposure test? Only you can decide.

I think you are on the right track with keeping it simple and it is simple to switch out or add components. I like the a foregrip for my shooting style and you don't have to use it even if it is installed. I'd also say that an adjustable six position stock is also appropriate for how you want to use it between both of you. Depending on how rock solid you want it and what other added features you want will of course determine how much you'll need to pay.

As for parts, I've used Palmetto State Armory but they are painfully slow to ship but they generally have good prices and if you are patient, really good deals at times. Joe Bob Outfitters another one I've used and will continue to use.

[Rich22]

Your right I never did explain uses. Essentially punching paper at the range, yes moving targets are possible also. 3 gun is a distinct possibility and HD is an unlikely but possible usage if the 12 gauge gets *****'d somehow. This will be used a LOT as in 600 rounds on a slow month up to 2000 possibly in one where I have a lot of time and the weather is good but it will be maintained extremely well. Right now I have a very good idea of what I want to start with thanks to you guys and those over on Glocktalk. Now it is just finding a AR with barrel+muzzle brake at 16 inches, in 300 Blackout with quad rail, vertical foregrip and totally flat top and collapsible stock and nothing else. Have yet to be able to find a decent one that is already put together that I can buy for anywhere near my budget of about 1100 since still need several hundred more for optic. Anyone has any ideas I would love to hear some sources that have something like that available.

Thanks

Rich
I don't think you've stated what exactly you want to use this AR for; punching paper, shooting moving/reactive targets, hunting, 3 gun competition, night hunting with an EOTech and NVGs...

Mil-Spec is over-hyped and primarily a marketing tool. However, to state a part is Mil-Spec only because it has tested by the government is inaccurate. A part is Mil-Spec because it meets all the current military specifications called out in that particular referenced Mil-Spec. Inspection by the government has nothing to do with it then becoming Mil-Spec. Current military acquisition practices put auditable quality control systems (Mil-Spec and process control confirmation) on the contractor, with the government possibly conducting minimal testing on samples from the lot before acceptance depending on the contract specifics. If a barrel must have a minimum useful life of 6000 rounds per the Mil-Spec, is every barrel made under contract fired 6000 times before accepted by government? Of course not.

As other have said, Mil-Spec items may provide value to you or be an unnecessary expense or compromise. A chrome lined bore is called out in a Mil-Spec for 5.56 barrels but it is generally accepted that it degrades accuracy. Do you need your AR's finish to be able to pass a 1000 hour salt spray exposure test? Only you can decide.

I think you are on the right track with keeping it simple and it is simple to switch out or add components. I like the a foregrip for my shooting style and you don't have to use it even if it is installed. I'd also say that an adjustable six position stock is also appropriate for how you want to use it between both of you. Depending on how rock solid you want it and what other added features you want will of course determine how much you'll need to pay.

As for parts, I've used Palmetto State Armory but they are painfully slow to ship but they generally have good prices and if you are patient, really good deals at times. Joe Bob Outfitters another one I've used and will continue to use.

[softpoint]

I have a couple, Bushmaster, and Rock River bottoms, .223 is probably the cheapest to shoot, but my favorite is my 7.62x39 Cheap surplus ammo can still be had, although not as cheap as it used to be, Mine has a Shaw barrel, shoots good handloads into about an inch, cheap Russian ammo into 2 inches or less. I have been very happy with it. I got the upper from Model1Sales, and the magazines from Cmag. BTW, it is cast friendly, too

[Awsar]

got a early 1970s coltAR from my dad got a heavy bbl flat top for it love it no recoil accurate easy to find ammo. and the ease of getting more top ends for different calibers if and when i want to :)

[xacex]

