Anyone using Lee 9mm #356-120-TC?

[woody2]

I have a S&W 1911 9mm that has a very short throat. Have to seat the bullet to an OAL of 1.030 in order for it to chamber. Any longer and it hits the rifling and jams. I'm using a Lee #356-120-TC and don't want to seat it too deeply for fear that it will dangerously increase the pressure. What OAL are you using?

[williamwaco]

I have used it in my Kimber Stainless Steel Target.

Works great.

I use the longest OAL that will feed reliably in each handgun.

You should do the same.

My number might not work for you.


.

[MtGun44]

It is a great design, but William is exactly correct, you are setting the LOA to clear the
rifling in your gun, that is the way it is done. Why in the world would you care what LOA
I use or William uses? It has nothing to do with your gun(s) and your LOA, other than
a lot shorter than the published LOA may intrude on the powder combustion volume
and slightly raise the pressure. So if you are seating a good bit lower than the loading
manual recommends, you may need to back off a bit on the powder charge and work
back up, maybe not getting to "max" before you get to the intended velocity.

Bill

[woody2]

Bill, I'm fairly new to loading the 9mm cartridge and have read that it is a high pressure round so seating depth can be important. Deeper seating means reduced volume inside the case so how low on volume can I go without a pressure problem? I've been using 3.8 grs of Bullseye with a 125 gr RN bullet seated to an OAL of 1.125" in my other 9mm and that works fine in that gun but those rounds are too long for the new gun. I haven't been able to find a recommended minimum OAL for the new bullet so I'm looking for someone with experience that can help.

[RobsTV]

The following is not what I would recommend doing. It is numbers that my PC shows me, but does not mean it is correct or safe to use. This is only an example of how changing powder charge at different OAL "might" affect outcome.

According to QL:

The 3.8gr of Bullseye at OAL of 1.125 with that bullet (356-120-TC) has approx 21,264psi chamber pressure and 984fps in a 4" barrel. Case is 73% full.

The 3.8gr of Bullseye at OAL of 1.030 with that bullet has approx 33,737psi chamber pressure (warning:near max) and 1084fps. Case is 100.8% full.

Dropping charge down to 3.2gr of Bullseye, at OAL of 1.030 with that bullet has approx 22,929psi chamber pressure and 941fps. Case is 85% full.

Again, not tested, not suggesting you use these numbers. Start low and work your way up observing pressure signs.

[williamwaco]

Bill, I'm fairly new to loading the 9mm cartridge and have read that it is a high pressure round so seating depth can be important. Deeper seating means reduced volume inside the case so how low on volume can I go without a pressure problem? I've been using 3.8 grs of Bullseye with a 125 gr RN bullet seated to an OAL of 1.125" in my other 9mm and that works fine in that gun but those rounds are too long for the new gun. I haven't been able to find a recommended minimum OAL for the new bullet so I'm looking for someone with experience that can help.


One opinion:

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Forget about pressure for now.

Using dummy cartridges, find the maximum OAL that will feed reliably through your magazine then test it manually for feeding from the magazine into the chamber.

When you can manually rack five or six of them through the action and onto the floor with no jams it is time to worry about the powder charge.

Load five each of 3.0, 3.4, and 3.8 grains Bulls Eye.

Take them to the range in separate zip lock bags.

Odds are the 3.0gr will not cycle the action.

3.4gr will likely be a very nice well functioning practice load.

3.8gr will be approaching normal factory practice load.

At this point try 5 each going up in .2 grain increments.

Remember - this is important - You cannot judge high pressure by looking at the fired case.

If the ejection suddenly becomes more violent than you are accustomed to, you have passed Max.

You do not adjust pressure by adjusting seating depth. You determine the seating depth for reliable function then adjust pressure by working up the powder charge.

You are pretty much on your own with that bullet. I find MAXIMUM load recommendations from 4.0 to 4.9 gr BullsEye in different manuals
Regardless of the results of your testing, I personally would not exceed 4.5.







.

