Powder Coating Boolits [Archive] - Page 3

bstone5

03-03-2013, 12:02 AM

I was at the grocery store looking at aluminum foil for powder coating bullets.

Lately I have been coating the aluminum foil with a mixture of Lee lube and MEK.

I found some Reynolds aluminum foil that was non-stick.

I purchased the foil to give the material a try for powder coating bullets.

The powder coat will not stick to the foil after the powder coat is cured in the oven.

All of the bullets come off of the foil with out tearing the aluminum foil.

This foil worked very well for me in the methods I use to powder coat pistol bullets.

The bullets being coated are semi wad cutter 45 cal bevel base. The bullets were cast with Magna molds in a Magna caster machine.

bryonbush

03-03-2013, 12:27 AM

that orange is sweet! when my white runs out im going to get some of that!

ItZaLLgooD

03-03-2013, 07:05 PM

Oh yeah! I need some of that non-stick foil. It looks like the ticket. Thanks for the heads up.

popper

03-03-2013, 07:23 PM

The sizer take off the extra on the base?

bayjoe

03-03-2013, 07:31 PM

I have a Harbor Freight gun, and when you first pull the trigger it puffs out a whole bunch of coating. Am I doing something wrong or is there some technique to get good even flow?

Raven_Darkcloud

03-03-2013, 08:03 PM

bstone5, you are my hero. That saves me a lot of work. "Quick Robin, to the bat cave"

cylinderman

03-03-2013, 10:51 PM

I have been having no trouble putting on many coats with my lanolin/alcohol mix. Tried up to three coats !nd sized between each. Could not tell difference seems one good coat is enough. I have not had any peel yet.

xyankeeworkshop

03-03-2013, 11:43 PM

Finally getting around to posting pics of some of my PC exploits. This first one is of the latest jig using 9mm cases JB welded to a piece of aluminum perf.

63071

As I'd posted earlier, these really came out crisp and clean. Hopefully lubing the case mouths will help them snap free easier without breaking the jig . You can see the fresh gray JB Weld where I needed to stick a few cases back to the perf. You can also see where I used a case mouth tool to clean the PC off the case for the next batch. The grounding wire may end up being snipped off too.

Below is a pic of my first wire mesh jig to take a stab at 100% PC coverage. That turned out to be hit and miss as you can see drom some of the uncoated noses. The jig also proved to be a little weak at keeing the boolits inverted during handling. Some of the cells worked and some didn't. Snipping and bending the wire just so is a little finicky. But I think this approach may still have some merit for someone really wanting 100% coverage.

63074

I still have not had a chance to test the "band only" boolits at the range. The full coats have worked well once I figured out the proper powder load. But at this point, the "band only" coating process has proven to be a lot less hassle.

63073

popper

03-04-2013, 10:49 AM

xyankeeworkshop My band only 40SW shot very well. A slight leading where I didn't get complete coverage.
Bayjoe - I think that's normal, mine does the same. Try shaking the gun to loosen any clumps of powder and don't use a full canister of powder in the gun. I keep mine below the 'J' tube mouth and it gives a pretty even flow. Loaded up the 30-30 yesterday, doing 308 this morning, hope to get to try them this week.

ryokox3

03-04-2013, 12:33 PM

Bstone5, Thank you for that. I'll have to grab some tonight.

MJohnston

03-05-2013, 10:45 AM

I realized after typing my last entry that by lubing and checking the boolits after powder coating I wasnt really doing much usefull testing other than showing myself that the coating wouldnt come off. I have since been coating the 500 s&w boolits with powdercoat only from harbor freight , no gas check no lube starting at 800fps then 900 now 1000 fps and it only takes two passes with the bore snake to have a very shiny bore. Going to try 1100fps tomorrow. xyankeeworkshop I like your idea on the jig but how hard is it to separate the boolits from the cases after cooking?

xyankeeworkshop

03-05-2013, 11:32 AM

MJ,

I have to admit that the boolits were harder to snap off the jig than I had planned. I even managed to snap the JB Weld on half a dozen cases before I taped the jaws of a pair of pliers and used them to gently snap the boolits free. No more jig breakage after I did that. As noted above, I plan to swipe a little Alox or silicone spray on the case mouths next time to see if that helps get me to the point where I can simply invert the jig and have the boolits fall out.

Overall I like the direction this is going. I think the fall-out issue is solvable. How to clean layers of PC buildup off the jig will be the next problem. Hopefully the "spray it with flammables and burn it clean" method will work without ruining the jig.

xyankeeworkshop

03-05-2013, 11:37 AM

One more thing - bstone5's non-stick foil experiment has me thinking maybe I can drape some of that stuff over my jig and pierce the boolit noses thru and into the cases. That might aid in both getting the boolits out after coating, keeping the jig clean, and providing conductivity if it turns out to truly be needed.

popper

03-05-2013, 12:02 PM

I just scraped the case mouth with the flat end of a box knife blade to expose the metal. Doesn't take much time at all. If I can find the old plastic fuse puller pliers in the junk tool box I'll try that for snapping them off. Most of the ones with GC shanks did just fall off. Got to get some thinned LLA to try, just swipe a dab across the case mouth - PC doesn't stick to that stuff at all. I will also experiment with dipping the nose into thinned LLA, then inserting into case to see if that eliminates the ridge of PC on the nose and sticking problem.

xyankeeworkshop

03-05-2013, 01:45 PM

LLA on the noses of my boolits is precisely the reason why I started laboriously dip lubing them "grooves only" in the first place way back when. Years of swabbing all that junk out of my dies is one of the main things that led me to this thread about PC. I plan to keep as much of that stuff as I can off them now.

leeggen

03-05-2013, 02:35 PM

Has the PC caused any bad effects when remelting the lead for further casting of new bullets?
CD

xyankeeworkshop

03-05-2013, 02:45 PM

Remelted PC "jackets" smoke a little and smell a bit funky but they're fine. It's not like they'll pop like an FMJ.

Bad Water Bill

03-05-2013, 02:47 PM

From PCing fishing tackle the PC just burns off long before PB was melting.

All that was left was some ash and I think most of us know what to do with that.:)

VintageRifle

03-05-2013, 02:50 PM

I may have missed the information, but has there been any noticeable wear on the bores of the firearms that have had the PC bullets shot out of?

I work next door to a harbor freight and have a 20% off coupon that I could use on the powder coating gun.

Bad Water Bill

03-05-2013, 03:11 PM

I do not think you will EVER see any wear as PC seems to wear off of the keys that I have coated with GLOW IN THE DARK to help an OLD man find them when coming home late at night.:mrgreen:

ItZaLLgooD

03-05-2013, 08:14 PM

I would have a hard time believing that PC would be more abrasive on a steel bore than copper. Someone has posted in this thread that their velocities were higher with the PC opposed to jacketed. That leads me to believe that there is less friction in the barrel. Less friction = less wear??

My concern is if there are any nasties released into the air when firing PC'ed boolits. Outdoors wouldn't be a problem but extended indoor sessions, not sure.

xyankeeworkshop

03-05-2013, 10:34 PM

I doubt that burning PC is "nasty" in anything other than odor - which it is. Not any more than any of the other nasties floating in the air in an indoor range anyway.

MJohnston

03-06-2013, 07:22 PM

Don't know if velocity or pressure is the limiting factor but I had another good day at the range. In 500 S&W with lead hardness in the 10-12 range I upped it to 1153fps at 29700 psi according to quickload and got no leading. Thought I had some leading but 2 passes with a bore snake removed it so it must have been residue. Nice and shinny now! I like trail boss and unique but man are they dirty.

bryonbush

03-06-2013, 09:31 PM

I think you will all enjoy this:
Today i casted and PCd a bunch of 40's and while PCing, i dropped my pan on the ground. (luckly no bullets were on there) well there was some dirt on the pan and when i started to push down the aluminum foil, there were tiny raised spots where the dirt was. this got me thinking so i went to the sand pile, spread out some sand over the pan and pressed the foil down on it. this created hundreds of tiny bumps that the bullets could sit on. worked out great! the ammount of paint flange that i had was cut way down. worth a try for ya. kinda like putting salt on your napkin to keep your glass from sticking to it.

ItZaLLgooD

03-06-2013, 09:48 PM

It just gets better and better.

olaf455

03-06-2013, 09:51 PM

Good idea.

Ken73

03-07-2013, 12:57 AM

My concern is if there are any nasties released into the air when firing PC'ed boolits. Outdoors wouldn't be a problem but extended indoor sessions, not sure.

Only prior to curing (in the powder state) does PC have anything "bad" in it. There are some agents that can cause cancer, but once cured are inert. Firing them doesn't change that cured state either.

popper

03-07-2013, 01:34 AM

shot ~250 40SW PCd today, got a little leading due to incomplete coating and some shaving when seating. Knew I had some bad ones but shot em anyway. ~ 50 base coated SWC TL in 2". Some leading, maybe because they are FB and the edge doesn't get coated thick enough? ~30 TC coated nose, in 2" @ 7 yds. 6 flyers in the 6 ring, probably me, maybe shaved. Little disappointed with the leading but the accuracy stays good. Alloy is 1%Sb/Pb and a tinch of Cu, they are hard but I don't know the BHN. Whe I coat them they look like they are completely covered, but after cooking they have some light/bare spots. Have to really work on that.

dudits

03-07-2013, 10:20 AM

so i showed this thread to the female, and she is getting me a PC gun and oven so she can have pink boolits!!
gonna be awhile but i will be posting here, interested to see how far this can go.

27 pages took awhile to get through but was well worth it

452460

03-07-2013, 05:00 PM

This may have been suggested but a vision of how to get perfectly coated pills keeps popping into my head..

Create a grid of nails say finishing nails or pins and drill the bullet heads like you would hollow points but much smaller ( or big if HPs are your goal ) keeping the drilled holes in close tollerance with the pins then fit the bullets on the grid pins and carry on.

Anyone see possible issues with this method?

Bad Water Bill

03-07-2013, 05:21 PM

How are you going to control the consistency of the lead REMOVED?

On a 223-5 size boolit that is critical.

popper

03-07-2013, 05:45 PM

Got to shoot the 30-30 today with good results. Hadn't cleaned it since Thanksgiving. RD311170, PC'd, 13 PB,14 PB, 15 GC 2400, 170 CL for reference ( in that order). No leading I can see with a light. Accuracy was better than PB with my regular lube - these were coated good on the bases. 14 PB gave the best results but all were acceptable to me, no rear bag & gusty wind on the back.
6339063391vertical group with CL makes me think it was cleaning out any lube in the bbl, high shots were first, then settled down. Time to load up a bunch around 14 gr and try for best load. I did notice I need to seat a tinch deeper, had some jamming into the lands due to thickness of PC.

bayjoe

03-07-2013, 06:15 PM

popper
If those targets were shot at 100 yards that is pretty darn good starting out.

452460

03-07-2013, 06:52 PM

How are you going to control the consistency of the lead REMOVED?

On a 223-5 size boolit that is critical.

I would make up a jig for the drill press and set depth. should have also said I was thinking along the lines of the 45

fishindad

03-07-2013, 09:00 PM

Its amazing the stuff you can learn on this forum. Thanks for posting! I make my own jigs and coat them now. This is a really neat idea.

MJohnston

03-07-2013, 09:46 PM

Thanks for the nonstick aluminum foil idea! I had an idea I just tried out to add to that. I literally taped some bent fishing hooks to a pair of insulated pliers to see if this idea worked and it did. I used the points to hold the bullet and then sprayed them getting a full 360 degree coat. I sprayed into a cardboard box so I can recover all the overspray and hopefully reuse it. After spraying I carefully placed them on the nonstick aluminum foil lined pan The points are so small that when the powder melts and flows you cant tell where I held it. With the nonstick aluminum foil it only took a small twist and they come off. The only not so good is the bases are not coating so well. I will have to try another batch tomorrow with a heavier coat on the bases.
63396

bmiller

03-07-2013, 09:57 PM

I am sure you thought of this, but be careful not to get shocked by the gun. I got accidentally zapped by my harbor freight gun, it was worse that any electric fencer I have encountered!

MJohnston

03-07-2013, 10:08 PM

Good point, that was the reason for the insulating pliers. I started out hooking the ground to the pliers but it make no difference so I just left it off.

ItZaLLgooD

03-07-2013, 11:01 PM

I've gotten the gun a little to close to the boolits while spraying. The spark and crack made me realize I didn't want get zapped.

popper

03-08-2013, 11:22 AM

No, that was 50 yds. That range is a fancy one but not set up well for accuracy. They have the cheap plastic stock rests and a U cutout in the bench with no room for a rear bag. I take my own bags. You have to use one hand for a rear bag and try to wait for the 20 mph gust to stop before firing. I did clean the 336 this morning. 2 specks of lead, powder residue and a tinch of Cu on the patches. I'm guessing the 2400 plain base load was ~1800 fps so I'm satisfied with the PC in the 30-30. Interesting the GC shot 2" high, PB was 1" high, CL were right on, where the scope is sighted. POA is corners of diamond.

bmiller

03-08-2013, 07:17 PM

Popper, did you notice any more black residue with pc bullets than with standard bullets? The last time I shot mine the rifle's bore had a lot of residue. In all fairness, I shot conventionally lubed bullets as well.

ItZaLLgooD

03-10-2013, 10:37 AM

I was able to get out and do some testing yesterday. I am glad to report that the powder coating worked well in everything I tried.

I shot about 50 rnds through a Glock 40 with the stock barrel. They were Lee's 175 TL-SWC (more like a TC but whatever) over 5.3 grains of Unique. Kinda mild for a 40 but not to wimpy. I have had no issues shooting this combo with 45-45-10. The smoke from the lubed boolits vs. the PC'd is more dramatic. The 45-45-10 lubed rounds smoke like a chimney, not a mosquito in a 100 yard radius. :razz: The PC'd smoke a little, not bad at all. I blasted through a couple of magazines quickly to see if a hot barrel changed anything. Nope.

I also tried some PC'd boolits in my S+W model 66. I usually shoot the Lee TL-158-SWC over 5.3 grains of Unique lubed with 45-45-10 with no leading but tons of smoke. Same results with the 357 as the 40. No accuracy issues and reduced smoke. For fun I loaded up a few with 14.5 grains of H110. They have a little more zip than the Unique but zero fouling in the barrel.

