what makes a cartridge "bad" for cast bullets?

[Whiterabbit]

I read it frequently. The efficient cartridges for cast always seem to have lower case capacity than high pressure alternatives. Or be designed in general to operate at low pressures. Velocities seem to be all over the map, including well over 2000 fps.

Why couldn't the larger ons work too? Why is 30-30 for example good for cast, couldn't a 308 be loaded with a bulky powder to get the same velocity? couldn't a 30-06? Couldn't a 300 win mag?

If I didn't care about efficiency (I'd have to cram lots of trailboss in a 300 win mag case, for example), why couldn't he "bad" cases be good for cast also?

[mpmarty]

Some just work better than others. Example: 358 Win. is a very flexible cast boolit cartridge, 243 Win. isn't. Same case (308 Win.) but bore ratio and capacity is vastly different. Now go ahead and tell me what a wonderful deer, hog, griz cartridge the 243 is with cast.:violin:

[I'll Make Mine]

The generality is going to be that extreme pressure and fast twist are bad; both of those will tend to strip the rifling off the boolit leading to poor accuracy and severe leading. That said, both factors can be mitigated with the proper methods; paper patched cast bullets, for instance, seem to be able to handle anything jacketed bullets can, with less barrel wear and at lower pressure, when appropriate conditions are maintained.

[Whiterabbit]

Then my question is, isn't pressure something WE control with large cases? Take the 243. why couldnt I use a full case of trailboss, or a light charge of 4895 to reduce the performance? Assuming the twist is right for the velocity, should be a winner right?

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Whiterabbit. Your idea of using TrailBoss in .243 has merit. I have an original .236 (6mm)
Winchester-Lee straight-pull sporting rifle. The twist is 7 1/2". The case was the basis for the
.220 Swift.
I am using the Ideal 245498 100gr. G.C. with either 10.0gr. H4227, or 10.0gr. TrailBoss.
I was worried about that fast twist..but grouping 3/4" at 50yds. 1 1/4" @ 100yds. with the open buckhorn rear & blade front. No leading. Increasing charges opens groups...Wonder if this is due to twist? Might try a slower powder & chrono.

[9.3X62AL]

The 243 can do good work with castings, within certain limits. I've won the "Group" award at NCBS twice with the caliber. RCBS 95 SP atop 12.0 grains of 2400 gives about 1650 FPS and MANY 1.25" 5-shot groups at 100 yards from a raggedy old Rem 788 that is box-stock. Some of its groups are closer to 1.00", but it's a 1-1/4" rifle to be factual/conservative. NO, it isn't appropriate for deer, pigs, or other large game--but it's decisive on varmints to the size of coyotes within 175-200 yards. Same story with the 250 Savage, same powder/weight and boolit weight (NEI 100 grainer).

I'm not sure I believe the old wive's tales about how certain calibers aren't appropriate for cast boolit usage because of some condition concerning that chambering or the rifles that contain it. I was told that 7mm Rem Mag was a waste of time as a cast boolit caliber--only to have a friend's Ruger 77RS turn in 1.5"-1.75" groups with it at 100 yards consistently--velocities in the 1800 FPS ballpark--with loads I pulled out of a manual at random. There will always be some naysayer out there beating his gums and spouting drivel he read or heard elsewhere that gives him comfort. HERE, the members gleefully challenge most of those hoary old cowpies, and apply them properly--as fertilizer for their imaginations. Never say "never", never say "always" in this hobby field. Stay safe, but remain iconoclastic.

[Larry Gibson]

...............Why couldn't the larger ons work too? Why is 30-30 for example good for cast, couldn't a 308 be loaded with a bulky powder to get the same velocity? couldn't a 30-06? Couldn't a 300 win mag?

If I didn't care about efficiency (I'd have to cram lots of trailboss in a 300 win mag case, for example), why couldn't he "bad" cases be good for cast also?

Short necks and large case capacity are generally the main reasons.

However given a properly designed cast bullet for the case neck/chamber throat and a powder that ignites efficiently in the case capacity (filler helps here, particularly a dacron filler) any cartridge can be successfully used with cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

I agree with LG, anything can work but why? Small CB @ low fps - get a 22LR. Cast for big boolits at low speed - works easily. Yes, you can shoot cast in a 243, at 1/3 the design fps but why? Smokeless cases are designed for > 2000 or ~1000 fps. Twist limits velocity with lead alloys. Yes, there are exceptions.