[fredj338]

Most TC designs will seat shorter. If you are using midrange loads, not much change is needed. Bullets are NOT plug & play, so if you are shooting a load already close to the top end, you have to start your load devel over & work it back up for the shorter OAL.

[fecmech]

Woody --Load data with oal's are bullet specific. If you are not using the exact bullet mentioned in the data the exact oal is meaningless. The classic example is your Lee 120TC and the Lyman 120 TC. Both bullets weigh about the same, have the same bearing surface but the lyman has a longer, pointier nose. If you load the Lee to Lyman specs half of the Lee bullet is out of the case! The Lyman bullet is .625" long with a bearing length of .280, the Lee is .563" long with a bearing length of .280 and both bullets weigh the same. The Lee bullet can be loaded to an oal .062" less than the Lyman and have essentially the same pressure IMO.

[MtGun44]

You are correct to be concerned about LOA and pressure, especially with a tiny case like
the 9mm. I apologize if I didn't emphasize this aspect enough.

So - for mechanical function, you MUST set the LOA to work in your gun. For PRESSURE, you
need to interpret the information from loading manuals. If you have a published safe load
with a LOA of 1.125", and you can get your hands on an example of the boolit/bullet used
in working up the data, you can find the location of the base with a bit of addition and
subtraction. LOA - Boolit length = distance from base of boolit to outside base of case

Compare YOUR boolit base location to the factory bullet base location, and if you really want
to do a bit more work, and get better information, subtract how thick the base of the case is.
This gives you the length of the powder chamber. If you are going to reduce this powder
chamber length (volume actually) by 10%, I would think it prudent to back off the powder
by at LEAST that percentage.

So - primarily the LOA is a mechanical function issue, but some consideration of the pressure
effects is necessary, too, especially if you have a much heavier boolit than is typically used
in the cartridge.

Bill

[woody2]

Thanks for the good, useful help. With the pressures Rob cited in mind I followed williamwacos suggestion and started with 3.0 grains of Bullseye. This did work the action but it felt very mild and the ejected brass popped up less than a foot above the firing plane. Increased it to 3.2 grains and it felt better but recoil was still very mild. Went to 3.4 and it felt like a reasonable light target load with brass ejected back and to the right about a foot. At 3.5 grains it felt like a satisfactory load with still mild recoil and slightly better ejection of brass.

At that point it was getting too dark to see the target area so I called it a day and proceeded to look at the barrel. Bad news. Lots of leading. S&W uses a 5 groove barrel so that makes it somewhat difficult to slug the barrel and get an accurate measurement of bore diameter. I had slugged and used a method suggested on the forum that indicated a diameter of about .3555 so I tried sizing to .3560. Bad choice. Tomorrow I’ll size some to .358, back off the powder charge to 3.0 grs, and start over. Meanwhile, thanks for your help, guys. It got me started on the right track.

fecmec - I don't have Lyman data but what you're saying makes sense.

mtgun - thanks for the last comment. I'll take some measurements tomorrow and see how it all compares.

[Wally]

Woody2 My Taurus 99AF gets a lot of leading from that load--same bullet and powder. I have sized to .357" and .358".....the barrel is at .3555". I surmise that the 9mm case has a taper in it that swages down the bullet base making it undersized. You see I also have a Ruger BHK with a 9mm cylinder---the load does not dead up in it. I believe the bullet is "fired formed" in the cylinder chamber and that solves the swaging problem.

Yes, I have used harder alloyed bullets in the Taurus---they just make the leading moire difficult to remove. Using a Taurus 101AF (.40 S & W) I get very little leading..so it has got to be the dimensions of a 9mm Luger cartridge case.

Many have given up uising cast in the 9mm..frankly I only use cast in it because it would be to costly to shoot it with out doing so. I just use an improvised Lewis Lead remover after so many shots.,..

[RobsTV]

Might find that sizing to .358 and using the $3.00 38 S&W case expansion plug (not 38spl) mentioned in last page of link below will cure the leading issues.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124464

[woody2]

Sized some with the .358 die and still get significant leading. Tried sizing, seating, pulling, and measuring a bullet as per your link, Rob. The bullet miked .3590 out of the sizer and .3585 after pulling so swaging down in the case doesn't appear to be the problem. The alloy is a mix of ww and old range lead so it isn't exceptionally hard and I'm shooting the same alloy in two other 9 mm's with zero leading so I don't think it is too hard.