I had my brother run some 45's through his Kimber 1911. They are Lee's TL-230-TC modified to drop a 200 grain boolit over 5.0 grains of Titegroup. I have shot several thousand of these lubed with the 45-45-10 though my Taurus PT 1911 (until my extractor broke a couple of weeks ago while testing the PC). Same results as all of the other PC attempts. His Kimber really liked this load. Nice tight groups.

Overall I do see more black residue in the barrel than I have in the past but nothing that a few passes with a brass brush doesn't take care of. Definitely easier to clean than the copper fouling you get after a couple hundred plated bullets. The exception was the 357's loaded wih H110. They actually cleaned out the residue left from the rounds shot with Unique.

The whole reason that I wanted to try this is that between my son,brother and myself we go through about 7000 rounds a year with USPSA shoots some of which are indoors. Smoke is a concern with indoor ranges. Money is also a concern. I have been shooting plated bullets through the Glock mostly beause of the smoke/safety concerns. I have heard arguments on both sides of the lead in a Glock barrel. My son (who is only 13) does most of his shooting with the Glock. I errored on the safe side and bought the plated stuff. I believe that PC eliminates any leading concerns and will allow me to feel confident about casting and PC'ing for the Glock safely. This will save me some cash in the process.

357 Sig is my next adventure. Any suggestions for a 9mm Lee mold suitable for 357Sig?

MJohnston

03-10-2013, 11:34 AM

I got to do more testing yesterday as well. Just wish I had better results to show for it. I tried to fire into milk jugs to test expansion and see how to powder coating held up. The boolit went through 7 jugs and went out the side to be never found again. The pic shows what I found in the dirt just under the grass. Wonder if the powder coating came off in the barrel or the dirt. After seeing the fracturing instead of deforming I tested again and they were about 14-15 hardness instead of 10 like I thought they were. I am also getting more residue in the barrel but it seems to clean out easy enough. I am going to round up some 5 gallon buckets next weekend and see if I can recover a good boolit. I chronorgaphed the rounds too just to make sure they were going about what I thought they should but I didn't think to load up some standard lubed ones to compare. Will do next weekend. 63576

jmorris

03-10-2013, 11:19 PM

Seems to be a lot of hate for such a simple idea but after reading all of the posts in this thread and gathering up the equipment to do what has been done, I think it could have promise.

With some more testing to make sure it viable for my needs, I am already thinking towards solutions for doing bulk. Maybe holding them in the traditional lube grove or like another post from both ends.

The photos below may get the point across. Only have one side in the photos because I only have two hands but either would be pretty quick to setup using the same idea to line up, hold and clamp as the linker I built for my 1919.

Edit to add something sharp and made of metal would replace the plastic fingers, just trying to show the concept before building anything.

jmorris

03-10-2013, 11:23 PM

I just used the HF device out of the box. For the folks that have done some testing with the unit, what nozzle do you use and what other suggestions do you have?

All I had to test were bullets that were cast a few years ago and I didn't do anything to them in the way of prep.

Advil

03-11-2013, 12:11 AM

Edit to add something sharp and made of metal would replace the plastic fingers, just trying to show the concept before building anything.

That gives me an idea. What if you made a loop of fine cable wire around a couple of bolts and strung a whole lot of boolits by the lube groove on the wire? You could even make the boolits turn for easier coating by turning a bolt and making the cable turn? Might be able to make a pretty long row of them that way in a small space for easier baking.

bmiller

03-11-2013, 06:21 AM

popper

03-11-2013, 10:25 AM

bmiller - The first rounds I fired had clean holes on the target and the holes got a dirtier ring as I fired more. Bore was clean of lead but tool several patches and 2 trips with Hoppe's to clean it out. The black junk is about like I get with unique and recluse lube. It's microgroove so even the 20 jacketed rounds didn't leave appreciable copper. The jacket load was 4895, the CBs used 2400. None of the necks were sooty so I assumed my 2400 load is good pressure. Yes, air pressure is most important.
Mjohnston - the right slug looks like a bore rider and everything except the nose came off. Are you applying heavy enough? I had leading from too light and poor coverage in 40SW. I'm using white powder and when done properly it is completely brilliant white. Otherwise it looks whispy white and speckled. What caliber and fps?

MJohnston

03-11-2013, 10:34 AM

That is what I was wondering is if I wasnt putting a heavy enough coating on . I put on enough to cover the lead but thats it. I wasnt shooting for any thickness. Is there any way to tell when you have it thick enough? Maybe always do 2 coats? Its 50 cal at 1060fps. I was thinking maybe the dirt wore it off but more likely to thin of a coat.

popper

03-11-2013, 11:03 AM

try some real heavy and see what the color is and compare with what you have done. Mine look like they are made of plastic, not coated.

jmorris

03-11-2013, 11:05 AM

JMorris, with my HF unit it seemed finding the right air pressure was more critical than the nozzle.

I was using 20 psi with the on gun valve set on its lowest setting.

bstone5

03-11-2013, 12:50 PM

The powder coat needs to thick and completely cover the lead or lead will be in the barrel.

Keeping the powder coat level in the container on the gun at least half full aids in getting a good coating.

Adjust the air pressure until a good cloud of powder comes out of the gun helps in getting a good coating.

I run the air pressure at the gun 30 psi to get a good cloud out of the gun.

As stated earlier the cast bullets should look like plastic with no light coating of powder being shown.

The thick cloud of powder in the air will give a good coating on the bullets, the thick or heavy cloud will result in less passes over
the bullets to properly coat the bullets.

Play with the air pressure to get the best cloud of powder coat coming out of the gun.

bstone5

03-11-2013, 05:11 PM

Over the weekend the 45 ACP bullets powder coated with the Reynolds Aluminum No-Stick foil were sized and soda can gas checks installed. The gas checks were also made at the same time.

The total time was 8 hours to make the gas checks, size and install the gas checks.

Some of the bases of the powder coated bullets need a little cleaning for the gas checks to fit to the bases of the bullets. The powder coating stuck out past the base on some of the bullets, I was hoping the bevel base would not require cleaning but about half of the bullets required a little clean up bu sanding the base of the bullets.

A total of just over 1000 bullets were completed in the 8 hour time period.

The powder coating looked good with very few thin spots.

I will load a few and try them out in a few weeks.

jmorris

03-11-2013, 07:29 PM

Didn't get very far when the kiddo woke up but here is the idea for the holders.

#18 brad nails with the head ground off stick in the aluminum jigs and 8-32 all thread clamps them together on the tip and base of the bullets, aligned in the wood jig.

Will add a strip of sheet metal to both sides of the wood to align the pins for clamping in the center then lift them out.

Figure laying a sheet of foil on a hunk of foam and poking the nails through then wrapping it around the rest if the fixture will make for easy clean up and you don't waist so much by having the pan full of powder.

My $20 oven is only 10" wide so that limits me to 15 wide but I can spread out & of the fixtures out at a time on the rack for 105 per pass.

dudits

03-12-2013, 04:43 AM

ok, i am feeling a bit lazy and dont really want to go through all 28 pages again right now.
what is the fastest a PC boolit has been pushed without problems?
and a PC boolit GC'd?

working on finding an oven so i can join the PC crowd here :)

popper

03-12-2013, 10:21 AM

jmorris - how about something like 2 hacksaw blades that ride in the lube groove, with small cutouts for spacing? Hinged on one end and clamped on the other. I'd thought of wire but it's not stiff enough. So you end up with a divit of PC in the lube groove, who cares. Nose and base get coated.

jmorris

03-12-2013, 10:56 AM

Holding them in the lube grove was what I was thinking with the photo 4 in the post above. Going to give the nail method a try first just because with that style fixture I could fit more in my oven, I know just get a bigger oven but I haven't even figured out if this is the stuff for me or not.

bstone5

03-12-2013, 10:57 AM

Dudits

Look Here

Post #498 Sheet 25

I have fired PC'd 308 win at 2400 fps with no problem. I use polyester TGIC powder.

Sheep Dog
Minutman
Boyscout
Contructionist
Patriot

ryokox3

03-12-2013, 04:56 PM

I did some on a non stick foil, not branded as release, just nonstick. The pc seemed to avoid the bases on both the boolit and the foil. Very odd, like there was an opposite charge on the foil pushing the pc away.

Anyone else experience this? On a similar note, is there a way to get a stronger static charge on the foil? I'm using the sears coating gun and it works fine but I was thinking a stronger charge on the foil/boolits might pull in some more pc and have less waste.

dudits

03-12-2013, 07:48 PM

thanks bstone5, much appreciated

corey012778

03-12-2013, 09:26 PM

went to test my custom made powder coating tray. basically, I made a mold that has rubber bumpers in the bottom to make indentations, and used plaster of paris, lined the out side with the non stick foil. did use a aluminum grid used on grills to help reinforce the plaster. don't think I need it.

63869

bryonbush

03-12-2013, 10:33 PM

On a similar note, is there a way to get a stronger static charge on the foil? I'm using the sears coating gun and it works fine but I was thinking a stronger charge on the foil/boolits might pull in some more pc and have less waste.

i was wondering the same thing. that craftsman PC gun is just junk. the handle is all cracked up and the powder holder either wont come off or cant close the lid without some serious force. some batches come out great while the others sometime suck. the only thing that i can think of is either the ground inst strong enough or the current into the powder isnt either.
Today i tried putting the 40's ontop of a 38 spc case with the bullet nose first and it came out ok. i think if the cases were secured better to a more solid base it would be better. but this goes back to the Static issue; with the cases and the bullets all resting ontop of a metal sheet with foil, it seemed to take forever and a lot of powder for them to be covered. it appears to me that the more bullets you have on a tray, the harder they are to coat; as in the charge to each bullet is way down when you compair 50 on a tray to 100.

ryokox3

03-12-2013, 11:52 PM

I have done well with the Craftsman pc gun, but I do think next time I get a really good coupon for HF I'll pick up theirs.

Now Somewhere I know some people asked about stringing the boolits by the lube groove. I did that and took some pics. These are .223 boolits, the toaster oven made it impossible to focus on them, but I hope you all get the idea. They look very good when first coated. No final results yet though as they are curing as I speak.

63879638806388163882

popper

03-13-2013, 10:23 AM

It's not the charge on the boolits but that they shadow each other if too close together. Got some hack saw blades last nite and played around with some CBs. Looks like it will work for regular groove pistol, not sure about rifle yet as the blades are pretty flimsy (china again). Basically 2 parallel blades bolted to wood spacer at each end. Rectangular to load CBs, then push to diamond shape to hold them, tighten wing nuts to secure. If it doesn't work well at least I have replacement blades, the one I have now is dull after 15 yrs.

xyankeeworkshop

03-13-2013, 01:31 PM

I've been finding that the quality of the PC coverage is more about the pre-heat than the charge. When I heat them at 400 deg for 10 minutes or so and then snatch the boolits out of the oven and get the powder on them quickly i get better results. Popper's right about the tray spacing as well. If they're bunched up too tight, you'll get shadows in your coverage.

popper

03-13-2013, 01:34 PM

OK it works. Need a stiffener on the blades.
6391463915
I moved it around quite a bit without dropping any. Set the CBs nose first on the plate and then tightened the jig up.

dudits

03-13-2013, 01:58 PM

double up the blades?
small piece of aluminum angle?

popper

03-13-2013, 02:07 PM

No, I'll just glue a 12 awg wire to them. Still have some tinkering to do. These are 180 gr 30-30 plain base I want to completely coat. I've started with 2400 but want to try 4895 or LeverE and see what the load limit is. These are sulfur toughened but after I shoot up the 5# I'll change to Cu toughened.

xyankeeworkshop

03-13-2013, 03:24 PM

How would a groove-holding jig made of aircraft cable wound around bolts mounted into a carrier plate to look like a really weird guitar work? You could turn the bolts to tighten the cables as needed. Would the cable droop at baking temperature?

popper

03-14-2013, 11:46 PM

Anyone run a long string of PC rifle over a crony? Wondering if my vertical stringing is me or the bore. Don't think you can get enough tension on a wire to hold.

doubledown

03-14-2013, 11:48 PM

I use the Craftsman gun, I find the best powder is red. I don't know why but of all the colors I have tried it gives the best coverage by far. I also use tin foil on my tray, when I pull them off the tinfoil I lightly run the base of the boolit in my chamfer/debur tool. It get rid of the fillet and make the base of the boolit nice and smooth still keeping the corners sharp. I am getting very good accuracy with my PC boolits, I PC all my big bore boolits and will never go back to lube again. Whoever thought of this should get the Nobel peace Prize!:-D

coleman

03-15-2013, 03:20 AM

Here is a place for differrent powders.
http://www.prismaticpowders.com/

bstone5

03-15-2013, 01:10 PM

Another place to purchase powder and powder coating guns and other equipment is
Powder Buy the Pound.

The gun I use for cast bullets and other items was purchased from this company. The gun is a little more expensive than Harbor Freight but the power supply voltage is adjustable and at higher values.

It looks like the gun part was made in China by the same people who make the Harbor Freight gun.

The gun works very well for what I powder coat.

http://www.powderbuythepound.com/

rcav8r

03-15-2013, 03:11 PM

A thought on holding the bullets with wire. Maybe if you can hold the wires together with small springs between each bullet? Not sure if finding such small springs is possible, and to buy them in bulk. I'm talking about putting the bullets between 2 parallel wires, of course.
Of course, you'd have to remove the PC between coating sessions. That's where a PC remover solution would come in handy.

dudits

03-15-2013, 05:24 PM

if you could get the wire idea tight enough it would work like a champ!
maybe wound piano wire with a bit of alox on them?

Bad Water Bill

03-15-2013, 05:37 PM

All of the piano wire I have handled seemed to be way to hard to bend around boolits and hold that shape.

I never tried to anneal it tho.

AND it is more expensive than binding wire.

rcav8r

03-16-2013, 02:35 PM

How about aircraft safety wire? usually .035 and .040 (and others) diameter, very bendable, should also fit in grooves just fine for wrapping in grooves.

The piano wire would be good for the spring solution. It's not really meant for tight bends, w/o annealing anyway.

dudits

03-16-2013, 11:07 PM

wasnt thinking of wrapping.
picture a jig setup like this

I----------------I
I----------------I

I----------------I
I----------------I
the boolits would go between the wires hanging by the lube groove.
was thinking the piano wire would hold alox better due to the winding?
any wire that would be strong enough to stretch taught enough to hold the weight of a mass of boolits would do the job.

bpratl

03-17-2013, 08:11 AM

I just ordered some retaining clips from McMasters which I plan to tig weld to a plate or hang on a wire. I am hoping to snap in the boolits by the lube groove and try to get complete PC coverage. I will test next week and report.