http://www.jsesurplus.com/jse16300aaccmmgmidwestss10g2withlpkandcbststock-riflekit.aspx
Not in stock right now, but keep your eye on it. All you need is a stripped lower like Surplus ammo and arms Aero Precision, Palmetto ect. Putting in the parts in a lower is no issue. Some tape on a pair of vice grips, a punch maybe and anyone can do it.
Here is another choice. I like dealing with this company.
http://www.surplusammo.com/advanced-armament-ar-15-300-blackout-16-upper-receiver-assembly-kac-urx-ii-free-shipping/
upper
http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-ar15-stripped-lower-receiver-sa-15/
stripped lower
http://www.surplusammo.com/dpms-ar-15-complete-lower-receiver-parts-kit-clamshell-packaged/
lower parts kit
http://www.surplusammo.com/ar-15-mil-spec-collapsing-stock-assembly-buffer-tube-weight-spring-castle-nut-receiver-plate-no-stock/
Buffer tube kit
http://www.surplusammo.com/magpul-moe-collapsible-carbine-stock-mil-spec/
A nice Magpul MOE stock
All in stock. It will take less than an hour to put together for a complete beginner, and comes in on budget.
I can get better prices if I wait around for the good deals, but this is a good company that will let you swap out stuff if needed. You could call them about their rifle kits, and I am sure they will swap out the blackout barrel for the difference. Aim surplus has their lower receiver for less than what they charge. You need to be on the email list to get one when they come in because they sell out in an hour or so sometimes. They get them once or twice a month. If you are up for it you can save another hundred or two if you assemble the upper.
$1,039.98 minus the stripped lower, shipped free if you piece it together in the upper box. I did the same thing for around $600 a year ago, but did everything including staking the gas key on the BCG.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I agree with keep it simple , I built several and have enjoyed them all , made one with a 24 inch barrel , interersting shooting next to my daughters 20 inch hbar bushmaster , no flame out of the 24 , using same pmc ammo , no need for flash suppressor /muzzle brake . Start basic , buy the add ons later if thats your desire , have fun

[Rich22]

I tried calling several places friday. Primary arms has nothing and PSA was closed so I will have to try back tomorrow. Would much rather get a complete rifle but I am just not finding anything out there that is quality that is near my price range. Tough time to be shopping around I guess.

[Artful]

Welcome to the new Obamanation - a land where guns, ammo and components are going to fly off the shelves - again!

First I would buy the lower receiver(s) before O and new congress starts in on the lame duck mandate to change America's rights... pick up rest as you go.
Yes, that was plural - one for you and one for the wife. Why, because in my house, if it fits me well the wife can't find comfort in using it so she now has them set up for her stature.

How far do you think you'll have to go to be happy?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/David%20turns%2050/CAV15300Whisper.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/David%20turns%2050/CAV-15MiddywithIRLasersurefireflashOKOdotandSWAN40LBUI S.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/David%20turns%2050/CAV-15akaBlackswordwithTAC16Surefire500turboforearmand Trijiconchevronreflex.jpg

Some advise from one who has paid for learning.

Get a lower with adjustable length of pull if both of you are going to be using it.

If you can't see iron sights but want a quick Min. of Man gun go red dot - if you want Min. of Bottle cap get 1.5 to 2 power that cranks up to 6 to 7 power variable scope.

If you want flash suppression or recoil relief it makes a difference in what you choose
- of course if you want to save your hearing/reduce flash/reduce recoil all at once, get a suppressor (but you don't want .gov to deal with ...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_N_IUVXG7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3-N88ySTA

Ballistic's with 223/5.56 will very depending upon barrel length.
http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/223plot.gif
as will port pressure which will operate the weapon.
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

So for first gun I would suggest 18-20 inch fluted barrel with flash hider. 16 inchers reduce effective range/velocity/performance - unless your giving up on 300 yard effectiveness.
That is for 223/5.56- for 300 whisper I would go 16 inch.

As far as extra stuff. Unless you have a need for it don't put it on.
On the above rifles the long barrel with can and light is for Varmint hunting
the mid-length with Red Dot and IR laser is for three gun - including night shooting courses.
the plain jane with scope is for paper punching - it's a 300 Fireball - aka 300 Whisper or 300 Blk or 300/221

[Mike Hughes]

Rich, you are right, this is a bad time to be shopping (thanks to Obummer getting re-elected). I was in the same boat, and looking at the 300 blk, here is what I did. The uppers are becoming hard to find, a seller on gunbroker.com has 5 CMMG 16" complete upper for $609 with free shipping. PK firearms still has a good selection of complete lowers. I got a Rock River with standard trigger and adjustable stock for $305 + $20 shipping + $20 FFL. I put a 3-9x scope on it and I tell you what. This is one sweet gun, by far my favorite gun I have. I have been trying differant cast boolits with differant powders and it has functioned perfectly with everything I have put through it. This gun may never see a J bullet. Pull the trigger on this deal and you could be shooting the 300 blk by next weekend. I would recommend a freechex III(make your own gas checks) and a Lee 312-155-2r mold. It does not have the quad rail or vertical grip, but you can always add these later.