I'm with you, Wally, on shooting cast because of the economics. Factory ammo costs nearly 5 times as much as my handloads so that isn't economically viable. I'm beginning to wonder if it is just a characteristic of this gun. Just curious, Wally - how many shots can you get off before cleaning? The lead isn't too difficult to remove if I use a piece copper Chore Boy to scrub the barrel. Takes maybe 5 minutes. It would be worth it if I can get off at least a box between cleaning/deleading.

[Wally]

Sized some with the .358 die and still get significant leading. Tried sizing, seating, pulling, and measuring a bullet as per your link, Rob. The bullet miked .3590 out of the sizer and .3585 after pulling so swaging down in the case doesn't appear to be the problem. The alloy is a mix of ww and old range lead so it isn't exceptionally hard and I'm shooting the same alloy in two other 9 mm's with zero leading so I don't think it is too hard.

I'm with you, Wally, on shooting cast because of the economics. Factory ammo costs nearly 5 times as much as my handloads so that isn't economically viable. I'm beginning to wonder if it is just a characteristic of this gun. Just curious, Wally - how many shots can you get off before cleaning? The lead isn't too difficult to remove if I use a piece copper Chore Boy to scrub the barrel. Takes maybe 5 minutes. It would be worth it if I can get off at least a box between cleaning/deleading.

Barrel leads up badly after ten shots, but it is easily removed with a brush or a brush/chore boy "tool". I tried using smaller powder charges--less velocity & pressure..makes no difference. From what I can tell the barrel is NOT rough--amazing that it leads up so much. I may consider lapping it...it cannot hurt.

[blikseme300]

Woody2,

What lube are you using? I scanned your post but did not see a mention of this.

I use the 120TC in all my 9's, sized to .358 in a Star using Tac#1 lube. No leading ever. I seat quite deep as my CZ's have a very short leades. The shoulder barely is out of the case. The charge is use is 4.2gn HP38 <- USE AT OWN RISK! Other 9's are BHP Stoeger Cougar, Sig Sauer and Beretta 92F.

I can send you some of my boolits if interested, PM me.

Bliksem

[woody2]

Yikes, only 10 rounds between cleanings. I don't care how easy it is to get the lead out, that's too often. My barrel looks fairly smooth too, so I really don't understand why its leading.

Bliksem - I'm using Lyman Super Moly lube. Same lube I use for the other 9's, two .45's, two .38's, and a .357, all with no leading. I also tried a beeswax based lube - don't remember whose - with the same result. Thanks for the offer of the bullets. If they are the Lee 356-120-TC's, that's what I have. If they are a different 120TC then I'm certainly interested. Also open to any other suggestions.

[sig2009]

Sold mine. Worthless. Would not cast larger than .356!

[MtGun44]

Woody -

Check out this sticky - might save you some work.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737

Bill

[woody2]

Thanks for the link, Bill. I basically did what is described - sizing, seating, measuring, etc. Interesting about the powder. I wouldn't have thought that it would make a big difference.

I went back to the beginning and started over. Drove 2 new slugs through the barrel and measured. Kinda hard to get a prercise measurement since it is a 5 groove barrel but if I set the mike to where the bullet just makes contact at the widest point when I rotate it the measurement is about .3565 so .357 or .358 should be ok. Right? Then I measured the diameter of a bullet sized with the .358 die. Miked at .3590. I'd think that it should be ok but is it too big? Should I try a .357 die or do you think it would be waste of money?

It like to stay with Bullseye if it can be made to work but I'll go to another powder if necessary.

[Shiloh]

Casts too small for use in mine.

Shiloh

[woody2]

Mine varies from .359 to .362 - not too round. The lubrisizer die takes care of that, though.