64341

myg30

03-17-2013, 09:05 AM

I started out at about 4:30am and with coffee and a muffin, refill, IM DONE !! ALL 29 pages. I'll bite, harbor freight is not to far from work. I'll stop in monday and check out the gun and powder coats. I seem to spend more time casting and reloading and less time shooting so it justs makes plain sense to add another process into the mix and powder coat !!
Great thread here and thanks to all for the time, testing and info posted. It may take some time to post a PC update as my job keeps me away some.

Mike

rcav8r

03-17-2013, 12:06 PM

Music wire would be ideal for hanging the bullets by the groove between 2 wires, BUT this is where you need something between the bullets to pull the wires together, hence my spring suggestion.
You could wrap safety or other soft, thin wire around the music wire between bullets, but that is extra work.
I was thinking if a spring could be used, then you could simply push the bullets in and out by slightly pulling the wires apart a little.

Thinking about this some more, how about soldering some wire between the 2 music wires at a longer distance apart, so that it looks like a ladder with long gaps between the rungs. To get the bullets in and out, you slightly expand the the wires in the middle between the 2 cross wires, insert a bullet, and slide it towards the ends until that row is full.
That way, you can rest the bare ends of the parallel wires on a block or something allowing unattached powder to fall in a tray for reuse. Then you can pick up the rack by the ends, put it in your oven for curing.

dudits

03-17-2013, 06:08 PM

ahhh i get what ya intend with the springs now!

what if ya took a few thin plate of aluminum and cut slits with a hacksaw. it would take a little longer then springs but should get the job done.

i am currently out of town, but i think i am going to give this a try when i get home.
as soon as i find an oven i will be PC'ing but would love to have a jig setup before i am ready to run.

popper

03-17-2013, 06:35 PM

The 2 hacksaw blades work like a really old coke machine, no need for tensioners or clips. 10" blade gives me 10 or more CBs.

xyankeeworkshop

03-18-2013, 08:33 AM

Quickie range report:

Finally got in some testing of my "band only" PC 9mm 125gr Lee tumble lubers through my Glock 17 yesterday. After a bore inspection at 50 and 100, I stretched the session out to 200 rounds. Good accuracy outside the meathead jerking the trigger, no keyholes , no feed problems, and only some easily-removed powder fouling in the bore. Most importantly: No leading.

Edubya

03-18-2013, 09:39 AM

xyankeeworkshop, any idea on velocity? If nothing else maybe you could share specifics of your load so that we can guesstimate the velocity. Curious minds want to know.

EW

popper

03-18-2013, 12:25 PM

Did 10 with the blade jig. Have to work on technique more but they did pretty good the first try. Some of the bands didn't get covered very well, my bad. I coated with the blades vertical and the CBs horizontal. The underside didn't get much powder. They dropped out of the jig great after cooking. I used 2 cycle oil on the edge of the blade and then a box knife blade to clean off the PC from the edge. The blades themselves didn't collect much PC. I'll try CBs vertical after lunch. Vertical worked much better. Not complete coverage but real close. 3 more batches worked great. Didn't use the oil anymore, just cleaned the blades between batches. Preheated last batch which worked a little better but I'm not sure it is worth the extra time. Divits are in the base lube groove, no problem, they are really small. Got ~ 80 shootable PCd PB 30-30 CBs & another 70 or so 40 SWC (I alternated to keep the oven busy). The small wood dowels I used for stiffners worked but I think that caused some of the shading. I'll cut those off and go back to the coat hanger wire I was going to use but was too lazy. I can get 4 of these rigs in the toaster oven at a time so 40-50 in 1/2 hr isn't bad. These are sulfer toughened, same as I shot before. When I change to the Cu toughened, the oven AC won't soften them any so I should get higher velocity, even from PB. Accuracy with these was ~ same as GC PCd. I did find that using the wire stripper/crimper pliers when they were still hot made removing from the 9mm case rig I used easy. Doesn't damage the coating but they almost just pull right out. I've coated ~ 1000, wasted a lot of powder learning and still have 1/3 jug left.

xyankeeworkshop

03-18-2013, 12:32 PM

Edubya,

My 9mm PC load is 125 Lee TL LRN sized to .357 and then powdercoated on the bands over 4.0 grains W231. I have not yet had a chance to run these over my buddy's chrony.

Edubya

03-18-2013, 04:45 PM

Edubya,

My 9mm PC load is 125 Lee TL LRN sized to .357 and then powdercoated on the bands over 4.0 grains W231. I have not yet had a chance to run these over my buddy's chrony.
According to Hodgdon, that should give us a little over 1,000 fps. Thanks.

EW

Joe Thanks

03-18-2013, 07:59 PM

Hello Boolit Casters. Ive been lurking fora while now, especially this tread, and after finally making my way through all previous 30 pages, i still have on question that i'm unclear about. So why not make it my first post on this great forum :)

I have a few dies but for the purpose of this conversation ill be asking about my LEE 401-145-swc. It molds to a diameter of .401. my lee push through sizer and luber sizes to that diameter as well. My question is this, surely the very thin layer added in the PC process changes its thickness by at least .001". I read that most of your that resize do it after you PC the CB. You also mention that many of you rarely tend to lose noticeable amounts of PC after the sizing. I gather by your "hammer tests" that the PC spreads and bends and contorts WITH the lead its coating, so when you resize after PCing, what is being shaved off? where does the lead go? I ask this because some people report the slick slippery finish after sizing. Are you molding undersized or something? Maybe someone working with 40S&W can chime in, as I dont see any molds close in diameter to .401.
(i obviously wouldnt want to mold to .401, then resize and negate the PC i just gave the boolit lol)
Thanks in advance,
Joe

ricklaut

03-18-2013, 10:08 PM

My wife doesn't like you guys! She says you're a bad influence...

We were at Harbor Freight over the weekend getting some stuff she needs for a woodworking project. While we were there, I "happened upon" their PC system & bought it (blaming it on you, of course). I just so happened to print two 20% off any single item coupons, so she got her stuff & I got mine. I've now done three small test batches with Lee 230gr TL RN. They're my first interest - want to test them out in my G21.

My first test was nose down through a piece of (way too thin) aluminum foil and down through holes I drilled in an old baking sheet. I drilled the holes just large enough to fit the nose, but not the bearing surface. No bueno... the thin foil stuck and tore off, leaving me with sharp PC coated aluminum flashing just ahead of the grooves.

The second test was through the same holes, minus the foil - worked pretty well and got the bearing surface & the base. To cover the parts that matter, this works, and I like that it's hard to tip the boolits over.

The third test was on the Reynolds non-stick heavy duty foil, sitting on the base. As reported by others in this thread, it worked fine, except I didn't get good coverage on a few that were near the sides of the pan.

I'll post up some pictures later - haven't shot them yet, but hope to this weekend.

I'm using a 4 slice toaster oven that I picked up at the Goodwill store. With either method, and with my .45 boolits, it looks like I can comfortably get 70 boolits at once. I'd like to get a larger oven - someday.

One safety lesson... I made my little spray booth out of a cardboard box, and the cloud of powder hung in the air pretty well. BUT - I got the nozzle a little close and created an arc - which lit the cloud of powder on fire for a couple of seconds. It flashed pretty good - not enough to light the cardboard box on fire, but enough to melt over-sprayed powder to the box! As with anything, be prepared! My instincts are still good - I had an escape path and before I'd given it much thought, I was well out of the way.

I haven't really told her what I learned in the swaging forum (or that I've got money out to BT for a set of his .224 dies). I may need a place to stay soon... but I'll be swimming in PC covered boolits and swaged .224 bullets!

ricklaut

03-18-2013, 10:16 PM

Joe Thanks

03-18-2013, 10:50 PM

Joe - Here's what I can tell you from my test a couple of moments ago. Before PC, my boolits drop at .454". After PC, they're running about .456". After PC, I ran then through the Lee sizer to get them down to .452. Before resizing (and with PC), the boolits measure .657" long. After resizing, they measure .659" long - so sizing is elongating them slightly, and as reported, the PC moves along with the lead, without cracking.
Perfect! Thanks :)

xyankeeworkshop

03-19-2013, 09:27 AM

ricklaut,

Glad you were able to outrun your little Fuel/Air Explosion.

That bring to light something that I need to ammend from my previous posts on powdercoating pre-heated boolits without needing to ground your holding jig/tray - I stand corrected! Ground that sucker! You may not need it for good coverage on a small tray of boolits, but it seems you definitely need it to lessen the possibility of creating an arc that will ignite your spray booth and also the meatware holding the PC gun.

Looks like we also need to, as a precaution, think about venting and filtering our diy booths to keep the powder/air ratio down just in case you do manage to throw an arc.

popper

03-19-2013, 02:28 PM

Cast 8# of 165401 50/50 WW & Pb with the Cu added this morning. Only had a couple culls. PC'd I should be able to max load these close to 1K fps. Got to go to the HW store and get more HS blades(~$10) . Gonna glue the blades at proper spacing to wood stringers (for .401) double up on the blades, but alternating the clean edge so I use fewer blades. Hang it vertical for coating but flat for cooking. Should be able to do 50 at a time in the oven. One of our machinists with a CNC should be able to make this out of a single sheet of steel.

dudits

03-19-2013, 09:40 PM

jothanks- welcome to the forum!!!

popper please post pics of the new design.
i will be attempting a few ideas when i get home "currently on a work/vacation"

Joe Thanks

03-20-2013, 08:43 AM

thanks dudits.

bstone5

03-20-2013, 02:13 PM

I have cast 44 Mag bullets and powder coated them.
The powder coated bullets shoot fine out of the revolver without any lead.
To push the bullets faster I have added the cola can gas check.
Theses bullets shoot very well and can be shot at higher velocity then the coated bullets without the gas check.

The base of the bullet when exposed to higher pressure without the gas check seem to shoot less accurate.
The base with just plain lead seems not to handle the increased pressure.

The cola can gas check addition to the powder coated bullet seems to work much better in the revolver.

64722

The gas check used is the same gas check I make for the 45 ACP, the 44 is .430 as apposed to the 45 at 452.

The extra metal in the gas check is reformed to fit the 44 as the bullet is pushed thru the Lee push thru sizing die to install the gas checks.

Simple process using an already made gas check.

I still need to clean the lube off of the bullets before loading in a case, using a little Imperial lube helps in installing the gas checks.

The bullets are sized once and again as the gas check is installed, the Imperial lube is used both times the bullets are pushed through the Lee sizing die.

popper

03-20-2013, 04:36 PM

bstone5 - what is your alloy that needs checks? I shoot 40SW, ~ same pressure PB without trouble. Maybe the cleaner base is giving the increase in accuracy? Is it a GC mould w/o GC that is inaccurate? Curious about results if you GC then PC. I did a test in 30-30 PB & GC, not sure I could tell the difference. As far as I can tell it is the alloy that limits, not the PC, up to ~2500 fps.

bstone5

03-20-2013, 06:34 PM

popper

The allow is 92% lead, 6 % anatomy, 2% tin, the lead came from Lead Products.

The bullet has a bevel base but not a gas check base.

The gas checks only help when I load up to the jacket pressures, at cast lead pressures I have in the past loaded without gas checks all worked fine.

I tried the gas checks to see if the accuracy would improve at higher pressures and it did improve.

The gas may be getting around the base at higher pressures, maybe ?

The cola can gas checks are easy to make and I always have some left over.

I also put the cola can gas checks on 40 S&W just to insure no lead at higher pressures.

I have always installed the gas checks after powder coating and sizing, just the way I do it.

dudits

03-20-2013, 11:08 PM

which chek maker do you use?

bstone5

03-20-2013, 11:16 PM

dudits

I made the check maker, all of the check makers I use were made on my lathe.

There is a PDF file in the gas check section made by Ed Smith that gives information on sizing the parts for making a check maker.

bstone5

popper

03-21-2013, 09:41 AM

Bstone5 - check my #533 post. Yes it's 30-30 1:10 but a PB PCd @ almost the same pressure as your 40 & 44. Alloy is ~ 1.5/1.5/97 AC due to PC HT. I shot 40 PCd @ j-word load with same accuracy. I think your alloy is high in antimony, harder than it needs to be. I wanted to know if accuracy is better PC the GC or leaving them bare. Guess I'll have to make my own comparison.

bstone5

03-21-2013, 10:53 AM

popper-The gas checks seem to improve the accuracy on all loads, the accuracy with the gas check improves most at higher pressure and velocity.

The gas checks take time to make and time to install.

I am looking into a way to apply the powder coat in a liquid form, the oven cured paint for sheet metal siding will be my first try.

We need a way to completely coat the bullet with powder coat material, with a complete coat the gas checks may not be required.

The material used by Bayou Bullets completely coats the bullets and is a baked on material.

The other thread on polyester coating gives a lot of details on the Super-Coat being imported from Australia by Bayou Bullets.

xyankeeworkshop

03-21-2013, 10:57 AM

What am I missing out on at handgun velocities by only coating the base and bands, but not the nose?

popper

03-21-2013, 12:48 PM

I don't think you are missing anything. I had trouble in the 40 and 30-30 with the divit on the nose causing feeding problems. 30-30 would have to double jack once in a while to get full into battery. 40 had a bit of trouble feeding from the mag on TC, the SWC wouldn't always go full into battery. Besides, they look really cool when fully coated. My hacksaw rig worked fine, easy to pull off, fast, completely coated. Next test in 40 is a max load for 165 TC which should get me to >1000 fps, no GC.
My comparison of the PB & GC showed ~ same accuracy. 2400 doesn't give HV but peak pressure is up there. Best accuracy I could get with normal lube PB was 19 gr H4895, same alloy. If I can get to 25 or so with the PB PC I'll be happy. So far my hottest accurate load is 31gr LeverE, GCd. Then off to 308 testing with 41 gr H4895.

victor3ranger

03-21-2013, 01:49 PM

Ok, I have looked on the HF and Northern websites and so far I can't find the stuff that is pictured on pg2 of this thread.

