Explain this to me on .44 Mag.

[wv109323]

I have a 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag. With a Micro-Groove barrel. I have had a frustrating time trying to get it to shoot my cast Boolits. My cast boolits are from a Lee 6 cavity 245 gn. GC mold. "As- Cast" they come out of the mold at .431-.432". I hand selected the bullets at .431 to .433 for some of the loads.I am using 9.0 gn. of Unique with a Winchester LP Primer. The barrel slugs at .430. I have tried LLA as a lube with both one coat or two coats of lube. I have used both the standard neck expander and the "Cowboy" expander in preparing loads for this rifle. ( .425 for standard and .428 for the Cowboy). My alloy is range scrap with some bar solder added. The alloy is fine with .38 Super 124 gn. velocities.
I have also sized the Boolits at .429 with Micro lube. Regardless of the combinations that I have tried the boolits are totally inaccurate. I mean at 15 yards the boolits are in a 20" circle with keyholing. From about 10 Yards the group was 8" with 3 boolits keyholed.
I have tried the boolits both with and without a gas check.
No problem with the rifle with jacketed bullets. With 18.5 gn of 2400 I shot less than an inch at 50 yards. (5 shot group) No problem with the rifle with a commercially cast 245 gn flat based bullet sized to .430. With this bullet 5 shots within an inch at 50. The load for the commercial cast was the exact same with 9.0 gn. of Unique.
What am I doing wrong?

[Wally]

I have a USRA 94 AE and find that no cast bullet load that I've assembled has been all that accurate, although I've not had the same groupings or keyholing that you've experienced. My Marlin .444 does much better with cast and has the same 1 in 38" twist as the .444. I've been told it's best to use bigger bullets (.431") at a near maximum velocity for best results. IE a 250 grain Kieith with 20~22 grains of 2400.

I dare say with the groove diameter at .430" and you having sized yours down to .429" is probably the cause of your problem. Why not pan lube and try some unsized and see what happens?

[BABore]

What are the three variables that changed from your commercial cast experience.

#1 Bullet diameter: Not likely an issue with micro as bigger is normally better here.

#2 Bullet alloy and hardness: Highly suspect as MG rifling doesn't bite into a bullet as well as conventional rifling.

#3 Lube: While commercial lube is not the best in the world, neither is Lee mule snot. I would rate the lube as a secondary here.

MG rifling has around 12 skinny, shallow grooves and the groove diameter is on the large side for a given caliber. It will thrive on bullets that are 0.002-0.003" over groove iameter and tends to prefer harder bullets. Bullets with nice wide driving bands are a plus. As mentioned above, lube is more of a secondary issue here but shouldn't be ignored. Solve the first issue, then experimant with better lubes to tweak the load. Another side issue is your rifle's 1 in 38 twist. The slow twist is more a problem with heavy for caliber bullets OR standard weight driven slow. This could be an issue here, but you you have to compare your commercial and home cast bullets for weight, length, and bearing surface to see if your over the line.

[longbow]

Your load is not hot.

The boolit diameter should be fine.

Your boolit is not too heavy (long) for the 1:38" twist.

I doubt lube would make that much difference.

This makes me think you may have a defective mould. Have you checked boolits for roundness with a micrometer?

Since commercial boolits work I have to suspect the mould.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[TCFAN]

If your Marlin shoots commercially cast 245 gn flat based bullet sized to .430 into 5 shots within an inch at 50 yards then I think maybe you have a problem with your Lee mold or your casting technique.
With my Marlin I had to go to a .434 dia. boolit and size it to .433 with BAC lube.Cast from WW and gas checked with home made aluminum checks over 10grs. of Unique it will stay around 1 inch at 50 yards. It won't do that good with boolits smaller than .433.......Terry

[6pt-sika]

I have a circa 1967 Marlin 336-44 in 44 MAG and it has Micro Groove 1-38 twist .

This thing gives me very good accuracy but all my bullets are typically aircooled wheelweights and run thru a .432 or .433 sizing die . Also ALL have GC's !

For 240 grainers I run about 25 grains of H110 , for 265 grainers I run 23 grains H110 and for 300 grainers I run 21 grains H110 . All as I said are gas checked home cast bullets . And I have no such problems as you mention .

I've come to the conclusion with the Micro groove 44 MAG and 444's it's kinda like what Earnhardt used to say about the track "Go HARD or go HOME" !

[Jeff82]

I hesitate to respond, since my experience is with a Marlin 1894C (0.357) with ballard rifling. But, for what it's worth:

1- I've had problems with accuracy and leading. My 357 cast bullets improved when I sized to 0.359 and probably wouldn't do badly at 0.360. Increasing the diameter of your bullets might help.

2- Tumble lubing never worked well for me. My accuracy greatly improved when I switched to using a lubesizer with commerical lubes.

3- When I used really hard bullets (20 bhn) accuracy really deteriorated and the shot placement was really erratic. My Marlin shoots best with 10 to 14 BHN bullets.

4- Microgroove Rifling: I don't know what to say about this as my rifling is ballard.