[xacex]

I have been stocking up on lowers all year when I have extra cash. My problem is every time I build a 5.56 someone shoots it and wants it. So I sell it off and build a better one for myself as an upgrade. It has gotten to the point that I have upgraded to a nice 50 beowulf with a rifle length free float handguard. Magpul everything, and stainless barrel. I have one 5.56 in the safe now, but I have had to tell two people no already. The 300 blackouts, and 50 beowulf are just to fun! I want to do a 6.5 grendel next. My only problem is I only have 3 stripped lowers left, and wanted to just keep those bare. So I may just build a grendel upper for the Beo lower. These things are just to fun to build and shoot! Whatever you decide to do get one soon. You will have no regrets.

I would recommend a freechex III(make your own gas checks) and a Lee 312-155-2r mold. It does not have the quad rail or vertical grip, but you can always add these later.
+1 That's exactly what I did!

[KYCaster]

Well, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but............

Why do you want a barrel shorter than 16"? You said competition is a possibility, so you may want a compensator on it in the future. If that's true then the short barrel will be a problem. I can't think of any situation where a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash hider would be superior to a 16" barrel, and I haven't noticed a 20" barrel causing any significant problems.

Vertical fore grip is useful only if you spend extended periods of time "at the ready". It can help reduce fatigue when you have to hold the gun in firing position for extended periods, otherwise it serves no purpose and is a detriment to good marksmanship.

If you have no gunsmithing experience why would you even consider building your first AR? If you build it and it doesn't work, who do you complain to? One poster said he can build almost three AR's for your $1500 budget.........well, yeah.........you can BUY almost three AR's for your $1500 budget, so why would you even consider building one unless that's what you really want to do? Do you think you'll get a better gun? That's not likely.

Cast boolits?????????...........If that's important to you then do some research on rifling twist rates and velocity. Unless you're a die hard cast boolit user, you may find that j-words are a more desirable option in .223.

Optics............that's a whole 'nuther can-o-worms.......If you want magnification because of poor eye sight then the red dot sights won't help you. They can work well out to 100 yds. or so, but beyond that other options will probably work better. Red dot + magnifier....for the same money you can get a 1-4 variable scope with lighted reticle that will be easier to use.

Bottom line is....if you're not a rifle shooter, how do you know what will work for you? I know........ya gotta start somewhere. Why not start with a name brand with good resale value and work from there?

Good luck.
Jerry

PS.......Go to Brian Enos forums and look for 3 gun match announcements. Find a club in your area that runs USPSA 3 gun or 3 Gun Nation matches and go take a look at what the "gamers" are using.

[Gliden07]

I built mine with an Upper Kit I bought from Midway, and a Stripped Lower I purchased locally from a dealer. I put a Carry Handle/Sight on it until I could get a Scope for it (Ordered scope tonight). My rifle has the Standard Gas Block forward sight (That I have to change now due to the Scope thats on its way). I did some basic polishing of the trigger components, and installed lighter trigger spring kit (Cost $10) also installed a set screw in the pistol grip to get rid of 95% of the trigger take up. Trigger is excellent for a little time and the $12 I have in it!! It was very easy to put together following Directions on AR Buildernet.com. And it is very accurate for a Rifle that cost me around $650.00. In retrospect I would get the Lower Gas Block w/Picitinny rail for flip up sights and a SS Barrell 18-20" or Chrome Lined with a Full floated Barrell (projects for me in the future!!). 556/223 is the least expensive to shoot. Check out DPMS they make every style with just about every combination also Rock River and S&W M&P's. With your budget you should'nt have a problem getting what you want. If you go the root I did you could build an AWESOME AR with 1500 bucks and it was FUN!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

There are other options than AR's. I personally have only held one AR that I liked. It was A Primary Weapons Systems Carbine and the reason I liked it is because it weighed 6.5 lbs and was piston driven. It is also $1700!

I got a Kel-Tec SU16 CA instead. Which is a polymer framed semi auto gun that uses many AR accessories. The gun is essentially a cross between an AR an AK and a Mini 14. It has the best features of all of them . AR lock up and AR mags, AK piston system, and it has a Mini14 style stock which also hold two loaded 10 round mags.