Does anyone have a link?

popper

03-21-2013, 02:21 PM

dudits - not quite finished, have to get more blades. Glued together now but I'll PC it on the edges for strength. Foil is to make contact with all the blades. Could use copper tape if I had anymore. I had some alum strips handy so deciced to use them instead of wood. I roughed up the surface and removed the PC from the blades with a dremel sander drum. Don't have a closeup camera but the uncoated area of the 30-30 is ~ 1/10 dia in the groove on each side. You can feel a slight ridge on the band that should disappear on sizing. A CNC or water jet cutter should be able to do a dozen of these in one operation, reducing machine time. I don't think you could cut it with a hacksaw and hold the correct tolerance. A stamping die could do it and make strengthening ridges at the same time but that's a lot of tooling cost. I'd like to have made it from plastic and attach metal strips like the old wooden rulers but I don't have a high temp plastic - polycarbonate or plexiglass won't take the 500F temp cycles.
6482964830

Edubya

03-21-2013, 03:38 PM

dudits - not quite finished, have to get more blades. Glued together now but I'll PC it on the edges for strength. Foil is to make contact with all the blades. Could use copper tape if I had anymore. I had some alum strips handy so deciced to use them instead of wood. I roughed up the surface and removed the PC from the blades with a dremel sander drum.

Popper, I'm with you on 90% of your plan. If I can 'splain this right maybe you can improve on what you have. You're working with a parallelogram. If you set your two "handles" at equal cant and set your pivot points at that slant then when you move the handles back to perpendicular the blades will open and drop the PCd boolits without effort. You would probably find that you need some form of a locking device to hold the cant so that it wouldn't open while handling them between the spray booth and oven.

EW

popper

03-21-2013, 04:12 PM

Edubya that was my first try. Too hard to handle and the pivot points got glued shut with the PC. Then I ground a loading hole between the 2 blades. Insert and slide down to proper position. Reverse to unload. Lube groove dia. specific but fits my moulds.

beretta.45

03-23-2013, 04:05 PM

So I've been reading this forum over the last week and decided to give it a try

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/jjreeftank/IMG_20130318_105608_719_zps8ca65a39.jpg

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/jjreeftank/IMG_20130323_240032_396_zps0ae8a44d.jpg

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb370/jjreeftank/IMG_20130323_243700_334_zps90c6ef7c.jpg

bayjoe

03-23-2013, 08:49 PM

Berretta.45
Nice job on the bullets

beretta.45

03-23-2013, 10:08 PM

Thanks, bayjoe going to be making more these worked out preaty good at the range.

ricklaut

03-25-2013, 10:38 PM

I don't recall this being covered already - apologies if it has.

I wanted to test some 9mm, but everything I had was already coated in Alox. I put them in a small container, covered them with mineral spirits and agitated the closed container for a few moments. The alox came right off, and they dried clean. These went right onto the non-stick foil and got powder coated. It worked marvelously...

On one batch, I managed to tip a few boolits over on their way to the oven. After uprighting them, I saw that my fingers smudged some of the powder off. Back to the PC booth - they covered well with another light coat & looked perfect after baking.

These boolits had previously been sized to .356; they came out of the oven at .359, so I sized them down again. Haven't shot any 9mm yet - .356 worked well in my gun previously, so I expect no issues with these.

One side benefit I hadn't considered before - I dropped a container of finished PC boolits on the floor. Had these been coated in Alox, they would have been a mess with dust & junk stuck to them. No problem with the PC coating - nothing for the dust to stick to.

bstone5

03-25-2013, 11:40 PM

ricklaut

Is there a company selling powder coated bullets in Los Vegas.

I heard somewhere a company from Europe had set up a business in Los Vegas powder coating bullets.

i will check to see if I can find the info somewhere in the puter.

ricklaut

03-26-2013, 12:07 AM

popper

03-26-2013, 01:02 PM

Dudits - here's my finished rig. Did 41 (401-165 TC FB) this morning, first try. Hanging vertical helps, but takes a bit of wrangling to get used to it. Got to elevate so I can shoot from below, culls were where I couldn't get a good shot with the PC gun. 1 fell out, 17 didn't have complete coverage on all the bands, 3 had some shading. 23 were great. I'll redo when I get to doing more. Think I'll use the red and black as it is easier to see uncovered areas. Hard to tell the difference between white and silver.
65445

Colorado CJ

03-26-2013, 01:55 PM

First post here.

I've been casting for a long time and have really been interested in this thread. I picked up a Harbor Freight powder coater yesturday and tried my hand at it. If these shoot as good as they look, I'll never go back to using lubes!

Thanks everyone for the information!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8592909174_6d6d5cc93e_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55229792@N03/8592909174/)
DSC01243 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55229792@N03/8592909174/) by Colorado CJ (http://www.flickr.com/people/55229792@N03/), on Flickr

Edubya

03-26-2013, 02:06 PM

Looking good!
Colorado, how about splaining your process. I have kinda held off because I didn't like the pink, yellow, etc.,,, colored boolits. Your black look great!

EW

popper

03-26-2013, 02:16 PM

Colorado, how about splaining your process - yes, give us any tricks you learned. So far they work great. HF has red, white & black that I've seen. Powder by the pound has all colors.

Colorado CJ

03-26-2013, 02:38 PM

Just the tricks I picked up by reading this thread so far. I am using the "non stick" aluminum foil. I am not coating the bases as I figured, FMJ bullets bases aren't covered either, so I am laying then base down on the foil.

I then just spray a nice even heavier coating, making sure I can't see any lead though the coating on the grease grooves. They bake at 400 degrees for 20 minutes.

I can do about 80 per tray with the VERY small toaster oven I am using right now. I need to look for a larger oven as I shoot A LOT ;).

The rifle bullets already had gas checks installed as I had already sized them. I was going to dip them in 45/45/10 but read this thread the other night and wanted to try my hand at it.

I am using the powder and powder coat gun from HF.

Edubya

03-26-2013, 02:57 PM

Colorado CJ, you make it sound too easy! Don't you know that this stuff is suppose to be as complex as rocket science?

EW

popper

03-26-2013, 04:00 PM

Does your oven have 2 racks? I'd like to use the foil & sand trick on my pistol but they are flat based moulds, not bevel & I want the edge coated. Accuracy wasn't great when just the bands were coated. Coating on mine adds ~ 2-3 thous.

Colorado CJ

03-26-2013, 04:08 PM

No, mine is just a single rack. I need to find a larger toaster oven.

I am using flat based bullets as well, they do have a VERY slight bevel. I am using 18 ga. sheet steel I cut down to fit in the oven, so I am getting good coverage right down to the base.

Bad Water Bill

03-26-2013, 05:49 PM

For some decent aluminum go to a thrift store and pickup a well used COOKIE pan. You can get 2-3 trays out of 1 sheet and the price of the beat up sheet generally is $1.00.

Cheaper than a hardware store every day.

bayjoe

03-26-2013, 10:37 PM

Welcome ColoradoCJ
Those bullets look really good.
Did you like the reynolds non stick tinfoil?
I coated mine and then put pulled bullets off the plate and put them on another sheet to cook. I found you don't have the bullets being baked to the tin foil.

Russel Nash

03-27-2013, 10:46 PM

Russel Nash

03-27-2013, 10:53 PM

I have fired PC'd 308 win at 2400 fps with no problem. I use polyester TGIC powder.

Thanks a bunch for posting your velocity data!

olaf455

03-27-2013, 10:58 PM

Waiting for the shooting range to thaw out, then I'll get you some more...lol...

Russel Nash

03-27-2013, 11:10 PM

Pardon the triple post, but I stumbled onto this particular thread from another forum.

How about an angle iron "picture frame", for lack of a better term.

The left side of the frame is drilled with 1/8" diameter holes say spaced .300" on center or even .25" on center. The right side is drilled with the same on center spacing, but with a 1/4" or 3/16" bit. The right side is for eyebolts and matching wingnuts. I have plenty of rebar tie'ing wire on hand. I have learned there is quite a bit of stretch with it. So it is best to have a pair of kleins in each hand. Pull about a 5 foot long piece off the spool and then using my six foot wingspan stretch the wire to get rid of the "slack". Feed the wire through the 1/8" diameter hole on the left, and twist it back on itself, kinda like this:

http://www.beadaroo.com/images/wirework/wirewrap.jpg

Then with the wingnuts barely threaded onto the ends of the eyebolts, feed the wire through the eye. Rinse, repeat, till you have something like this:

http://gfwsheep.com/soumak/loo2.jpeg

(that's a weaving frame, by the way)

Then stick your boolits between the wires, getting them hung up with the wires in the lube grooves. Then use the wingnuts to tighten in the eyebolts which will tension the wires even more.

Heck, the more I think about how the weaving frame up above zigs zags back and forth, that might actually be the way to go, because I think as you add boolits, it further tensions the wires, or at least the wires in the next row.

Nahhh....I am probably just overthinking this. :roll:

As you can tell, I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread just yet.

Russel Nash

03-27-2013, 11:28 PM

whoops! quadruple post.

Now that I think about my angle iron frame and rebar tie wire idea.... well, I have never powder coated anything....

I take it if the ground clamp is applied to the frame, then the frame would get coated every time, right?

What kind of temps are we talking about?

Could we use something non-conductive like wood to make the frame out of, that way the powder just drops into a pan or tarp or whatever???

Just hook the ground clamp to the wire and if it zig zags back and forth on the frame in one continuous piece all the more better.

bstone5

03-27-2013, 11:35 PM

The powder coat applied to the bullets I coat is usually thick.

I was just thinking we might be putting too much powder coat on the bullets.

The powder coat deflects to fit the rifling in the barrel.

Most of us have flattened at least one bullet to make sure the coating does not come of when the lead is smashed.

With the rifling groves being some where around .004 inches deep and the powder coat being flexible, I was just wondering how thick does the powder coat need to be for the one trip down the barrel.

Just thinking.

The liquid being used by Bayou Bullets is not thick and the paint material is diluted one to one with Acetone.

Just thinking on how to do more bullets faster.

Anyway the time is in the curing in the oven not the spraying of the powder coat.

Russel Nash

03-28-2013, 12:43 AM

If anyone has the secret of getting lead solder to work on aluminum please share it with us.

Sorry, I am way back on page 20, where the above quote ^^^ comes from.

That made me LOL!, for real, I did laugh out loud.

Back when I tinkered around with stained glass, there is a zinc came...yes, it is called "came" that the glass fits in, its got a channel just wide and deep enough to catch the glass panels. Anywhooo...my point being is if you wanted to, you could theoretically make a frame from the zinc came, add in some rows, then soder shell casings to it. then stick your bullets in upside into the case mouths.

EDIT: this is what zinc came looks like:

http://hgtv.sndimg.com/HGTV/2005/11/04/hclvr131_3a_lg.jpg

Obviously, you can soder it. For the larger stained glass panels I have done, I like framing the outside of the panel with the zinc came because it is so much stiffer than lead came. Lead came will want to slump after time. There is a way to add reinforcing bars vertically to a stained glass panel, but that disrupts the looks of the panel.

rcav8r

03-28-2013, 01:04 AM

Russel Nash

03-28-2013, 01:48 AM

Russel, PC temps are in the 400-450f range.

Your wire rack idea is good, very similar to my "wire ladder" idea. The challenge for your thinner wire is will it hold the weight of several bullets in each row w/o letting them drop through? If you put a few "rungs" across the wire, it might hold them better. Would the wire still be flexible enough to allow them to open up to put the bullet in?
It sound like there might be a lot of tension in your setup, with it going back and forth. How much expansion of the wire do you think you'll see when it heats up, even when it's prestretched?

Yeah, the fram will get some PC on it too, but it shouldn't be an issue. There are PC solvents out there.

Yeah, I read the thread from beginning to end, and saw your post. I'm nowhere near to being a metallurgist, so I don't know if 400 degrees Fahrenheit will like soften or anneal the wire, and let the boolits drop to the bottom of the oven. That would suck. But I think I have a solution, maybe. Use a wingnut backed up by a flat washer, and then a compression spring, something like this:

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa353/03SXTGUY/84626b10.jpg

Where the head of that bolt would actually be the eye. Just use two of those, one at the beginning of the wire, and one at the end, then just zig zag the wire back and forth across the frame, say with 1/4" bolts, like pegs, where the wire loops around.

The idea behind the compression spring is if the wire begins to soften because of the heat, the compression spring will keep the eyebolts in tension. That's theory anyway.

popper

03-28-2013, 09:58 AM

Problem with the wire, like string - you can't get enough tension to keep it from sagging. Old physics class problem. Had to put stiffeners on a HS blade to keep it from sagging. Also found that rifle CB that fits the throat may have problems extracting. RD311170RF fits my marlin fine, nose coated PC gets it stuck in the throat so I carry a brass rod to push out a round to unload. Seating deeper doesn't help. Need to rethink my alloy. Base coated leaves a ring in the nose that won't fit in the throat. Just things to keep in mind.

Russel Nash

03-28-2013, 01:18 PM

I can get single stranded tie wire pretty tight. When I double it up around something and chuck the loose ends into a drill, the result is strong enough to crush the corners of 2X4's when I attach the 2X4 to something.

@olaf, what barrel length are we talking about for your 2,400 fps .308 PC'ed boolit?

How does that compare to a traditional lubed cast boolit?

Are your PC'ed .308 boolits wearing gas checks?

EDIT: what weight boolit?

olaf455

03-28-2013, 03:25 PM

@olaf, what barrel length are we talking about for your 2,400 fps .308 PC'ed boolit?
16"

How does that compare to a traditional lubed cast boolit?
Slightly more fps with PC.

Are your PC'ed .308 boolits wearing gas checks?
Yes, installed gc's first, then powder coated.
170 gr. Lee flat nose.

popper

03-28-2013, 04:12 PM

Upped the load with the 401165 fully PC'd (~1000fps). Accuracy improved, 10 in 1", most touching. Practiced offhand then finished with another 10, same results. 100 total, maintained accuracy. Then a fellow let me shoot his HK 'seal' 45 with 230 factory. 1" all touching. Really nice gun.

joemoe

03-29-2013, 09:47 PM

Hi guys I'm new to casting boolits and I decided to give it a try after lurking around here. I was very interested in Powder coating as a way to reduce smoke and leading and i found this thread. Here's what I've been experimenting with lately. I use a metal rod cut to fit my oven from Home Depot to hang the boolits on Jumbo Paper Clips. Seems to work so far. However, there is a streak in the lube groove that is not painted. Hope this helps out someone. I haven't loaded these yet, a question I have is should I still pan lube these because the lube groove is not entirely covered?