I could see how the first three items above taken together could give you really erratic and poor accuracy. I'b be surprized that that would make them tumble, especially at the ranges you mention.

Could be the mold. How are you seating your gas checks? Maybe it's something to do with that.

[seabreeze133]

My 1894s likes 432 bullets but my size dies are 430. Where do I get 432+?

Thanks

Don


I have a circa 1967 Marlin 336-44 in 44 MAG and it has Micro Groove 1-38 twist .

This thing gives me very good accuracy but all my bullets are typically aircooled wheelweights and run thru a .432 or .433 sizing die . Also ALL have GC's !

For 240 grainers I run about 25 grains of H110 , for 265 grainers I run 23 grains H110 and for 300 grainers I run 21 grains H110 . All as I said are gas checked home cast bullets . And I have no such problems as you mention .

I've come to the conclusion with the Micro groove 44 MAG and 444's it's kinda like what Earnhardt used to say about the track "Go HARD or go HOME" !

[Wally]

Lyman offers a .431" (I have one)..to get .432" you have to open it up or buy from someone that can make one for you.. Maybe Buckshot?

To "open up" you use a dowel and sandpaper and a drill..very easy to do.

[TCFAN]

I have a Lyman style die for my 450 lube sizer that is .4345 that Lathesmith made for me.I use this to lube and seat the gas check and then I size in a Lee push through that is .433. I opened it up from a .432 that came from Ranch Dog.........Terry

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Lyman offers a .431" (I have one)..to get .432" you have to open it up or buy from someone that can make one for you.. Maybe Buckshot?

To "open up" you use a dowel and sandpaper and a drill..very easy to do.

Buckshot made me one .432 for my 1894 works Great

[6pt-sika]

My 1894s likes 432 bullets but my size dies are 430. Where do I get 432+?

Thanks

Don

I ordered three dies from Buffalo Arms . For the 44/444 I got a .432" and a .433" and for the 45-70 I ordered a .461" .All three work very nicely , I think they were either $30 or $40 a piece .

[doctorggg]

+1 for Buckshot. He has made several dies for me.

[Marlin Junky]

I ordered three dies from Buffalo Arms . For the 44/444 I got a .432" and a .433" and for the 45-70 I ordered a .461" .All three work very nicely , I think they were either $30 or $40 a piece .

6pt,

Are you getting much use from the .433" die with respect to 444 loads? How's that working out for you? Are you pushing the envelop with heavy boolits?

Thanks,
MJ

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think it is your alloy. Range scrap is very unknown on its make-up. It might be quite hard, if it came from berms where commercially-cast boolits were shot, but if you got many 22 bullets, or cores from jacketed bullets mixed in, or muzzleloader balls or shotgun slugs/BBs/buckshot, you could have a very soft alloy. You just don't know... How much bar solder did you add? Too much tin (more tin than antimony in your alloy) can lead to bad results. Can you try again with a known alloy, like WWs?

[6pt-sika]

6pt,

Are you getting much use from the .433" die with respect to 444 loads? How's that working out for you? Are you pushing the envelop with heavy boolits?

Thanks,
MJ

I actually use the .433 almost exclusively for the 44/444 . I don't load plinking ammo , so they're all getting after it pretty well [smilie=w:

[WyrTwister]

I have a 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag. With a Micro-Groove barrel. I have had a frustrating time trying to get it to shoot my cast Boolits. My cast boolits are from a Lee 6 cavity 245 gn. GC mold. "As- Cast" they come out of the mold at .431-.432". I hand selected the bullets at .431 to .433 for some of the loads.I am using 9.0 gn. of Unique with a Winchester LP Primer. The barrel slugs at .430. I have tried LLA as a lube with both one coat or two coats of lube. I have used both the standard neck expander and the "Cowboy" expander in preparing loads for this rifle. ( .425 for standard and .428 for the Cowboy). My alloy is range scrap with some bar solder added. The alloy is fine with .38 Super 124 gn. velocities.
I have also sized the Boolits at .429 with Micro lube. Regardless of the combinations that I have tried the boolits are totally inaccurate. I mean at 15 yards the boolits are in a 20" circle with keyholing. From about 10 Yards the group was 8" with 3 boolits keyholed.
I have tried the boolits both with and without a gas check.
No problem with the rifle with jacketed bullets. With 18.5 gn of 2400 I shot less than an inch at 50 yards. (5 shot group) No problem with the rifle with a commercially cast 245 gn flat based bullet sized to .430. With this bullet 5 shots within an inch at 50. The load for the commercial cast was the exact same with 9.0 gn. of Unique.
What am I doing wrong?


I try to shoot the biggest home cast bullet I can , and still be able to feed , chamber and function the loaded ammo .

I drop my bullets HOT into a 5 gallon bucket of water .

I try to cast with the lead / mold as cold as I can & still get well filled good bullets .

Might try lapping the mold to a little larger diameter ?

The Lee bullet sizing dies can also be lapped larger .

I use Lee Liquid Alox + Johnson Paste Wax + paint thinner in about equal parts .

God bless
Wyr