[Bullshop]

I think another point that can be set on the "BAD" side of the scale is fouling.
For smallish capicity cases that can be loaded to the same dencity and pressure (or nearly so) with cast as the factory rounds the fouling will build at a normal rate and allow a normal number of accurate shots between cleanings.
Very fast burning pistal/shotgun powders have a normal pressure range much lower than mag pistal/rifle powders so are more fully consumed at lower pressure and so leave less fouling. Problem with those is you cant come close to filling the larger cases and stay within cartridge pressure limits, that is for the most part with modern cartridges.
Another way is to use a too slow powder to fill the case or nearly so. The problem there is if the pressure is too low to be optimum for the powder the fouling will be bad. If the pressure is high enough to properly burn the powder with normal fouling then it most likely will be too high for the limits of lead alloy boolits. Twist rated will come into play there as well.
Any cartridge can be made to shoot cast boolits well but there will always be some kind of comprimise with large capacity cases that normaly work over 35,000 psi or possibly up to 40,000 psi. Those are not exact numbers but ball park.
There are a few folks here shooting cast boolits in a 50 BMG and getting reasonably good results and that would be a good example of a large capicity high pressure case.
There are no set rules in this only genoralities. If there were rules we would all simply obey them and the sport would no longer be interesting.
So try your idea's and see how they work out that is what this is all about. Burning powder is a very interesting hoby that seems to yeald varying results for different folks.
I guess that is because the guns we use for it have as much difference in personality as we that use them.

[mdi]

I agree with LG, anything can work but why? Small CB @ low fps - get a 22LR. Cast for big boolits at low speed - works easily. Yes, you can shoot cast in a 243, at 1/3 the design fps but why? Smokeless cases are designed for > 2000 or ~1000 fps. Twist limits velocity with lead alloys. Yes, there are exceptions.
But shooting a 45 gr. cast bullet in my .223 is soooo much more fun than shooting a .22lr! :mrgreen:

[scb]

I don't know that it's a "bad" cartridge, but the 300 Savage would be about my last choice as a cast bullet round simply because if it's short neck.

[Wally]

I agree with LG, anything can work but why? Small CB @ low fps - get a 22LR. Cast for big boolits at low speed - works easily. Yes, you can shoot cast in a 243, at 1/3 the design fps but why? Smokeless cases are designed for > 2000 or ~1000 fps. Twist limits velocity with lead alloys. Yes, there are exceptions.

I shoot the .243 Win w/Cast (95 RCBS SP-GC) using 11.0 grains of Unique @ a MV of 1,700 FPS--- about 60% the velocity of a factory round. I do so for two reasons: 1) Economical less than a 6¢ a shot 2) Accuracy---I can plug a 4" wide steel plate with it consistently at 200 yards..on a calm day I have hit it 20% of the time at 400 yards.

Sure, its' nice to use full loads but I do quite well with cast and my cases last longer as do my targets.

[Wayne Smith]

You do realize we are talking about good, better, and best, not possible and impossible? To say something is better than something else does not remove the second from being used, just says that the first is somehow better. Ideally the the cause of that judgment is stated along with the judgement.

I have a degree in Philosophy - WHY do you want fries with your burger?

[quilbilly]

I don't know that it's a "bad" cartridge, but the 300 Savage would be about my last choice as a cast bullet round simply because if it's short neck.

I tend to think any case with a short neck will be hard to load with cast. Examples - 222 vs 223, 300 savage vs 30/30, 243 vs 6mm Rem, etc. Not to say it can't be done - just more complex

[geargnasher]

I tend to think any case with a short neck will be hard to load with cast. Examples - 222 vs 223, 300 savage vs 30/30, 243 vs 6mm Rem, etc. Not to say it can't be done - just more complex

All it takes is a boolit shaped right for the cartridge and a good set of straight-line dies.

Gear

[btroj]

300 savage isn't a problem at all. I have shoot quite a few from a Rem 700 in 300 savage with very good results. The RCBS 165 SIL bullet is prefect for this as it has a very short bearing surface. Just need to keep veloicty and pressure reasonable.

[swheeler]

I would say that throat specifications are more apt to cause a "bad" cartridge for cast than case capacity, second probably rifling depth and form. BUT....... as with all things these dimensional "malfunctions" can be overcome. Just an opinion

[popper]

Wally Not disagreeing with you, the same thing can be done (200 anyway) for 3-4 cents in a 22 with no labor or tooling. The OPs question was what is better, I think. 1700 is normal for cast, 3700 isn't. Nothing wrong with trading performance for economy or fun.

[9.3X62AL]

Those 95 grain 6mm boolits at 1700 FPS do a whole lot more damage and at much farther range than a 22 LR can be expected to provide. CCI Mini-Mags run about 7 cents each these days, my 243 cast boolit loads aren't a whole lot more. Not even a question here.

It's a given that when the bore capacity/case capacity ratio starts getting larger on the case end that cast boolit ability vs jacketed bullet ability will widen. The same 243 I'm discussing will stay inside 4" at 400 yards with 75 grain V-Max, and start out at 3425 FPS. I'm not concerned that the castings start at half that rate--they are still effective for my uses to 200 yards, possibly more. Cartridge cost for the j-word loads is 4X that of the cast boolit load, but only doubles my reach.

[JeffinNZ]

I'd say a lack of imagination or experience.