6583065831

bayjoe

03-29-2013, 10:35 PM

Joemoe
I would run them as is. If the shoot and don't lead your golden. If they lead then lube them. If it was me and they were to lead, which is highly unlikely, I would look at my alloy also.
Just my observation but it doesn't look like you can bake very many at a time. I can get around 50 to 60 on my little cookie sheet.

joemoe

03-29-2013, 11:18 PM

I can get 66 in my small oven ... i can hang 2 per paper clip and 11 clips per bar ... my small oven only fits 3 bars :(.

bayjoe

03-29-2013, 11:41 PM

I think I am going to see if I can dig up some rods to hang paper clips on and give it a try.

Bad Water Bill

03-30-2013, 02:23 AM

When coating with the clips as shown how do you get the part of your boolit that is facing down P Cd?

Edubya

03-30-2013, 02:44 AM

[QUOTE=joemoe;
Those being HP, why not just run a screw through a piece of aluminum and set them on nose first. Don't need no hangers. Make a lazy suzan that rotates and get good coverage on all sides.

Shouldn't need lube or pc in the groove, grooves are not touching rifling. If I understand it correctly, the pc is taking all of the pressure and there is little contact with the lead at all.

EW

aaronraad

03-30-2013, 03:24 AM

Not sure why you guys and gals are trying to powder coat the front half of the ogive?

What's wrong with a lead point and coating the base completely?

Russel Nash

03-30-2013, 09:14 AM

Because a solid color boolit with professional looking results will get people talking at IDPA/USPSA matches.

popper

03-30-2013, 09:33 AM

I want PC on the ogive so I don't have feed ramp problems. I like the paper clip idea, cheap and throw away. The problem with the wire idea is having them roll together to the center. They don't lead if the groove isn't coated, after 100 my bbl had just 1 bump of lead at the chamber end, probably shaved some PC off when seating.

joemoe

03-30-2013, 09:38 AM

I do get some uneven coat on the bottom side of a few of them, but generally the part I care for (the base and the side walls around it) is all covered. However, now that you mentioned it I could find a way to raise the bars so that I can come in from the bottom too. Thx Bill, I'll have to try and see. Oh by the way, a warning "Don't sneeze when moving the bars", I use 2 needle nose pliers to grab the bars to place them in the oven, I let out one big sneeze when adjusting a bar in the oven ... boy what a mess.

joemoe

03-30-2013, 09:50 AM

Guys since we are baking these boolits as a process of curing the paint, can we also use this time in the oven to heat treat these boolits as well? It might be a dumb question since I'm new to this. But can we just bake them a bit longer and quench them when they come out? As is, I'm curing at 400 degrees for 30 mins.

joemoe

03-30-2013, 10:09 AM

I've been reusing the paper clips so far with no issues. Cheap enough to throw away when they stop working. For the bars, I covered them up with aluminium foil and change them when they seem to lose conductivity.

Russel Nash

03-30-2013, 05:10 PM

ACrowe25

03-30-2013, 05:21 PM

Russel check your near Salv. Army... Seen a bunch there today (looking for cupcake pans for lube making lol) for under $15.

olaf455

03-30-2013, 09:31 PM

I was looking at toaster ovens at wally world today.

Is it bad to get one that is convection? I see where there are little vents or slots inside and can see the fan blades.

Is that going to blow the powder off?

Connection should be good, I do not think it will blow the powder off. I will be using a convection oven myself.

Russel Nash

03-30-2013, 10:13 PM

Okay, thanks.

I was trying to get some idea of dimensions in case I wanted to make an angle iron frame with the wires like I previously posted about. http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/549F17F0-67D0-443C-B834-D72D83B680F0-586-000002D2A49C91CA_zps57e357dd.jpg

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/AF196728-88BE-4B28-A37A-A4D997E7170C-586-000002D2BF77D6F2_zps03501983.jpg

Russel Nash

03-30-2013, 10:17 PM

Some of the higher end toaster ovens have a digital display where you can punch in the temperature and set a countdown timer. The lower end toaster ovens, besides being smaller, were kind of vague about an actual for real temperature setting. Like it might have a setting for pop tarts and then another setting for frozen personal pizza.

bstone5

03-31-2013, 12:29 AM

I purchased a GE Counter Top Convection Oven at Wal-Mart.

I have coated over 8000 bullets in this oven, it cost somewhere around 70 to 80 dollars.

i clean the glass with a single edge raiser blade in a plastic holder from time to time and clean the wire support tray on a wire wheel from time to time.

The powder coat will get on the glass and the wire support tray no matter how careful you are in handling the aluminum foil covered plate with the coated bullets.

The oven has worked well for curing powder coated bullets.

By carefully stacking the bullets I can get a 13 x 13 arrangement of bullets on the plate and still have room to coat the bullets, each time results in 169 coated bullets.

I have an old electric kitchen oven I will try next after a fan is installed to stir the air a little in the oven.

DangerousDrummer

03-31-2013, 09:00 AM

My first small batch turned out perfect. I made a tray out of heavy sheet metal, drilled holes in a grid pattern on 1 " centers, staggering the rows and welded roofing nails in the holes. I then chucked my lyman case sizer in the lathe and drilled small holes in the points of the bullets creating mini hollow points. Placed the bullets point down on the nails and powder coated a small batch. Popped them in the toaster and twenty minutes later I got yellow bullets. I tried muzzleloader (REAL, rifling engraved at loading) and you can just barely see where the bullet was kissing the lands. I think this changes everything for bullet casters. No more gas checks, no more sabots for muzzleloaders, no more leading. Here are pictures from today's efforts..

In the oven
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pHPHYVLtE7o/UVeLLZrcY7I/AAAAAAAAASw/iaiHoYvEsvM/s400/2013-03-30%252019.22.02.jpg

Out of the oven (no aluminum foil used, and lifted off with no effort)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UFfQcgIF1SI/UVeLMMzD_VI/AAAAAAAAAS8/B7gaCWJMkUw/s400/2013-03-30%252019.39.30.jpg

Single bullet, if you look close you can see the rifling marks.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uxn8f_A7Dvc/UVeLW7ObQ9I/AAAAAAAAATI/hxV7psfk794/s400/2013-03-30%252019.47.22.jpg

The mini hollow points.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-A8vZBxEbD5w/UVeLZP0eObI/AAAAAAAAATQ/DaSwM-dyhR0/s400/2013-03-30%252019.48.41.jpg

dudits

03-31-2013, 12:55 PM

i have been waiting to find an old kitchen oven. i have the space out back in my glassbloring/bladesmithing shop so i am hoping now that the weather is warm ovens will start popping up.
the idea of no leading, higher velocity ammo is a great thing.

may have to go get a toaster oven from goodwill just to get started cause seeing all these results is making me jealous.

dudits

03-31-2013, 12:57 PM

russel nash- i bet you got some odd looks taking those pics in walmart of a toaster oven with money in it :)

Bad Water Bill

03-31-2013, 02:49 PM

A question I have not seen answered YET is will the P C coating allow more R P M before centrifugal force blows the boolit apart?

DangerousDrummer

03-31-2013, 07:40 PM

A question I have not seen answered YET is will the P C coating allow more R P M before centrifugal force blows the boolit apart?

While there is a lot to work out, I suspect that the centrifugal force issues will be worked out starting with larger calibers first, then smaller higher speed and twist rate calibers last. My 458 SOCOM shooting 300 gn to 405 gn bullets with 1 - 8 twist @ speeds < 1700 fps will not care much about a little imperfection in balance like a 22-250 @ close to 4000 fps. We might have to destroy a lot of these bullets testing different surface finishes to determine how well the coating adheres to the bullet surface, but i imagine just like regular painting, a rougher surface will be better than a smooth surface. Then there is the issue of even coating. I am certain that factory coating using computers and laser flow analysis would be a lot better than what we are doing, but independence from factory bullets is what I think this site is all about. Not only is powder coating being worked on here, but also on some other forums as well, so like any emerging tech that works the same way as open source software, there will be slow steady progress in spite of those that poo poo on our parade just like the Wright brothers were ridiculed. Sometimes there are ideas that are ahead of the technology, but then as technology improves, it catches up with the dreamers and becomes reality.

But I am not saying that you are poo pooing on the parade, but with 17 world patents in my name and products that have made the shelves of every major sporting goods outlet in the world, some of which are now collectors items, I understand the product cycle, and know that perserverance trumps intelligence in the long run. I do not give up easily, and I encourage others to do the same! Without dreamers this site would be name "ChunkedRocks.com".;-)

popper

03-31-2013, 11:22 PM

joemoe - I'm going to try a 45deg pvc elbow to see it that will get the powder going in a more upward direction, let gravity & static coat the tops. The HF gun doesn't seem to work well upside down.

bstone5

03-31-2013, 11:29 PM

I was able to obtain a small sample of polyester baking enamel used to coat aluminum extrusions. The material is used to coat door frames, window frames and metal office furniture and appliances.

The material was very difficult to obtain. There was a lot of conversation with a major paint manufacture before a sample could be obtained. The manufacture usually requires the applicator be certified before the coating will be sold. This material is not available to the general public.

The coating was applied with a Small HVLP Spray gun from Harbor Freight.

The coating is applied and cured at 350 degrees for 15 minutes.
The coating will not dry at room temperature, the coating stays wet until cured in the oven.

The pictures below show the coating on the bullets.

The bullets were sized and a bullet was smashed in the vice. The coating held up to the stress of sizing and the smash test shows the coating can be deformed to a large extreme with out cracking or coming off of the bullet.

The bullets were coated with out any conditioning or preparation to the cast lead bullet surface. The coating was applied to the lead surface as cast from the mold.

A total of 20 bullets were coated, they will be test fired in a few weeks.
The amount of material required to coat the 20 bullets was very small.

Only one coat was applied in this first test. The one coat covered the surfaces well without any edges showing thru the coating.

A second coat was applied to two bullets to see if a second coat was possible, the second coat cured fine with out any problems. The second does not seem to be required.

The bullets were sprayed on foil and moved to a second foil covered surface so the edges of the base would be free of any coating sticking out from the base.

Some more coating test will be required over the next few weeks. Still trying to get a sharp clean coating over the complete bullet surface.

Just trying other methods of applying a coating with properties similar to powder coating.

452460

03-31-2013, 11:53 PM

joemoe

03-31-2013, 11:56 PM

joemoe - I'm going to try a 45deg pvc elbow to see it that will get the powder going in a more upward direction, let gravity & static coat the tops. The HF gun doesn't seem to work well upside down.

I would love to see if it works out. Getting an even coat on the bottom seems to be an issue on a few boolits every batch for me.

Russel Nash

04-01-2013, 02:05 AM

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/BA4EDDA3-DF32-4A3B-853D-8E4E42A3D163-586-0000033480852344_zps1caf45ab.jpg

Just to give you an idea how deep that particular Oster toaster oven is.

Actually, when I took those first two pics, it was pretty desolate in that part of the store. It looked like everbody was stocking up on Easter related stuff.

A buddy of mine actually has a powder coat business. I haven't actually seen it in person myself. From his explanation, it sounded like there was an overhead rail or trolley system where I guess the stuff gets rolled into the oven and the door is closed, I guess, then the stuff gets baked on.

unfy

04-01-2013, 02:35 AM

Took a break from copper plating experiments to give this a go.

Went to HF, picked up their gun, a small 3 gallon air compressor, some powder, and then a cheap small toaster oven just as a starting point for the experimenting.

Slapped some ~180gr wheel weight .401's on some aluminum foil base down and had at it. Put under 6.0gr of Unique in 40s&w without gas checks, it did great. I chose jacketed style loads on purpose. Shot 19 or 20 of these as a quick test.

Just a quick pic showing post cure as well as a reject .320 buck ball and sprue from a sharpshooter usa mold:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-1a.jpg

Barrel prior:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-3-barrel-pre1.jpg

Barrel after:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-3-barrel-post1.jpg

Pen microscope makes it look worse than it is, I'd say these leaded less than MBC lead (those being driven at lighter loads even).

Since I liked how things looked, decided to make some more accessories. Picked up a lazy susan thrust bearing from hardware store ($5), and a couple 12" steel pizza sheets from walmart. Mounted things and now have a conductive 12 inch lazy susan.

Following that decided to try something to coat the bases rather than the noses. Cut up a $1.00 walmart steel cookie sheet:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-3tray.jpg

Here's some bullets in the tray on the lazy susan. I ground clamp to the base of the susan and then just to make sure of conductivity... an alligator clip between the top of the susan and the tray itself.

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-4tray.jpg

And, just a step back pic of the poor man's paint hood hehe

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-4hood.jpg

After curing and still in the tray:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-4a.jpg

Broken free and showing the non-uniform coverage / wavy lines / whatever:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-4b.jpg

And then loaded:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-4c.jpg

Haven't shot these yet... that's tomorrow.

PS - hi dangerousdrummer! o/

edit:

Have started to look into building a larger oven (aiming for 24x24 and 36 high or so)... plenty of threads / resources around the web for such a thing.

unfy

04-01-2013, 03:07 AM

BTW, to address some of the ideas with total surface coat stuff....

Having been fiddling with copper plating for a couple years now.... I will tell ya to skip the 'hanging from a thin wire wrapped in bullet groove'.

Scores of bullets on thin lil wires is a pain in the bottom to deal with, and if you ever thought that christmas hooks were a PITA to worth with... you aint seen nothing yet.

For copper plating, I've got something like this at the moment:

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/clippy-almost-there.jpg

The aluminum angle iron hangs on a support & power rod over the CuSO4 solution, held in place by a bolt & wing nut with the groove seen cut into the aluminum. Some wire runs down to some steel staple gun staples that are bent to hold the bullet in place and provide electrical contact. The clippy is close to workable for copper plating, but not quite for reasons that are OT to this thread.

Anyhoo... you could apply the powder coat with a setup similar to this, but moving it to an oven would be problematic. Wood burns, plastic melts, etc.

