Interesting result with graphite

[Jim]

I've been playing with extremely light loads of fast pistol powders in my H&R 223. I have some .225 Bator boolits that I've been messing with. I have a batch that was lightly coated with 20% mineral spirits and 80% Lar's Xlox. I put a coupla dozen in a coffee can, added a very small amount of 4X fine graphite powder and gently tumbled them to dust them with the graphite. I removed the boolits and tumbled them in a towel to remove the excess.

Next, I loaded test rounds with 3.0 down to 1.0 grains of Bullseye in half grain increments. Every one fired. I found this odd as the last time I did this with boolits coated with just the Xlox, the boolit over the 1.5 grain load stuck.

I got to wondering just how little powder I could use, so I loaded five more rounds, from .9 grains down to .5 grains in .1 grain increments. Every one fired!

I'm not a chemical engineer or a ballistician, so I don't know what to make of it. I do know, though, that it opens my window of test ranges much wider.

I went on to load five each of 1.0 grains to 2.4 in .2 grain increments. I had planned to shoot them today, but we got rain comin', so I'll have to wait.

[geargnasher]

Graphite lubes better than gummy liquid Alox. I wonder if they'd clear the barrel with just the primer?

I'm assuming you're still not getting any barrel fouling, so you might really have something for those of us who want to play with mouse phart loads where conventional lubes can be a bit too viscous.

Gear

[Jim]

I did not think to comment on the condition of the bore. Thank you for reminding me of that.

I started with a clean, dry bore. After the test shots, I checked the bore thoroughly with a light. It looked exactly as it did when I started.

If anyone's interested, I just ordered a 1 lb. container of 4X fine from the GRAPHITE STORE. (http://www.graphitestore.com/itemDetails.asp?item_id=188&prd_id=34&cat_id=28&curPage=1) The link will take you to the page showing the 1 lb. size.

[Hamish]

Uh-oh, this is bad. I've had the thought of loading unchecked Bators backwards for a 10" .223 Contender barrel and making a bb gun load for "Tactical Rodent Control".

[Jim]

I ran another test. .4., .3 & .2 grains of Bullseye. I couldn't get my scale to register .1, so I passed that and went to a small rifle primer only. All of the charges fired and expelled the boolit. The primer alone did not even expel the boolit from the case. I even fired another primer only, measuring COL before and after. The boolit was unmoved.

All charges were fired with the barrel elevated to about 80 degrees or so placing the charge against the flash hole.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Jim,

IMHO, you are playing with dynamite. Charges that small in a rifle case, to me, looks like
an accident looking for a place to happen.

JMHO, YMMV

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[geargnasher]

That's why he's using BE. I would have thought the primer would have done more based on the previous testing with the boolits lubed in such a manner, but it just goes to show how much the powder is really doing. Good to know, thanks Jim.

Gear

[rhbrink]

I've shot as low as .5 grains of Bulls Eye in the .223 using a 225415 lubed with 45.45.10 I used a small pistol primer did not size the case just knock out the primer seat a new one drop the powder charge and seat a boolit by hand. I was shooting these in a Encore which made it easy to check that the bullet cleared the barrel every shot. Offhand at 15 yards they shot was well as my 22 air rifle and just about as quite too. Have fun but do be carefull.

RB

[runfiverun]

you ever try to pull a swc from a case after it has been lubed with alox?
i threw a batch of brand new 44 special cases away after attempting to pound them out with a kinetic puller,and ruining the tops of some of the boolits in the 0-frame.

[Jim]

This started off as just a squirrely idea. I sure learned somethin', though!

[Ken73]

Might want to take a look at this stuff:

http://sandblastingabrasives.com/Bullet-Lube-Gun-Barrel-Bore-and-Bullet-Lube-Order-Page.html

I haven't had a chance to try it but apparently this is what all the high power guys are using.

[leadman]

I used to coat alot of my boolits and bullets with moly or graphite. Believe me when I say the moly does build up in the bore. It appears like the bore is really nice and clean, but take some graphite and put it on a piece of metal and rub it with another piece of metal or flat wood. It burnishes to a nice smooth shiny surface.
Not saying this is bad just the when you have to clean the bore it takes alot of extra effort and brushing it to remove it. Fastest way I found was with JB Bore Paste.
It does seem to lower pressures in max jacketed bullet loads from the pressure signs like case expansion and primer condition.

You are raising the muzzle to 80 degrees then lowering back down on the target?

[fecmech]

When clicking on the link for sandblasting abrasives above in Ken 73's post I got a virus warning from Avast, Be careful!

[Ken73]

When clicking on the link for sandblasting abrasives above in Ken 73's post I got a virus warning from Avast, Be careful!