[blikseme300]

Seems that Lee may have been hit n miss with the size of the mold cavities. Typically their molds drop about 2thou over size in my experience. Those of you that had size trouble, where they 2 or 6 cavity? I have 2 6 cavity molds and both drop at .358 so I have no problem sizing to .357.


Bliksem
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[garym1a2]

mine go 1.055 in an aftermarket glock. I tend to use a slower powder WSF and only expermen a little with BE in 9mm. I here Unique is good here, I just do not measure small amounts of it well.

[sig2009]

Seems that Lee may have been hit n miss with the size of the mold cavities. Typically their molds drop about 2thou over size in my experience. Those of you that had size trouble, where they 2 or 6 cavity? I have 2 6 cavity molds and both drop at .358 so I have no problem sizing to .357.


Bliksem
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Mine was 6 cavity and would not cast larger than .356 no matter what lead combo I used.

[40Super]

Woody, I have the Lyman 120gr TC and a pile of them lubed up,sized to .357(I wish I could get them to .358,but they don't drop any bigger). They are cast with pure WW and are aged about 16-18bhn. I can send you 100 or so to give a try.

I would take a bore mop and saturate it with a fine metal polish and do a quick polishing of the barrel. I do that with all my barrels before shooting lead, even the aftermarket NM's. The better barrels I just do a mild scrub( just enough to get a shinny polish, some other factory barrels I have scrubbed a bit more due to the roughness. Before doing this I had some guns that always leaded no matter what I tried. After a good polishing, the leading went away, so I made it standard practice, just don't use any polish that is at all aggressive, only fine or ultra fine.

Also with your alloy, I would maybe not mix with range lead and water drop a bunch and try that to see if it helps. Other than some of my heavy hp's, I run my 9's a little harder than most others, works pretty good for me. I use AA#5,WSF, or SR7625 for my lead loads in the 9 and .40, never tried Bullseye, maybe a different powder is in order.

[woody2]

Thanks for the offer of the bullets, 40Super. I may take you up on it but I'll try polishing the bore first. What polish do you use? How much scrubbing is usually required? Am I looking for a mirror finish or just smoothing it out a little? It looks pretty smooth now but there are a few very minor marks in the grooves.

[40Super]

I have a couple polishes, Metal Brite, Heavy Metal(ya it's the name of it),and some Davies metal polish. You can go to a hardware store, automotive, or maybe home improvement ect.. and look for it. I think Mothers has a metal polish other than their Mag polish(for aluminum, although that will most likely work also). Some LGS or gun stores have Flitz polish,(another one I have used).
For the amount of work to do, I will saturate the bore mop(a cotton t-shirt through a patch tip will work ok) and basically scrub up and down the bore. I usually start with short 2inch sections of brisk back and forth till the whole thing is done. 10-20seconds per section. Inspect for dull or rough looking areas, rework any , then I'll run another fresh mop and polish(ultra fine this time if available) , and run it up and down the entire length 10-20 times, clean up real good and it should be a nice mirror by now. It doesn't need to be mirror, but it will be good just by smootening the high spots off that "grab" the lead. It is best to do as little as needed, you don't want to round off the rifling .

[MtGun44]

.357 or .358, try each one. I forget what lube you are using.

Good luck, this is absolutely doable, just that the 9mm can be a fussy one.

I lucked out and got it right the first try, but many have had troubles.

Bill

[woody2]

Thank's for the detailed instructions, 40Super. I'll pick up the polishes when I go into town and give it a try. Probably won't be for a day or two though. We live out in the boonies and a major storm rolled in this morning so I'm staying home and keeping the fire going. I'll post the results after I try it. I also found half a can of Unique that's been in the powder locker for about 20 years so I'll try that too if the polishing doesn't work. Thanks for all you help. It's greatly appreciated.

Bill - appreciate your help too. I've been loading for many years but mostly rifle with jacketed bullets and haven't had a lot of experience with leading. Guess I got lucky the first time with my other pistol loads 'cuz this is the first serious leading problem I've encountered. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Pete P]

I'm at 1.055 for my Kimber 9mm, which also has a short throat. I have my bullet size to 356 and they are cast out of straight wheel weights. My current load uses 4.0 grains of accurate arms number 2. If I reduced the charge it no longer cycles reliably.