That said, an aluminum bar could be substituted for the plastic in the above pic. Not sure what to do about the wood of the paper clips.

popper

04-01-2013, 09:24 AM

Unfy - I shoot 40's like you have, base coated. They turned out the same as yours. Just have to watch feeding, had some that wouldn't go into full battery. Feed wrong. My first attempts gave results like your pic, last fully coated driven close to max jacket load was much better. Working on a different rig now, 2 parallel blades spaced to set the lube groove in one, the flat nose rests on the other. The toothed edge keeps them from rolling but will get smooth when coating so I'll probably grind divits in the smooth edge and go with it. I'll have to suspend it flat so I get spray from underneath, hence the 45 adapter. The nose on the HF gun is ~ 1 1/2" so I cut some sink drain pvc pipe @ ~ 45 and will duck tape it to the nose and see how that works. I'm going to PC the rig and then use the non-stick foil on one blade for static, see if I can get rid of the shading and better fill from the bottom. I may try grinding one in half to help, probably the nose one. Also need to PC the RCBS expander for my 40 cases, the extra 2-3 thous. should help with loading.
Bstone5 - I looked at some of the stuff you are tying, as you found out, it's hard to get. Unless it could be dipped I see the same 'fixture' problem like using the powder.

popper

04-01-2013, 02:06 PM

OK, double HS blade held them and they didn't roll around but bottom side shadowing is still a problem. Only half of the flat nose (401-165 TC) was coated, no ridge there so not a problem. Didn't grind any away, need to try this. Preheating may help also. Easy to place, move and remove. Used an alum spacer & bolt/nut at each end. Angled nossle worked fine, got a good upward blast. Couldn't get the powder to stick to the RCBS plug - have to think about that one. Guess I'll try preheating and dipping.
I got the wife a new one @ Lowes fo $40 or so and took her 20 yr old one.

unfy

04-01-2013, 05:09 PM

Yeah, I read the thread from beginning to end, and saw your post. I'm nowhere near to being a metallurgist, so I don't know if 400 degrees Fahrenheit will like soften or anneal the wire, and let the boolits drop to the bottom of the oven. That would suck. But I think I have a solution, maybe. Use a wingnut backed up by a flat washer, and then a compression spring, something like this:

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa353/03SXTGUY/84626b10.jpg

Where the head of that bolt would actually be the eye. Just use two of those, one at the beginning of the wire, and one at the end, then just zig zag the wire back and forth across the frame, say with 1/4" bolts, like pegs, where the wire loops around.

The idea behind the compression spring is if the wire begins to soften because of the heat, the compression spring will keep the eyebolts in tension. That's theory anyway.

Actually... take your spring loaded idea and instead have:

|B|--- --|?|SSSS|B|===

Where B = a metal bar, --- is a tack / nail / etc, S is a compression spring, and ? is some way of attaching the spring loaded nail/thumbtack/whatever to the spring, === being the bit of the spring guide rod that free floats out the other end.

If your guide rod is |===== shaped, a small folded over bit of metal in a C shape would possibly do.

This would get you to tack/nail points to press against the tip and nose of the boolit with a quick release mechanism for sanity.

Would have to make sure the tack/nail/brad you use is of decent length so that it doesn't shadow / interfere with the PC application.

I'll hit hardware store and eyeball this. Springs through local sources can be difficult to be had at 'sane' costs (we are talking 50-200 springs).... but can be had online at better prices. Barring a spring, if the bar is tapped, a bolt with an easy-enough-to-grip head would be a valid alternative (welding wingnuts sounds applicable)... you should only need 1-2 revolutions to apply enough force on the pins.

unfy

04-01-2013, 07:56 PM

Unfy - I shoot 40's like you have, base coated. They turned out the same as yours. Just have to watch feeding, had some that wouldn't go into full battery. Feed wrong.

Just got back from the range on base coated boolits with ring on ogive. 21 rounds, no issues feeding in the slightest. Accuracy was good, leading appears to be even less. Will confirm later tonight after get home and clean pistol (as well as take barrel pics).

No issues feeding thoughts: 180gr bullet's a bit bigger so possibly feeds better (i know my pistol don't like 140-145gr) ... my pistol might be less finicky than yours (sig p229 equinox has a very beefy recoil spring), or possibly due to loading it at higher charges ?

It's late, had to actually run to work to do some day-job stuff. Won't get to hardware store to ponder jig stuff until tomorrow. Tacks on a sheet with bars over it with 'moving tacks' seems like a valid proposition. Won't know until build it, naturally heh.... lots of ideas sound good but turn out impractical.

As far as saw blades / bars in |B| (B = bullet) formation grabbing the bullet grooves -- I considered such a thing for copper plating as well but it wasn't that practical in the few ways I attempted. Ya might have better luck though :). I also debated a:

\/\/\/\/
/\/\/\/\

Wire or something similar kinda thing. Getting things lined up was a pain... as was attempting it with stiff wire that wouldn't cant. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned working with sheets of metal that had this kinda of pattern already in it... but that's not a 'quick release' thing like you're building.

I don't see a way of avoiding a shadowing problem with the bar-in-lube-grooves system unless you do make use of your PVC elbow attachment and have two stages to coating (top and bottom).

For what it's worth, shadowing with the copper plating clothespin pic I did above would also be a bit of a concern, but possibly not near as much.... can easily get a 1/4 - 3/8" between the plastic bits and the bullet without too much hassle.

edit:

Actually.... if your saw blades or whatever provide an affirmative grip on the boolits.... can you stack them vertically so that the bearing surface is parallel with the cookie sheet (rather than perpindicular) ? IE: turn the whole contraption 90 degrees so that boolits are

|
[|>
|
[|>
|
[|>
|

Instead of:

--| |--| |--| |--| |--
\/ \/ \/ \/

???

I would think this would then help avoid shadowing problems (except maybe on the lowest boolit) ? Maybe ?

popper

04-01-2013, 10:58 PM

6615166152
Thinking as the nose is only partially coated I can turn them over and do the other side, as well as placing more on the rail. Results of my testing so far indicate the base edge needs to be coated, at least on flat based, to eliminate gas cutting. Made some measurements, I think I can not size the cases, size the CB after casting and then PC and keep a 0.003 NT on them,TC to insure they chamber OK. Mine is an XDm, 165 & 180 work the same. Out of 200 I got 4-5 jams, not really acceptable. The ones that jammed feed single loaded into full battery fine so I don't suspect the spring. It does have 5-6K rnds through it. I got some no-stick foil I can PC nose down but I'm trying to get a technique for 30-30 (3 groove) & 308 (1 groove). Rifle range is a long ways and only 2 days a week, pistol is nearby and open all the time. I'm using blades as I can't find a thin rod strong enough to prevent flexing.

Russel Nash

04-01-2013, 11:42 PM

Actually... take your spring loaded idea and instead have:

|B|--- --|?|SSSS|B|===

Where B = a metal bar, --- is a tack / nail / etc, S is a compression spring, and ? is some way of attaching the spring loaded nail/thumbtack/whatever to the spring, === being the bit of the spring guide rod that free floats out the other end.

If your guide rod is |===== shaped, a small folded over bit of metal in a C shape would possibly do.

This would get you to tack/nail points to press against the tip and nose of the boolit with a quick release mechanism for sanity.

Would have to make sure the tack/nail/brad you use is of decent length so that it doesn't shadow / interfere with the PC application.

I'll hit hardware store and eyeball this. Springs through local sources can be difficult to be had at 'sane' costs (we are talking 50-200 springs).... but can be had online at better prices. Barring a spring, if the bar is tapped, a bolt with an easy-enough-to-grip head would be a valid alternative (welding wingnuts sounds applicable)... you should only need 1-2 revolutions to apply enough force on the pins.

I'll do a mock up tomorrow using the spindles on my deck. I bought some 5/16" lag screws today, and some fresh, non-rusted tie wire. The smallest diameter boolit I cast now is a 147 grain 9mm. I figure it might drop at something like .358, so the groove diameter is probably something like .330, maybe. I haven't measured it yet.

Thanks for your advice. I'll be sure to post pics.

Russel Nash

04-01-2013, 11:50 PM

back when, I used to teach classes on how to put up trim/moulding. for like the little tiny trim return pieces, I would use something like this:

http://theapprenticeandthejourneyman.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Ulmia-Spring-Clamps-2-e1291673698212.jpg

while the glue set.

maybe this idea helps somebody.....or not. in one of my many woodworking and trim carpentry books, there was a tip where you could take the coil springs from a mattress or sofa, and cut them in sort of circular shape or crescent shape to make the same sort of thing.

use your homemade spring clamps to pinch the nose and base of the boolit, hang that from a rod, then powder coat them.

Russel Nash

04-01-2013, 11:56 PM

if you guys are gonna drill cookie/baking sheets, this is best thing I have found for drilling holes in sheet metal or plastic without producing a jagged edge or burr:

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_11761.jpg?01AD=3K15xZsu0HCIlVaHFLoRwynEqGs87 Ya78FEv2IC836F6viDkZIIY0-Q&01RI=5C34A006C30C91C&01NA=na

unfy

04-02-2013, 01:57 AM

Nice pun.

Step drill bits aint cheap ... but it's worth nothing. If I more slowly stepped up hole sizes while drilling it would prolly work a lot better. Much like drilling holes in AK flats / receivers etc....

Cleaned barrel. Maybe a half dozen tiny smaller than ball point pin point flakes.

So, from 20 rounds of nose & sidewall coat to 20 rounds of base coat... base coating does better at reducing leading. Prolly 1/20th of the leading (which already wasn't really much).

Colorado CJ

04-02-2013, 12:55 PM

I powder coated and loaded some Lee 358 105 SWC bullets for my 9mm. Going to try to get to the range this week to see how they work.

I really like how they look and how easy they are to load compared to the LLA coated bullets. A HUGE plus is that they feed through my Hornady bullet feeder VERY well, just like a jacketed bullet. So no more wiggling the feed tube to get the bullets to slide down like I had to do with the LLA coated lead bullets.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/speedwing/8613009189_026f9ecbf8_b_zpsfed0c897.jpg

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 02:51 PM

^^^ have you ever tried tumbling your LLA loaded rounds in mica... Or is it corn starch?

popper

04-02-2013, 02:53 PM

And the mag stays cleaner too. Other than the task of coating, I've not found anything wrong with them.

Colorado CJ

04-02-2013, 03:00 PM

^^^ have you ever tried tumbling your LLA loaded rounds in mica... Or is it corn starch?

Yeah, I use mica after the 45/45/10 dries. I still don't like it and they don't work well in the bullet feeder. I MUCH prefer working with these powder coated bullets!

Colorado CJ

04-02-2013, 03:02 PM

And the mag stays cleaner too. Other than the task of coating, I've not found anything wrong with them.

Good to hear. As you said, it takes a little while to coat, but if they don't lead, I can't see a downside.

I'm going to probably buy a larger two rack toaster oven so I can bake more bullets at a shot.

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 04:57 PM

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 05:19 PM

Here's another pic:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/DB16279F-71CD-4472-998D-D4AEF0B56B38-138-000001955B35F859_zpsbaa814a3.jpg

2wheelDuke

04-02-2013, 05:24 PM

Bad Water Bill

04-02-2013, 05:33 PM

Russel Nash

Now please show how you got that railing into your oven.:bigsmyl2:

Patricklaw

04-02-2013, 05:44 PM

Russel Nash

Now please show how you got that railing into your oven.:bigsmyl2:

Weed burner. HAHAHA

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 06:08 PM

Ha! Ha! I knew that was coming.

MJohnston

04-02-2013, 08:31 PM

2wheelDuke, Some of mine were doing that when I found out my oven was very slow getting up to temp and was 100 degrees off on the temp. If you have a casting thermometer or oven thermometer check your temp and cure time. Now that I have the temp right I've worked up to 1550fps on a 440 grain boolit in the s&w 500 no check no lube and no leading. Going to push it to 1650 next when I go to the range.

unfy

04-02-2013, 08:34 PM

I tried coating some boolits today. I sized some after they cooled, and the powdercoat was wiped from the bearing surface. I'm not sure if it needs longer to cure or if it was just not applied thick enough.

I've got other that look pretty good.

I had mine sitting base down on a piece of sheet metal wrapped in the Reynolds no stick foil.

20min cure at 400F (or, actually, follow the cure times that are listed on the powder container, but 400F/20min is most common).

I've been applying what I think is a liberal PC on the lead.

I start with clean lead prior to PC process. Clean up for me is only throwing the boolits in a 'safe' plastic container with a bunch of acetone and swirling / shaking it for a while... then making sure they are dry before doing the PC (a towel / paper towel and then air drying for 10min or so).

Russel Nash: looks good, now i'd like to see that get into your oven like others hehehe :D

snakebit77

04-02-2013, 08:42 PM

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 08:42 PM

well... I did mention that I have a buddy who owns his own powder coating business.

Colorado CJ

04-02-2013, 08:47 PM

Just got back from the range. I shot a little over 100 powder coated bullets through the M&P. Accuracy was great and there was VERY LITTLE SMOKE. About as much smoke as when I shoot jacketed bullets.

I took the barrel out and there was only really powder residue in the barrel, no leading at all.

Here is the barrel after shooting. Sorry for the bad photo, it's hard to get the depth of field with this type of shot.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/speedwing/Barrel-100rnds-powder-coat-bullets_zpsbd64fb24.jpg

It took only one pass with a bore snake and the barrel is perfectly clean and shiny. Here is the bore after 1 pass of the bore snake.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/speedwing/Barrel-100rnds-powder-coat-bullets-clean_zpse6a23a74.jpg

I'll have to do more testing, but so far powder coating seems like it is going to work GREAT for lead bullets. No more smelly, messy lubes and no more smoke. Most importantly NO MORE LEADED BARRELS!! http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_smartass.gif

Can't wait to load up some 155gr 300 BLK rounds to test out!

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 08:48 PM

I stumbled across this PC thread while looking into cast 300BLK info. Has anyone had good results casting and then PC the 300 and if so could you please share specifics on mold model used and sizing info? Thanks in advance.

That depends.... Are you wanting to shoot a lighter weight like a 130 grainer supersonically, or a 220 grainer subsonically through a suppressor?

I am from Illinois, where we can't the fun NFA stuff so .300 Blackou never really appealed to me. I' d be curious what if powder coating gunk gets stuck to the insides of a suppressor.

freebullet

04-02-2013, 09:01 PM

I prefer to shoot boolits vs. Powder coating them. There is always something interesting to read on here.

snakebit77

04-02-2013, 09:02 PM

Sorry that's an important detail I left out. I'm mainly interested in loading the heavier pills with the goal of eventually buying a can so I'm thinking a GC would not be advisable correct?

