Made my own jackets - drawn

[cris]

Finally, after almost six month spent on this project I am reaching the end.
Finding jackets when you are not in the US is neither cheap nor really easy. You cannot simply order a bucket of J4 or Sierra and sit and wait for them, so one day I decided to attempt to produce my own.
Defining the benchmark was easy… J4 (anyone agrees??) --- this was the only easy part.
Then…
Find a buddy with a transfer press, find a diemaker that is also a passionate shooter, find a supplier willing to sell high grade drawing copper by the kg and not the ton, find another dozen of things and guys willing to help and, most of all, keep quality high and costs below the import price of a J4 jacket.
This was almost five months ago.
These days I am fine tuning the final annealing step. This morning I received a few annealed wannabe jackets from a newly acquired friend (the heat treater), and washed them in my tumbler.

The jackets are not perfect yet; the temperature was a little too high. When ejecting the bullet out of the point forming die the jacket does not stretch as the J4 does (I am looking for needle sharp points), it is a little too soft and the ejection pin flattens the tip. I am not that far from the end, hope that 30-50° less will make it.
But weight tolerance and dimensions are good. Some night this week the professional furnace will be available again, and we will sit in front of it, waiting for the final response.
We will test fire the first final jackets this week end, if the range won’t be too wet.

If accuracy will be as we hope, we will have our own source of jackets to play with, with no limitation about quantity.

Oh, I forgot…the jacket is .308 , 1150” long.

Here a pic of the last run in the tumbler

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8516/mantelliricotti003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/mantelliricotti003.jpg/)

[Hickory]

Beautiful

[tbj555]

Nice job , Where there is a will there is a way.

[PbHurler]

Those look great Cris. You're not in the U.S.?

What alloy & initial temper of copper are you using?

I ask because I've also begun the venture into jacket making (only drawing to .44 cal as of yet) I'm using Corbin dies on a Series 2 press. I'm currently using .030" pure copper strip (from Corbin) temper unknown. I am curious as to the availability, cost (Yeah, less than a ton quantities), and preferred initial temper of say 95/5 gilding metal strip.

Also, are you needing to anneal along the way during your draws?

[taminsong]

Cris,

Can I buy some jackets from you?

Please let me know.

[kd185]

nice work
where in the world are you?
just curious

[cris]

I am German, but am working in Italy for some time, so I made this in Italy.
We bought 95/5 copper form an italian company, temper and thickness unknow to me (thickes should be 0,8mm) because the guy who owns the transfer press ordered it, but I will find it out next time I'll visit him. In fact we used two different brands of strip. First time we bought 5kg just to test the dies. They worked, but the seller told us we had to wait at least 2 months for the next strip delivery, so we found another source and it worked too.
We use a linear transfer press, so we are able to make big runs if needed, and industrial machines are, in my opinion, better than a home workshop. Annealing is not needed during the draws, it is a question of speed of operation and tools geometry. With speed I mean the speed of the ram and the time elapsed between one operation and the other. With a transfer press, good strip and proper tool design you do not need annealing in between.
I anneal at the end because I make 7,5 ogive and want a very sharp meplat, closed to the maximum. Some jackets cracked, so annealing is necessary.
We just made one run, and produced 30.000 jackets. Enough material to define annealing, washing etc. in industrial equipment.
It will take some more runs to be sure of material quality and overall quality, but for a start we have enough jackets to supply a few guys aroud here.

I will sell a few, If someone is interested, just to cover the cost but not before I am sure that the jacket is good.

I calculated a final price of abou 0,15 each, Euros, not Dollars. Slightly higher than J4 in the US (what is the current price for .308 1,150?), but consider that in EU we have to import them and add 20% taxes.
And most of all, I made 30.000!!! J4 sells millions. I made a calculation of a lot of 2 million pieces and price would fall to 0,125. Another thing...I buy the machine hours, these are not free (the asistance and the first test was).

[PbHurler]

Thanks for the information. I'm only, for the time, looking for self-sufficiency. Your transfer press usage is an entirely different realm of operation! It looks like you're well on your way to producing some fine jackets. 30,000 initial run, wow.
I wish you all the best.

[BT Sniper]

Nice work. Great pics! Thanks for sharing. Look forward to hearing more about how they perfrom.

Good shooting and Swage on!

BT

[Thetraveler]

Nice work indeed. Do you have any pictures of your project and machinery used as you progressed? If you do I would love to see them.

[Smokin7mm]

I just got the latest price list from Berger on their J4's. They have skyrocketed this past year. The 30cal 1.150 length has a unit cost of .3044 USD. A bucket of 800 now runs 243.52 USD. The 7mm & 6.5mm that I use are even more!!

Bret

[BT Sniper]

That's the same price as buying Berger or Sierra Match bullets isn't it! Another form of CONTROL!!

Sad but true.

BT

[Smokin7mm]

That's the same price as buying Berger or Sierra Match bullets isn't it! Another form of CONTROL!!

Sad but true.