The advise above to keep it simple applies here as well.

If you go here http://www.thektog.org/forum/f88/pictures-your-su-16-no-discussion-225300/ you can see pics of this gun in about every stock or modified configuration imaginable. including mine.

Mine has the optional M4 style fore-end, a 1.5"sling, a fore-end flashlite, and a Bushnell TRS25 red dot sight. The gun weighs 6.5lbs with two loaded mags in the buttstock.

Man sized target at 300 yards no problem! and it is so handy and quick I could jsut about shoot skeet with it! Carries like a dream.

Don't be blinded by the AR madness. There are excellent alternatives and this is one.

It is also completely legal in California, as it sits. AR's and AK's must be modified for this state.

Kel-Tec makes a bunch of accessories including an AR style pistol grip assembly which interchanges with the normal buttstock, so you can make it look like an AR.

Have a look. Once you pick a SU16 up you will buy it. Did I mention it folds in half?

Randy

[Moonie]

I had lots of experience with older military rifles, but none, zero with the Black Rifle. Then a couple years ago my uncle gave me a stripped lower receiver and said have fun learning about them. So literally started from scratch, did a bunch of research, and built a rifle ( they call these frankenrifles) from all different components. The lower is an Olympic, the fire control group is DPMS, the upper is RRA, the furniture is some gun show stuff.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/aviatortroy/th_66d19bfc.jpg[/URL][/IMG]




Anyway I had a ball building it and can't wait to do another.

My .02$ that mean nothing.... Since you say this is your first rifle, skip the vertical forearm, rail grips, collapsible stock, and all that other "tactiCOOL" stuff and go for a rifle that you can learn to shoot well. Stick to .223. Fixed buttstock, full length gas system, heavy barrel, and so on. I do like the flat top reciever for its flexibility, you can mount a detachable hand guard or go with some optics. Or whatever floats your boat.

They are fun.

Oh I had to edit this, I know that some guys cast for .223 but I don't. I ordered a coffee can of pulled surplus 55 gr bullets, think there was 5000 in the can, for about 85 bucks. So I know I can't cast cheaper than that.

If you are steadfast in wanting to cast for it, I would look at one of the 300 subsonic calibers like you had mentioned earlier.

I have to say I'm not crazy about shooting cast out of any direct impingement gas system gun like the AR. I assume you are aware that the gas gets diverted into the bolt carrier where it directly acts on the rear of the bolt to unlock it after pressure drops, then the gas is vented out the side of the bolt. Too close to my face for lead vapors to be wafting around.

You do realize there are more lead vapors from the primers than from cast boolits(about nil)

[Moonie]

Could you tell me where you got the parts for the one in 300BO? I am looking around and unless I find one I like very soon it looks like building is going to be the way to go.

Thanks

I got everything except the lower from midwayusa.com

[Tracy]

I recommend a basic 5.56 AR with a 16" barrel and carbine-length gas system, and an A1 or A2 upper receiver. That way you have a good set of irons that are more reliable than backup irons, and you can still use a scope via a handle mount. In fact, some handle mounts allow you to mount both a scope and red dot sight, co-witnessed which means you can look through the scope and use either its reticle or the red dot, or line up the iron sights through the slot in the mount. If something goes wrong with the scope you can remove one knurled nut and pull off the entire mount with scope and/or RD sight attached, and your irons are still there ready to go.

I like the carbine length gas system because it gives more port pressure for shooting reduced cast boolit loads, while also working fine for jacketed loads. If you can find a 1:12" twist barrel, that will extend the velocity that you can shoot a cast boolit before accuracy goes south. If you can't get 1:12", 1:9" is next best.

In every single thread you ever see about cast boolits in AR-15s, you will see some people claiming that the gas tube and bolt carrier will get plated with lead and lube deposits. Those are the people who have never tried it, but just "know" it won't work and feel a need to pass on this wisdom to you before you can make a horrible mistake that will scar you for life.
Meanwhile, those of us who actually shoot cast in ARs go on doing so, and for some inexplicable reason our gas tubes and bolt carriers never get the message that they are supposed to clog up. And there certainly aren't any lead vapors wafting about.