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 09:31 PM

My guess is that by subsonic through a muzzle can that means its velocity when it exits will be less than 1,000 fps. I am by no means a rifle boolit caster, but sounds to me like at that slow of a velocity a gas check wouldn't be needed.

Russel Nash

04-02-2013, 09:33 PM

On a different note... Man! I don't know what it is, but the theme song for the James Bond movies keeps running through my head. :)

unfy

04-03-2013, 12:34 AM

Just got back from the range. I shot a little over 100 powder coated bullets through the M&P. Accuracy was great and there was VERY LITTLE SMOKE. About as much smoke as when I shoot jacketed bullets.

Colorado CJ: was this a 'nose coat' or a 'base coat' or a 'full coat' ?

I've had similar luck with my sig 40s&w so far. I've given 20 PC boolits to a friend to load up and shoot (he'll get back to me next week).

As far as smokiness, it seemed par with me... but I'm running Unique through my loads at the moment (lots of it to spare) .. and Unique's fairly smokey anyway.

Russel Nash

04-03-2013, 01:13 AM

Winchester Super Target (WST) or Solo1000 are supposedly the two least smokey powders with regular cast boolits.

unfy

04-03-2013, 04:53 AM

An example of what in the world I was talking about.... this contraption was built with a spring simply because I don't feel like drilling a hole at the moment for tapping. In the morning.

Concerning this particular setup.. the hole drilled and the fact that it's a threaded bolt... doesn't really keep the 'needle' aligned that great. how important keeping deflection to a minimum is.... i dunno. but anyhoo.

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-needle1.jpg

Finding a cheap spring source, finding a way to keep it aligned better, i dunno. It might have possibilities.

a 3 sided square (or full square) bit of aluminum / steel.... with holes drilled straight through would keep the spring pin aligned nicer as far as i know... and then replace the bolt with a nail or metal rod or whatever...

moving along... :)

ryokox3

04-03-2013, 10:24 AM

WOO-HOO!

Looks like my proof of concept mock up using my deck's spindles actually worked. Yee-haw!

Here are some pics:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/914B3A91-F1D3-44D6-BDD5-11E32534D1FC-138-0000019412311A16_zps76eb7458.jpg

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/gryphon1994/76D2E159-B76E-4FD1-9A82-9496F275A159-138-000001946ED217CC_zpsda9fb571.jpg

Those are 5/16" lag screws, like I had mentioned earlier) and tie wire for rebar. You can see I had so much tension on everything that the spindles tried to twist towards each other. So I used that orange bar clamp to turn the one spindle back.

Having the screw hook up top helped to tension things as well.

I found putting in a row of boolits helped by going so far over, starting at the top, then dropping down to the next row and working over so far, then going back to the top and finishing that row, then dropping back down again.

Staggering them or having the next row split the difference of the row above helped too. I figured for powder coating purposes, you'd probably want to stagger them anyway, so no one boolit casts a "shadow" onto another.

something like this to start out with.

...o.....o.....o.....o.....o.....o
.o....o.....o.....o.....o
...o.....o.....o.....o
.o....o.....o.....o

Those were a 9mm's, 147 grainers, not resized yet, as dropped from a Lyman 4 cavity mould, probably like 2 years ago.

I did a very similar experiment and had great success. Need to ramp it up and change materials a bit. I took some hardwood I had 1" x 3/4" x 8" on 2 sides, and made a rectangle with 2 shorter pieces about 2 inches long.

No pics yet, but soon if there is interest.

Now I have a wooden rectangle, and I covered it in tin foil to keep the wood a little safer. Not sure how long hardwood can be in a toaster at 400 degrees without smoking. Only the wood was covered so the inside of the frame was open. Anyway along the 8 inch sides at equal intervals I put a small screw in about an inch apart.

I took some magnet wire and tied it to the first screw. then went from the bottom left most screw to the top left most screw and then back. This leaves 2 wires very close to each other. I just moved over to the next set of screws without cutting the wire and made another set of 2 wires across the frame. Keep going till you get to the end and tie to the last screw to secure everything. It will look like a loom or the above pic from Russel when complete. Remember to leave a 6 inch long piece of wire for clipping to the pc gun.

I inserted one boolit into each stretch of wires and it held them well in the tl groove. These were heavy rifle boolits for my 30-06. The rig holds 6, but I plan to ramp it up.

I put the whole thing in the oven with the boolits installed and let them get up to temp. Took them right out and sprayed them immediately. I found the nose down ones coated better. It went in the toaster oven for 25 min and were the best ones I made yet.

Again I do not know how well wood will do in these temps, especially if I used a soft wood like pine, so I'm thinking of going to aluminum and metal screws+bolts for the final setup.

Everything held secure and the boolits were easy to remove when done. The short distance of the wire runs are key I believe to keeping the boolits secure without drooping to much in the frame.

-RY

unfy

04-03-2013, 11:06 AM

Spring source, btw:

http://www.allrite.com/FGCOM_WD.HTM

Their piece 10 is kinda 'meh', but if ya take a spring kinda useful for this stuff... and change from 10->100 as quanitity... price might go from $11 to $13. If you then go from 100->1000, price might jump to all of $23 or something :)

popper

04-03-2013, 11:10 AM

I used some ash for my experiments and it held up great. Warpage is the only thing to worry about @ 500F and the wood will dry out. If you leave it raw it will get coated and stronger.

The short distance of the wire runs are key I believe to keeping the boolits secure without drooping to much in the frame. correct. Other problem is to keep the same tension on all the boolits in the string. Russel is using essentially bailing wire with a LOT of tension. Hope it works for him. I used the HS blades to get around that problem, ~ $8/10 at Sears, if you can find them. I'm not sure lock wire will take the tension but you can space them real close and then use some sort of clip to keep tension on the CBs along the wire. Just too much trouble for me.

popper

04-03-2013, 11:45 AM

Did ~ 80 this morning on the non-stick foil, nose down. Works OK, not a lot left on the noses. Had a few slide around before coating, none fell over when moving to oven. Not a task for someone with parkinsons. I redid some that had the base coated before, placed base down. Still got good coverage - so the ground doesn't have to be very good to work. That means I can do 1 side on the HSB, roll them over and do the other side for 100% coverage and don't have to grind any on the blades. Bolt a bunch together with all-thread and spacers. Sure is hard to type with a puppy biting on the other hand.
Finished coating and sizing >200 165TC in 3 oven loads. Not bad. Hint - if you wobble them a bit when cooling, the nose breaks free easier and doesn't leave much flash. Just when they cease to be sticky. Wait to long and it tears a lot off, which you get to remove when it's hard. They gained < 1 gr for well coated, well within limits.

bstone5

04-03-2013, 04:19 PM

popper

On the alloy for the pistol bullets are you using any of the small amount of copper before you powder coat.
I notice you have had a large input on the copper addition to the bullet alloy.

popper

04-03-2013, 10:28 PM

Some are copper added some are sulfur added. all are low Sb no Sn alloy. cu alloy is hard after HT from PC, sulfur takes a while. Don't have a hardness tester but dropped one from the bench today and it didn't dent. The lead supplier in Houston wants 2.50/# so I'll stay with rotometal.

170 SWC were COWW Cu'ized, don't really know the Sb content but harder than the 165TC in the last batch. They are 3:1 Pb/roto antimony Pb, pennies added for zinc and then Cu'ized. Both are a little harder than I want, had to up the load to get better accuracy, I'll try 3.5:1 next time. I PC'd and shoot all my sulfur'd alloy, it was OK but I like the Cu'd performance better.

Nose down PC'd had some flash but the sizer die eliminated most of the suspected feed problem. Flash went away or on the worst, broke off and didn't mess up the plug. So far the best solution for my use. Don't remember who suggested the non stick foil but thanks.
Now to build the 30-30 HS blade rig. Hoping to get to >1800 fps without GC, accurately.

ryokox3

04-03-2013, 10:43 PM

I used some ash for my experiments and it held up great. Warpage is the only thing to worry about @ 500F and the wood will dry out. If you leave it raw it will get coated and stronger.
correct. Other problem is to keep the same tension on all the boolits in the string. Russel is using essentially bailing wire with a LOT of tension. Hope it works for him. I used the HS blades to get around that problem, ~ $8/10 at Sears, if you can find them. I'm not sure lock wire will take the tension but you can space them real close and then use some sort of clip to keep tension on the CBs along the wire. Just too much trouble for me.

Thanks Popper, was not too sure on how it would hold up.

Anyway here are some pics of the setup. The basic setup :
66348

With boolits:
66349

And coated but not baked.
66350

This was a mix of 2 powders, hoping they blend well.

Russel Nash

04-04-2013, 12:59 AM

Thanks Popper, was not too sure on how it would hold up.

Anyway here are some pics of the setup. The basic setup :
66348

With boolits:
66349

And coated but not baked.
66350

This was a mix of 2 powders, hoping they blend well.

Cool! That looks like a good set up.

What kind of boolits are those? They look big.

If I were to start casting for rifle, it would be for a .308, something like 125-130 grains, so that's why I asked which boolits you have there. I haven't even started looking for moulds yet. I figured I'd wait til the panic dies down.

ryokox3

04-04-2013, 02:35 PM

Cool! That looks like a good set up.

What kind of boolits are those? They look big.

I'm using a Lee ctl312-160-2r . Makes from 160 -165 grain boolits. I resize them to .309 before coating ..... well depending on the rifle.

midwayusa link (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/339539/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-ctl312-160-2r-762x39mm-312-diameter-160-grain-tumble-lube-2-ogive-radius-gas-check)

tablestar

04-04-2013, 03:43 PM

Just found this online. Thought it might be an interesting Powder:
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/TEFLON-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK.htm

Russel Nash

04-04-2013, 03:45 PM

Ken73

04-04-2013, 04:13 PM

I'm using a Lee ctl312-160-2r . Makes from 160 -165 grain boolits. I resize them to .309 before coating ..... well depending on the rifle.

Do you find that sizing these particular ones to .309" crushes the grooves? What are you using for lube when you size them prior to coating?

Ken73

04-04-2013, 04:17 PM

Just found this online. Thought it might be an interesting Powder:
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/TEFLON-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK.htm

This looks cool but my only question is; does the teflon in this powder burn (and emit gasses) like regular teflon? If so, that's bad.

unfy

04-04-2013, 07:04 PM

Just found this online. Thought it might be an interesting Powder:
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/TEFLON-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK.htm

I ran across it as well. Teflon coated might be considered purposefully attempting to defeat body armor so I won't go near it personally. Here in the USA, that'd be a big federal no-no.

Ken73

04-04-2013, 09:17 PM

From Wikipedia (and yea, I realize it's not always right..)

In 1982, NBC ran a television special on the bullets, supposedly against the requests of many police organizations, wherein it was argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Various gun control organizations in the U.S. labeled Teflon-coated bullets with the epithet "cop killers" because of the supposedly increased penetration the bullets offered against ballistic vests, a staple of the American police uniform. Many erroneously focused on the Teflon coating as the source of the bullets' supposedly increased penetration, rather than the hardness of the metals used. A common resulting misconception, often perpetuated in film and television, is that coating otherwise normal bullets with Teflon will give them armor-piercing capabilities. In reality, as noted above, Teflon and similar coatings were used primarily as a means to protect the gun barrel from the hardened brass bullet, and, secondarily, to reduce ricochet against hard, angled surfaces. The coating itself did not add any armor-piercing abilities to bullets under normal circumstances.

Critics kept complaining about Teflon's ability to penetrate body armor... In fact, Teflon cut down on the round's ability to cut through the nylon or Kevlar of body armor.

I think the match guys would be in deep doo-doo otherwise, as many use moly on their bullets/boolits.

My biggest concern is that under elevated temps, the gaseous emissions from teflon supposedly cause cancer. Barring that, the powder listed above would be awesome for rifle rounds!

tablestar

04-04-2013, 10:54 PM

Just found this online. Thought it might be an interesting Powder:
http://www.allpowderpaints.com/TEFLON-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK-SLIP-SATIN-BLACK.htm

It was just a thought. I'm not even sure there is Teflon in the Powder and that it's not just a name. I was thinking that it could help reduce friction in the barrel. Too bad idiots had to misuse teflon and many states had to ban it. What's next? Taking away high capacity magazines? Taking away ar-15's? :)

Ken73

04-04-2013, 11:06 PM

I was thinking that it could help reduce friction in the barrel.

Actually I'm thinking about getting a pound to try out; whether it's teflon or not, it has some sort of friction modifier in it to make it slicker than normal powder coat which would be advantageous.

Too bad idiots had to misuse teflon and many states had to ban it.

Only a few states did, actually, and not full bans in all:

The federal ban on armor-piercing pistol ammunition uses only the composition of the bullet's core to determine legality. However, many individual states have legislation restricting various kinds of coating materials. For example:

North Carolina state law specifically forbids persons in that state to "import, manufacture, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any Teflon-coated bullet".
Teflon-coated bullets are illegal in Oklahoma under some circumstances.
Oregon state law forbids the "[possession of] any handgun ammunition, the bullet or projectile of which is coated with Teflon" while committing or intending to commit a felony.
South Carolina state law specifically bans "ammunition or shells that are coated with polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon)".
Virginia state law specifically bans "bullets, projectiles or other types of ammunition that are: coated with or contain, in whole or in part, polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) or a similar product" while committing or attempting to commit a crime.

unfy

04-04-2013, 11:29 PM

Just adding some clarification on 'from wikipedia' ... usually including a source link is handy :)

The quoted bits above are from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon-coated_bullet

The body armor quotes are from:

http://www.guncite.com/ktwint.html

Which claims it pulls from:

http://www.bwnit.com/~lcoble/2ndamend/ammo.txt

Which that URL / text file doesn't exist any more.

The actual law states (from, which appears to include post 1994 changes):

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

Soooooo.... indeed fine AFAIK. I recall there being anti-personnel clauses, but I think this was in reference to stuff like 40mm launchers and what not (which I was researching at the same time few years ago)..

machanic

04-05-2013, 08:27 AM

Checked out the Teflo product at Allpowders, according to their info it contains teflon, as far as teflon gasing at high temps, it melts at 620 deg F. dangerous gasing at 482 deg F. and dangerous to canaries at 396 deg F. some unsupported results at lower temps, I guess they shouldn't put the canaries in the oven!!;)

Edubya

04-05-2013, 10:10 AM

Bad Water Bill

04-05-2013, 10:49 AM

One BIG reason I have not tried coating YET.