BT

Pretty close to Sierra MK but the berger bullets are in the 40.00/100 range. Yes it is sad but true.

Bret

[cris]

What?? 30cal 1.150 length at a unit cost of .3044 USD? Are you serious? But why? Copper didn't rise that much.
Well, good that I have my own now, at half that price :razz:

Anyway,
today I found the correct temperature to have the same feeling and reaction I have using J4s and with no problems or deformation when forming and ejecting.

Here a pic of the last run in the furnace and some formed 168 grainers.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/009xy.jpg/

The color of the jackets in not bright as the last ones, I had no access to controlled atmosphere and had to polish the jackets. Sadly I had no pickling solution, but the result is good (despite the color). Next wednesday the c.a. furnace will be available again and we will process a few thousand.
The jackets look duller, but it is because of the fluorescent light.

Now it's shooting time!!!

[fredj338]

Everything goes up as the US $$ goes down. Being in the EU, you know how all this works. Your jackets look Sehr Gut! Good luck w/ the project.

[Thetraveler]

Nice finished rounds Cris. Still love to see some pictures of your jacket production. :razz:

[Thetraveler]

Who's dies are those? nice boat tale

[BT Sniper]

YEP! AWESOME!

Keep it up.

BT

[cris]

Dies are made by Niemi

[rasto]

The best looking bullets I have ever seen.
Are the dies still avaiable?

[Awsar]

nice work glad to see our overseas friends making it happen. good luck and keep up the good work.

[M-Tecs]

Very nice. Too bad you are forced to go through that to get jackets. Hopefully we won’t need to do the same over here.

[cris]

The best looking bullets I have ever seen.
Are the dies still avaiable?

Talked to Niemi a couple of months ago, he retired and does not ship outside US anymore.

[cris]

Very nice. Too bad you are forced to go through that to get jackets. Hopefully we won’t need to do the same over here.

We have a few resellers here that buy in the US and sell in EU. For a thousand of .30 handmade 115 grainers the price is 495EUR, that is 630USD!!
You have to be rich or love guns too much to pay for that...or have no other choice and hope your wife doesn't notice.

[rasto]

Cris do not you know somebody else who is producing dies which performance as good as yours do?
By the way, I am from EU as well :-)

[cris]

Found today a nice way to polish the jackets, this will speed up things a lot. I do not have to wait for heat treating "favours" anymore. I can use my standard furnace.
Look at this (some bullets went into the cicle too).

The two jackets shown are before and after

http://imageshack.us/a/img31/5513/010alpw.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/010alpw.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/8325/mantela.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/mantela.jpg/)

The brighter jacket on the top pic has the same color as the others, it is just a matter of light.

[algunjunkie]

Those things are a thing of beauty. How did you clean them? Curious minds want to know.

[BT Sniper]

Stainless steel media? Rock tumbler?

Looks good. Keep it up!

BT

[cris]

Stainless steel media, rotary tumbler, a shot of soap for dishwashers and a pinch of citric acid. The acid makes the difference. Yesterday I tumbled for one hour without adding the powder and had almost no change. I added half a washer of citric (I know, washers are not a volume measure, but yesterday my wife seized all kitchen spoons that somehow landed in my hobby room) and had excellent results.

[algunjunkie]

I have one of those and just got done cleaning the 22 lr brass to get them ready for derimming. Never occurred to me that I could shine them up afterwards with it.

I really have to wake up more before I swage.

[Stonewall]

Cris you should make a post on this subject on Benchrest.com.
I am sure that many there would be interested in hearing about your match grade jackets etc.
And you never know who might read your post and have a few new ideas.

A good friend Al Mirdoch in Calgary made benchrest bullets for many years.
Many nights were spent in Al's shop talking and watching him make bullets.
I always regret not making a few thousand 6 mm bullets for myself with his stuff but I learned a lot.

There was many funny stories from this time.
We had winter matches in Calgary Alberta fired from plywood covered benches with two BIG heaters running .
The coldest day that I remember shooting my 6 PPC was -25 degrees F ..............
You fired thru a 2 ft square window -be carefull of mirage.

Shooters Choice would freeze if left on the cleaning bench too long.

Glenn

[cris]

I don’t know if benchrest.com would be the right place to talk about my project, yet. The jacket pros are active on that forum, and I am not sure about reactions.
Very few people swage here in Italy and most of them make 6mm bullets for bench rest. I know for sure that two guys swage .30 cal too, but they were not prone to share experience. In fact they tried to persuade me that swaging is too expensive, difficult etc. and I should give up the idea. Later I discovered that they sell their bullets and feared a competitor.