[ipijohn]

Woody2,

What lube are you using? I scanned your post but did not see a mention of this.

I use the 120TC in all my 9's, sized to .358 in a Star using Tac#1 lube. No leading ever. I seat quite deep as my CZ's have a very short leades. The shoulder barely is out of the case. The charge is use is 4.2gn HP38 <- USE AT OWN RISK! Other 9's are BHP Stoeger Cougar, Sig Sauer and Beretta 92F.

I can send you some of my boolits if interested, PM me.

Bliksem


I do the same for all of my CZ's except I am shooting 4.0 grains of HP 38.

[MtGun44]

For FEEDING purposes, here is one way to set LOA with a different boolit shape from
factory ball.

HMM - pix are gone, so cannot show you the 120 TC set so the front corner is on the
contour of a ball round, so the contact point with the feed ramp will be in the same
location.

Bill

[woody2]

Ok, guys, I've done pretty much what you have recommended and the leading has improved but still not solved. Polishing the bore gave me a nice, shiny barrel. Once the lead is removed. It did help a lot, though. Thanks for the instructions, 40Super.

I'm ready to try a different powder. Unique has been mentioned so I picked up a pound yesterday. Recommended starting charges vary but seem to be somewhere around 4 grs or a little higher for a 120 gr boolit. Since I'm seating the bullet deeper than the manuals specify I'm thinking of starting at 3.6 grains, about a 10% reduction. What do you think? Is Unique one of those powders that develop very high pressures at reduced loads?

[Cherokee]

Don't know about Unique for cast in 9mm. I use HS6, 231, Power Pistol, AA5 with the Lee 356120TC, primarily in my XDm 5.25 9mm with some in my Caspian 1911. The bullet is cast from WW+tin, sized .356, using Lars CR lube and seated 1.055" OAL. I drive the loads @ 1000-1150 fps (depending upon which load) and find it good to clean the barrels after about 5-600 rounds but no leading, just some residue. I drive the same bullet in 38 Super to 1200-1300 with same results. Your start @ 3.6 gr Unique is consertive so try a few, then load up .2 gr and try again, etc. If you are not satisfied with Unique, try some HS6. Have fun experimenting, its part of the hobby.

[fcvan]

I cast my Lee 356-120 TC with range scrap which weighs 125 and measures .3585 ish. I size to .358, have lubed with home made loob and most recently Lars BAC. My standard load is 5 grains of Unique. I set my seating depth and crimp on a factory FMJ cartridge. This shoots really well through several 9mm pistols and a Marlin Camp Carbine. I did get a little leading in my Taurus 709 Slim that currently has about 500 rounds of cast. I noticed that with each hundred rounds the leading was less and less to the point it was almost non-existent. The bore seems to be 'seasoning' as it were. The last hundred rounds were shot with plain based gas checks sized at .358 over the same load. Groups had been consistently shrinking as more rounds were fired. The groups with the gas checks shrank by half again. The next trip to the range will be with plain based boolits to see how the weapon is breaking in. BTW, the 120TC really feeds well in every 9mm I have and exceptionally well through the 709 Slim. Frank

[soldierbilly1]

I size my 9 to 0.357 and I use a Lyman M die, it helps. Make sure those casts are age hardened, they will lead up if too young!
lotsa good advice for you here
billy boy

[MtGun44]

Unique is generally a good, linear powder so I don't think you will have
a problem. Clays, for instance, seems to spike pressures pretty quickly
in some cartidges. I like Clays' super clean burning and such, but I don't
ever push pressures with it.

Bill

[woody2]

More good info - thanks. Another question: the leading is within the first couple of inches past the chamber. I read on another thread that leading near the muzzle can be caused by insufficient lube. What causes leading near the chamber?

[40Super]

Boolits to small is far and away the #1 reason for leading the first inch of the bore.

[L1A1Rocker]

tagging to read later.