25cal jackets

[Danth]

Hello All: I've made a derim die for 22mag brass and had hoped to utilize it for making 25cal jackets. I'm using a Hollywood press/dies and so far have been unsuccessful. The jackets are collapsing during swaging. I've tried seating the cores with different pressures and different weight cores. I use RCBS case lube for a lubricant as I've been using it successfully on 22lr to .224 bullets. Any suggestions? Thanks, Danth

[blaser.306]

Just my oppinion on the matter , But I think that you may be going in too large of a step up in diameter! I was under the impretion from what I have read that 6mm .243" was doable with 22mag jackets, jumping up to .257" may be more that the brass itself can take? I trust you are annealing before you attempt to seat your cores?When are you getting your jacket failure ? Core seating, point forming ?

[Danth]

The de-rim die expands the 22mag brass to .255" diameter and removes the rim. A core is placed in the jacket and swaged in place. The jacket/core is then placed in the swaging die and bumped up to .257" while forming the ojive. It's during this swaging process that I can feel the jacket "giving way" . When the bullet is ejected. sure enough, the jacket has collapsed forming wrinkles from the start of the ojive back towards the base of the bullet. Annealing seems to have no effect on this problem.

[MIBULLETS]

When you say the core is swaged in place, what do you mean?

This is quite possible to do, you just have to have the right core seating punch to do it. What do the seated cores measure? They should be just under .257". you really can't bump up in a point form die unless it was designed to do that.

I do this to make .323 (8mm) bullets using 30 cal jackets.

[Bullshop]

That happens to me if I am using too light a core.

[blaser.306]

Just to be clear, are you seating your core in one operation, then doing your pointing up or are you core seating and point forming at the same time? If the cores are already seated the lead inside should be providing the needed support to the "jacket" If you are using a very light(short core) you may want to try some kind of filler similar to what Corbin offers in his "bullet balls" I have used airsoft BB's with good result.

[Danth]

I'm using Hollywood dies/press. For those of you that are unfamiliar with their process, it goes like this: drop the core into the jacket and seat the core. This is done by pushing the core into the jacket with the top punch, the jacket being held in place in a little cup, but you cannot apply alot of pressure or the jacket/core will distort. The jacket/core is then set into the swaging die body which takes the position of the cup. The point forming die replaces the top punch and the two dies come together forming the nose of the bullet and bumping the diameter of the bullet to .257". I've tried all different core lengths but it doesn't seem to matter. I was thinking maybe the lube might have some connection, but the same lube works on 22 and 30cal bullets.

[Danth]

Oh, and something else: I'm using .187" wire as a core as that was listed as the proper size wire by Corbin. When I seat it, it completely fills the jacket. Maybe a larger diameter wire (if there is one that will fit) would work better?

[blaser.306]

The core NEEDS to be pressed into the jacket firmly enough to expand the jacket to near the finnished diameter of the desired slug! For a 25 cal I would strongly suspect this to be around .2565"ish with the final "bump up" coming when point forming If the core is not fully expanded in the jacket there is nothing to hold it in place when fired from the gun and core/jacket separation is all but certain! The lead core being dead soft does not spring back and the jacket will and that is what holds everything fast. If there is air space between the core and case/jacket there is nothing to support the walls as the point is formed,so a crushed case will almost definately result.

[Danth]

Blaser: I think you may be right. I'm going to machine up a new cup; both closer to finished size and deeper to support more of the jacket. I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks!

[blaser.306]

Just to get the basics , and all the presses and dies regardless of maker will have to perform the same basic operations to make a working ( sorry guy's ) bullet Go over to Corbins website and either bookmark his info on swaging ,And there is alot of ti. Or see if someone here has a book or two that they would be willing to sell/share with you.

[runfiverun]

you could try heating the seated core/jaxket with a torch.
heat it enough to melt the core and watch for air bubbles in the alloy to escape.
then re run it through the core seater and see how much depth you lose from the origional.
then lube and point form that.

[MIBULLETS]

I think you are onto the issue now. I was also thinking the same thing. The procedure you were using might work if the lead completely filled the jacket. but if any space is left inside the jacket, it will not expand up in the point form die. Most die sets do this in the core seating die as blaser stated. The CH dies are capable of bumping up in the point forming die because all sides of the bullet receive pressure and the jacket just balloons up from the internal pressure of the lead. With a open tip or hollow point, this is not possible outside of a thousandth or two of an inch, the jacket will wrinkle first before the lead inside can be expanded.