Maybe I will open a topic in BR but do not expect much helpful infos…

[Thetraveler]

Had a chance to shoot your new jackets yet? I would love to know how your 168gr bullets fair compared to the commercial ones :)

[cris]

The first shots went downrange, but the results were not astonishing. Honestly, I did not expect very much, because there were several flaws in my assembly routine. I put too much lube on the jackets (I hate stuck bullets in my PF die) and worked the amount of lube backwards, but the first to fly weren’t top even on the mic (and were the ones with too much lube). Diameter wasn’t too regular after core seating and ogive height suffered too. I used an excess of lube because I had some troubles while I sought after the correct annealing temperature. This data is set now (temperature), but the controlled atmosphere (CA) furnace has been busy with work for almost two weeks now. I made some test using a standard furnace and managed to remove all the scale from the outer surface, but did not find a good way to clean the inner yet, and this affects accuracy by far (in my opinion) . I have been waiting for the first run out of the CA furnace at the correct temperature for 10 days now. Today I cleaned ad pickled 30 Jackets manually (after annealing) and swaged them as I do with J4s. The final dimension was almost perfect, 2 microns difference on the diameter and clean ogives. Even the feeling while swaging was good, this time. There are still some oxidation spots inside the jacket, but I expect this run to perform better.

Shooting will have to wait till coming week end..

[63 Shiloh]

Wonderful work Cris, very impressive job mate.

If I am not mistaken, in your imageshack pics it looks as if you have cleaned up some 6.5x68 RWS cases?

Excellent caliber, my favourite jacketed shooting rifle is chambered in this. OT a little, however, do you have any load data to share for this calibre? Data is thin on the ground for this speed demon, I have been using AR 2213 sc (ADI Powder) under 100gn Barnes TTSX lit with a Fed 215M primer. Brass I am using is RWS, at USD 5.25 a case.

Mike

[cris]

Wonderful work Cris, very impressive job mate.

If I am not mistaken, in your imageshack pics it looks as if you have cleaned up some 6.5x68 RWS cases?

Excellent caliber, my favourite jacketed shooting rifle is chambered in this. OT a little, however, do you have any load data to share for this calibre? Data is thin on the ground for this speed demon, I have been using AR 2213 sc (ADI Powder) under 100gn Barnes TTSX lit with a Fed 215M primer. Brass I am using is RWS, at USD 5.25 a case.

Mike

Yes 6,5x68, RWS and some old HP cases. Haven't reloaded this caliber for almost 4 years now, I should look into my records, but first I have to find them... New RWS brass is 37,5 Euros/20 down here. These guys here gathered some data from reloading manuals, perhaps you might find something useful in it.
http://www.grurifrasca.net/Sito/Ricarica/fucili/6,5x68.html
Bullet weight is on top of each table.

[cris]

Second run on the target...
My pickling and washing routine is getting better every day. The last few days the results were very good. I swaged a small lot two days ago, measured the bullets on the ICC and rejected a few pieces. The other (25) flew all into the 10 of our standard hunting target at 300m (40mm in diameter). That’s about 0,46 MOA. Enough to win a match in the hunter class with a 308 Win. These jackets were not treated in a controlled atmosphere furnace. The CA jackets will be shot next week, I expect better consistency on all bullets.

[runfiverun]

[smiling here]
good on ya....
make a cup with your palm,that's a table spoon.
about 2mm deep is a teaspoon.

[remy]

Cris,would like to contact you for more info about your jackets,you should have a private message,Remy

[fredd3039]

Cris I sent you a pm. I need your help with a die question.

[Cane_man]

any pics of your draw dies? they look excellent :)

[cris]

Hello swagers,
after a long time building, rebuilding and fine tuning we finally made it.
We have a serious setup to produce jackets for swagers.
Our first good run is on 30,35-30,36mm long jackets, .308 cal. About 1,195" long. I use them for 175 grainers.

http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o754/mariorossi74/jackets%2012_308_zpsvo7jgqud.png (http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/mariorossi74/media/jackets%2012_308_zpsvo7jgqud.png.html)

http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o754/mariorossi74/175%201%20hpbt_zps947anl9p.png (http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/mariorossi74/media/175%201%20hpbt_zps947anl9p.png.html)

They are now available in EU.
We do not have a website yet, we are working on it.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Nice!

[clodhopper]

European shooters have reason to rejoice! Reading about price and avalibility in other parts of the world gives me respect for what burdens shooters in countries other than the US shoulder.

[runfiverun]

those are super nice looking jackets..... good job.

[starbits]

Beautiful!

[ambrogino 2013]

Fantastico .....sent PM

[kutil]

Nice work. On what the press is that done? Manurhin, EDB, Invernizzi, Samson, Fritz Werner, Bliss?

[cris]

Hello,
sorry for the late replies, but I don't look to often to forums.
The press is none of the above. We built it by ourselves. We have lots of expertise in deep drawing and coupled one expert ammo guy with a wonderful team of press experts to make machines for bullet production. The machine I make the jackets was not built to be sold, so we made the best and most precise system we were able to.
We studied Manurhin, Fritz Werner and a few other machines but, to be honest, those companies sell solutions for mass products...and we did not see any machines that were up to the latest press technology.
And besides technology...their price tags are way to expensive!!

[kutil]

Interesting. It's exentr or hydraulics? How can machine operations and how many pieces makes per minute. Pleased with the photo of your press.