It is still to cold for me to stand around watching paint cook and dry.:bigsmyl2:

Spring is supposed to get here shortly after Al Gores plain lands at MEIGS FIELD.:evil:

ryokox3

04-05-2013, 10:51 AM

Thanks! So even with the tumble lube "grooves" the wire was able to still able to hold onto the boolits just fine?

That's good to know.

And just like everything else, that mould you linked to is out of stock/back ordered.

WOW! those Lee mould blocks are inexpensive. I have 4 of the Lyman 4 banger moulds for pistol. While I was there at the Midway site, I looked at Saeco moulds. Cha-ching! $$$

The wire is thin, but it holds just fine. I got it a long time ago at Radio shack, but I'm sure you can find it in many places. It is called magnet wire, though as I recall it comes in many diameters.

Do you find that sizing these particular ones to .309" crushes the grooves? What are you using for lube when you size them prior to coating?

The grooves are noticeably reduced but still serviceable if you want to tl them. I bought the mold with the intent of PC, so I did not care about losing them. Also I have several milsurps that want the fatter boolit.

No lube was used on them pre-sizing. I'm using range scrap so maybe it is soft even after water quenching. Still I had no problem with sizing without lube..... (Now why does that sound so dirty)

If the powder coating goes as well as I think it will, I may just take those groves and the gc shank right off.

CountryBoy19

04-05-2013, 12:28 PM

I'm mostly interested in this for casting .30 cal bullets (and possibly .224 in the future) so naturally, I'm interested in pushing the velocity envelope of traditional CBs. That being said, I saw it proposed earlier in the thread but didn't see much talk about it.

Has any thought been put into heat-treating WW lead at the same time as the PC process? Or even after the PC process? One would need to use a thermo-setting PC composition so the coating doesn't get messed up in the process of dumping them into the water but other than that are there any problems with water quenching the PC bullets? It would even be possible to heat-treat as a 2nd step after sizing so the bullets don't work-soften in the sizing process. So a typical process would go like this: cast>PC>size>heat-treat>load.

Also, I had another though for PC "setups" that would hopefully not build up as much PC residue. Here is my thought process. PC sticks by electro-static charge through metallic/conductive components. If we use some sort of non-conductive sheet with small "contacts" that only contact the bottom of the bullet then we should theoretically end up with a somewhat clean sheet and coated bullets. My thought was to use (as previously used) small socket-head cap-screws threaded into a non-conductive, heat-resistant material. The screws would be electrically connected under the sheet either via wires or through a 2nd, conductive plate. Given a thick enough plate, you can even use counter-bored holes that the screw recess into and therefore they are held some-what level with the surface of the sheet keeping the screws mostly clean but there is enough gap to keep the bullets from developing the sticky "ring" on the base of the bullet. Thoughts?

Obviously I don't have a PC setup yet or I would be trying this. I'm just trying to brainstorm some ideas here. I'm holding out for a bit more data on the long-term viability of this, especiallyin gas-operated rifles. Last thing I want is to be cleaning sticky plastic residue out of gas-systems.

Russel Nash

04-05-2013, 01:50 PM

Granted it is an apples to oranges comparison, but we don't hear about Garand or AR15/AR10 or AK csst boolit shooters fouling up their gas systems with traditional waxey lubed cast boolits.

But like I said, apples =/= oranges. powder coating =/= waxey lube

I think the real test would be:

A. a bunch of shots fired through a suppressor

Or

B. A bunch of powder coated 9mm 124 grainers shot through a USPSA open gun, with its muzzle compensator, at major power factor, which would be right around 1,400 fps

CountryBoy19

04-05-2013, 01:52 PM

A. a bunch of shots fired through a suppressor

Another good concern... I will definitely be shooting 300 BLK through a suppressor.

Russel Nash

04-05-2013, 03:02 PM

If you have a user serviceable can amd say you're powder coated boolits are red, it would be interesting to see if the baffles are all covered in red gunk

machanic

04-06-2013, 03:48 PM

[QUOTE=ryokox3;2154483]The wire is thin, but it holds just fine. I got it a long time ago at Radio shack, but I'm sure you can find it in many places. It is called magnet wire, though as I recall it comes in many diameters.

I have some SS heat treated wire measures 0.023" holds in the tumble grooves nice, if any one needs some I'll will send some for the price of a stamp, I have about a mile of it!!

Patricklaw

04-07-2013, 01:15 AM

I took the plunge today and stopped by HF to get my very own PC gun. My wife was kind enough to pick up some non-stick foil so hopefully by next weekend I'll have some loaded. Since I don't have a 30-30 type mold I boiled the lube off some Missouri Whitetails that were on the bench.

Should I degrease them with a solvent before PC'ing?
If so what solvent?

unfy

04-07-2013, 05:51 AM

Been building the jig tonight...

Well.... it's... hmmm.

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-tray2a.jpg

http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/pc/pc-tray2b.jpg

40 s&w round for size comparison.

Ignore the top / bottom not being aligned - not attached yet etc.

With 1 inch centers, the top rails end up being half inch wide and half inch in between. Shadowing is going to be a problem.

Jig fail, I think. I'll eyeball it some more and debate if to continue or not.

*sigh*

Should I degrease them with a solvent before PC'ing?
If so what solvent?

Yeah, you'll want them to be degreased. Acetone works decently.

edit:

Yeah, uhhhhh as designed it's not going to work.

That said, if I take the legs off...

Thread some 2 inch machine screws through all of those holes you see (they're tapped already).... get them nutted into place on both sides of the angle iron for stability (1/8th inch thick aluminum don't offer much for threads to grab on to)...

Use some nuts near the opposite ends (what would be "sticking up") ... And try the wire weave back and forth stuff as ryokox3 has done with wood stuff for holding on to the lube groove... it might work.

Yields 49 bullets at a time with this particular jig...

If I position the feet / legs so that the jig is currently "in the middle" of the legs instead of at the top... might make flipping the jig over so as to coat the other side fairly easy as well (just to ensure a better coat.

I'll look into it.

ricklaut

04-07-2013, 08:55 AM

Should I degrease them with a solvent before PC'ing?
If so what solvent?

Patrick - I unloobed some of my boolits (coated with Lee tumble lube) with mineral spirits. I put them in a sealed container & agitated for a few minutes; hammock'd them in a towel & made sure they were dry before PCing. Worked fine. I'd just test a small batch first. I smacked one hard with a hammer to test adhesion.

popper

04-07-2013, 07:45 PM

I boiled the MBC lube off (waxy) and use gas to remove LLA. MS doesn't work too well on LLA for me. I save the acetone for other stuff.

Pinecone-sw

04-08-2013, 09:18 AM

If anyone has the secret of getting lead solder to work on aluminum please share it with us.

http://www.solder-it.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=89

This stuff with solder Al to most anything.

lmfd20

04-08-2013, 03:27 PM

Wow, 37 pages in one sitting. So much for sleeping before night shift. Going to try this in my 300blk, not real worried about the suppressor unless the powder coating is coming off in the barrel. The bullet doesn't touch anything inside the suppressor so it seems to me that you would see the build up in the barrel before it became a problem in the can.

sparkeyu

04-08-2013, 07:22 PM

sbeatty1983

04-08-2013, 07:34 PM

B. A bunch of powder coated 9mm 124 grainers shot through a USPSA open gun, with its muzzle compensator, at major power factor, which would be right around 1,400 fps

I loaded some 120gr TC up to major PF after powder coating. I shot 100rnds earlier today with no ill effects. Im not using a comp, just a kimber with a 5" storm lake barrel. My carry load is a 125gr gold dot loaded to 1425, so its nice to be able to make cheap practice loads to match my carry ammo.

machanic

04-08-2013, 08:47 PM

Hi every one, new to the forum. Ive been playing around with this , still trying to get it right. has anyone tried to cast a small cu wire into the boolit to hang to coat and bake, just a thought, i may give it a try

Hi sparkeyu, welcome to the jungle!:veryconfu Check page 11 post 209, works, but a little time consuming, fresh ideas are always welcome, and sooner or later someone will figure this out.

Russel Nash

04-08-2013, 10:58 PM

I loaded some 120gr TC up to major PF after powder coating. I shot 100rnds earlier today with no ill effects. Im not using a comp, just a kimber with a 5" storm lake barrel. My carry load is a 125gr gold dot loaded to 1425, so its nice to be able to make cheap practice loads to match my carry ammo.

For an un-comp'ed gun, that's got to be quite a snappy load. Thanks for posting your experiences. I had a friend who had tried one of the poly/moly coated black bullets in a .40S&W open gun. He said the black stuff coated the baffles in his comp and it was the hardest stuff he has ever had the displeasure of cleaning off a gun.

sbeatty1983

04-09-2013, 12:44 AM

For an un-comp'ed gun, that's got to be quite a snappy load. Thanks for posting your experiences. I had a friend who had tried one of the poly/moly coated black bullets in a .40S&W open gun. He said the black stuff coated the baffles in his comp and it was the hardest stuff he has ever had the displeasure of cleaning off a gun.

Honestly the recoil isnt nearly as bad as my .45 loaded with 230gr win ranger +P

Russel Nash

04-09-2013, 03:43 AM

Honestly the recoil isnt nearly as bad as my .45 loaded with 230gr win ranger +P

Ahhh...okay.

I did some jig building too. I welded up a frame out of steel channel (iron). Then like before on my deck spindles, I used eye bolts to attempt to tension the wire. The top one or two strands and the bottom two strands (I had an eye bolt down there too) would get tight when I tightened the eye bolts, but the middle strands would actually get looser. The tension was so great that it actually made the channel iron bow inward. :groner:

Luckily, I just tack welded most of the frame. So back to the drawing board....

I had some mig welder wire around so I tried that too. I had a few strands going and go them really tight. Then I plucked them. Dang near sounded like a guitar.

Colorado CJ

04-09-2013, 10:57 AM

My Dad, brother-in-law and I went out shooting Saturday. We shot around 500 powder coated bullets between us, both 45 acp and 9mm. All bullets functioned great and had great accuracy. Inspecting the barrels later showed a little powder residue and all barrels were spotless after only ONE pass of a bore snake.

I did not powder coat the base of the bullets, simply laid them on a sheet of non stick aluminum foil.

I think you guys might be over-complicating this ;)

Powder coat is the way to go for me from now on with ALL my cast bullets!

I can powder coat about 240 bullets per hour with my small toaster oven, 120 bullets fit on a ~8" x 11" steel plate (that is the largest plate that will fit in my small oven). I'm seriously considering getting a two rack larger toaster oven. I can see being able to coat ~500 bullets at a time with the right setup.

popper

04-09-2013, 02:25 PM

Co Cj - that works great for short pistol but I can't move the rifle CBs to the oven and have any stay upright. My pistol CB are flat nose and flat base so I place them nose down and am getting better accuracy that way.

Russel Nash

04-09-2013, 02:50 PM

As far as overcomplicating things, you are probably correct, but I want a totally coated boolit, preferably in one shot with the PC gun and with just one trip through the oven. Hi saw JMoriss's post over at the BE forums. Sounds like he wasn't thrilled about Donnie's HI-TEK coating process, with the several coats and several passes through the oven.

The Keep It Simple Stupid side of me is saying find something like this on Craig's List

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/13316/13549027_1.jpg?v=8CF3DE36437AC50 and a bunch of cookie sheets, and a roll of that Reynolds non-stick foil.

But like popper said, I don't even think a .30 cal boolit would stay upright even when getting wheeled into a powder coat oven.

Colorado CJ

04-09-2013, 04:03 PM

I size and install a gas check on my rifle bullets before powder coating. I also use a very flat piece of 18 gauge metal for the tray. With the gas checked bullets and the flat tray, I really don't have a problem with having the bullets fall over. I've powder coated 30 cal bullets in 155 gr and 170 gr. with success. You do have to move very carefully with the tray though. It may be more of a problem with the very heavy, long 30 cal bullets such as the 247 gr .30 cal NOE bullets.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8592909174_6d6d5cc93e_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55229792@N03/8592909174/)
DSC01243 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55229792@N03/8592909174/) by Colorado CJ (http://www.flickr.com/people/55229792@N03/), on Flickr

fixerupper

04-09-2013, 04:40 PM

For whats its worth.

Ive had great luck powder coating pistol bullets. Ive also recently used the Donnies HiTech coating with good success.

This weekend I tried a couple of plain based rifle bullets with coatings and NO gas checks at higher velocites. I have the Ranch Dog 165gr 30-30 bullet I did both in powder coat and with the Hitech coating. My go to load for this bullet with checks is 30ish grains of RL15, water dropped 50/50 soft lead / isotope lead. I tried the same load on plain base with good news/bad news results.

Bad news first. HORRIBLE accuracy. Barely on paper at fifty yards. Two bullets out of ten hit paper with powder coating. One bullet out of ten on the Hitech coating.

Good news. No leading with either. It appears from my limited testing at 30-30 pressures and velocities that while providing a good degree of protection from leading, neither coating can be expected to be a good gas check substitute.

I've also started to experiment with a moisture cured paint coating that shows a lot of promise on pistol bullets The best part is application is tumble lube with no baking. If you guys are interested I can provide a quick write up of what Im using.

bmiller

04-09-2013, 04:53 PM

I would be interested in seeing a write up.

bstone5

04-09-2013, 05:00 PM

I tried a moisture coating some time back, POR-15 the coating worked but the fumes from the coating required a very good filter mask while applying.
I have used a lot of POR-15 products in restoring old equipment that had some rust, the stuff works well on old equipment but the application seemed to take time.

The powder coating seems to be faster and not require the breathing mask when being applied.

olaf455

04-09-2013, 05:03 PM

I would be interested in seeing a write up.

Plus one...

popper

04-09-2013, 05:05 PM

Two bullets out of ten hit paper with powder coating. One bullet out of ten on the Hitech coating. Interesting. I assume the RD is W/O GC? I've got some of the RD 170 which drop @ 180 FB, does good with 14- 2400(not PC'd), loaded up some @ 15 - 2400 & 20 LeverE (slower than RL15) PC'd bases to compare. If I don't get rained out Thursday I should have some data. I doubt the PC will replace GC but may get close, 15-1800. Also have near full load 308 PC'd to try. I'm interested in the HI-Tek, but he is out now.
moisture cured paint coating Would you start a different thread on that? There are other besides hi-tek on the other thread. Yes we would be interested.