[Grapeshot]

You might do better using the spent shotgun #209 primers for your .25 caliber bullets.

[Danth]

I dug out some Hollywood literature I have and found they offered .210 wire for 25cal to 270cal. I made up a core mold today which will drop .217 cores. I think this might solve my problem. I have not had the problem with 22cal Hollywood swaging dies, nor 30 cal swaging dies, but then again, the cores I have been using for those calibers are very close to the inside diameter of the jackets. You can't really seat the core aggressively with the Hollywood setup as in so doing, you will expand the jacket beyond the diameter which will enter the swaging body die.

[Smokin7mm]

So you are saying that with the hollywood dies that the jacket is not fully supported by a die while seating the core? If this is the case I do not see how you can get good core to jacket contact. I use RCE equipement. Jackets are about .002" under final diameter to start and when you seat the core it expands out to within .0005 of final diameter and the point form bumps it up to final diameter. Do you have pictures of this core seating set up?

Bret

[runfiverun]

yeah... that sounds like you are using a "universal" core seater or one made for a 270 bullet.
your core seater should be about .255 outer jaxket diameter.

[MightyThor]

The die that supports the jacket during core seating is the same die that hold the core for point forming. If you remove the bullet from the die between these two steps you can't get it back in the die to form the point. I use my Hollywood Super Turret and have the dies already set up so that you don't have to remove the bullet between steps. I also expand the 22 mag jacket prior to trying to seat the core. My process with the Hollywood dies and press is on here someplace.

[MightyThor]

You might do better using the spent shotgun #209 primers for your .25 caliber bullets.

There was an old die set that you could use to make 25 cal pistol bullets from the primers, but we are making rifle bullets that are much heavier. you can't get the primers to stretch out enough to make a useful rifle bullet.

[Danth]

The Hollywood die set contains two cups; one for seating the core and one for sizing the finished bullet. You drop the core into the cup and seat the core with the top punch. The core is not supported entirely in the cup, only about 1/3 its length. You only seat the core enough to be sure its bottomed out and in contact with the jacket walls. If you seat the core too much, it distorts the core/jacket and won't fit into the swaging die. After swaging, the top punch is re-installed and the sizing cup is used to ensure perfect diameter. This step is optional according to Hollywood. This process is alot different than your standard swaging setup. By the way, when swaging, lead is extruded thru the nose of the bullet, so a small tit has to be removed from the finished bullet. I realize typically core seating entails enough pressure to bump up the core/jacket, but Hollywood doesn't do this. The core/jacket actually gets bumped up while swaging. I've used these dies for 22cal and 30cal and haven't had a jacket come loose from the core yet (knock on wood). Mighty Thor has a great idea keeping the bullet in the swaging die during core seating and swaging, but without a turret, I'd be switching top dies 3 times to make a singe bullet. If I start having problems with jackets coming loose maybe I'll have to resort to this.

[MIBULLETS]

Danth the small tit is what I was talking about. You need that in this set up to build the internal pressure in the jacket to fill it out in the swage die. Much different than most systems, but if you get them shooting good, who cares how it happens.

[Danth]

MIBULLETS: My line of thought exactly. I was getting that little tit but the jackets collapsed just the same. I haven't tried the larger diameter cores yet, but I'm optimistic that will cure the problem.

[Danth]

Thanks to everyone that has offered help, I'm now making great 25cal bullets from 22mag brass. The wrinkles in the jacket apparently formed when the core was not seated properly in the jacket. I made a new core seating punch closer to the diameter of the jacket ID. I also made the core seating cup over with tighter tolerances so the core/jacket stays aligned with the punch better. I seat the core until the diameter of the jacket/core will just fit into the swaging die and wholah, nicely formed bullet w/o wrinkles! Thanks again for all the input!

[MIBULLETS]

Any pictures of your finished product??

[Danth]

54170

By the way, I seem to get the best results by not annealing.

[MIBULLETS]

Awesome! Those should be pretty explosive. What weight did you end up at?

[Danth]

The pic is of an 86gr bullet. I've made 100gr as well. Both can be made from .17HMR brass. I'm pretty excited!