Norton gives it a safe rating. No offense, but I trust Norton far more than any free product. False positives are great for selling product but really do nothing for you.

http://safeweb.norton.com/report/show?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsandblastingabrasives.com%2F Bullet-Lube-Gun-Barrel-Bore-and-Bullet-Lube-Order-Page.html

[mdi]

FWIW; I tried some Catapillar Boom Lube (spray on lube for boom slides' outriggers, etc. dries to a "hard" shell). I sprayed it on some .44 Special 240 gr. AC wheel weight cast bullets, and it worked fine (S&W 629 and SS Ruger SBH). Didn't try it with Magnum velocities though). I believe it was a graphite based lube that is almost black and dries to a non-sticky coat (so as to not attract dirt and grime on boom mating surfaces).

[Papa Jack]

For several years when I first started casting I got the best groups using an old can of GI Graphite Grease and hand lubing.....
Using these in 30-30 and .38 special. No barrel leading, but the patches were sure BLACK...
I used a lot of Unique and Red Dot back then. Also used Hornady .310 "Rnd balls seated below the case neck opening and a small amount of Graphite Grease smeared over the ball.
You can try some GUNSLICK, might work good too... just an idea.
"PJ"

[44man]

Nothing to do with mouse loads but too slippery can be detrimental to accuracy.
What is the purpose of just getting a boolit out the bore?

[Reloader06]

:kidding: Because he can? To learn the lower limits? Because he's bored?

Matt

:drinks:

[williamwaco]

Graphite lubes better than gummy liquid Alox. I wonder if they'd clear the barrel with just the primer?

I'm assuming you're still not getting any barrel fouling, so you might really have something for those of us who want to play with mouse phart loads where conventional lubes can be a bit too viscous.

Gear


I don't think so.
I use a primer only to start the slug when slugging a barrel.
I have never seen a bullet started by a primer only travel more than a half inch.

That said, I have never tried it in a rifle.


.

[Jim]

I have managed to get an Xlox/graphite coated 48 gr. Bator boolit out of the bore with 1/2 grain of Bullseye. I was not able to get the same boolit out of the bore with less than 1.5 grs. using straight Lar's Xlox. That, in itself, proves something to me about the lubricity of graphite.

I have, however, been doing more testing with graphite and continue to make progress. In comparing groups fired with only graphite added to the lube as the difference, I noticed that, at 100 ft., the POI was significantly higher and some of the groups were a bit tighter.

Keep in mind that all these groups were tested with very light charges of Bullseye. My theory is, if graphite added to the lube does provide more lubricity, I need to keep the velocity as low as possible to see the differences.

I have some more experimental loads to fire, hopefully today. I'll post the results on my photos site and provide a link.

As a side bar, somebody recently asked me why I quit posting the results of my testing here and was now posting on my photos site instead. Honestly, I got sick and tired of negative comments ranging from "You're gonna blow up your gun!" to "You'll shoot yer eye out!". And my all time favorite? "Why, what's the point?" Me thinks I'll leave it at that before my alligator mouth overloads my chipmunk behin'.

[Doc Highwall]

I have shot in a 222 Remington with 1.5 grains BE with a 12 grain 22 cal pellet that is a max charge.

[40Super]

One of my ingredients I put in my homemade bullet lube is a graghite that I found at work,a whole coffe can of it. I use it for lubing a lot of things. Didn't do any real testing to see what effect it had though. I just had it and thought I'd put it in with carnuba red and JPW/wolfshead red grease.Works good.

[williamwaco]

I have managed to get an Xlox/graphite coated 48 gr. Bator boolit out of the bore with 1/2 grain of Bullseye. .

I have used that exact charge in a 1911 .45acp with the 200 gr Lee SWC with LLA. I was hoping it would just spit out out and I could pick it up. It buried it 9" deep in hardwood mulch in my wife's flower garden.

One day, I will work up the nerve to try it with 1/4 grain. One day. Not tomorrow.

.

[myg30]

William, I bet the look on your face was a poloroid moment when that went off and the mulch scattered up. I have not worked up the nerve to try the low powder charges yet. Mouse loads do have their uses as well as "Plastic or Rubber bullets" do.
Slugging a bbl might work well with a low load, primer charge only but I have not tried it yet.
The sky is the limit when you cast, lube and reload your own !

I love this forum !

Mike

[noylj]

LLA is not a lube, per se. It is a barrier coating that tries very hard to eliminate contact between bullet and bore.

[PS Paul]

Now I got a hankerin' to do some sperimenting myself with some powder puff=like loads. Might be just the thing for the basement garage on a rainy day.

So WHY? I suppose some might ask WHY do you load cast? Why do you bother with tryin' different lubes? Why do you play with different alloys? Well, I guess it's like the lady who asked me this summer, "Why do you catch those bass when you're just gonna release 'em anyway?". The answer, "That question, ma'am, you would not understand the answer". and such is the same for askin' WHY?

[rbertalotto]

Big Case + Little Bulls Eye = Predetonition ?????

No concern about this? Primer flashes over the top of the BE, pushing bullet into bore causing bore obstruction, BE ignites and all hell breaks loose?

[Jim]

Big Case + Little Bulls Eye = Predetonition ?????

No concern about this? Primer flashes over the top of the BE, pushing bullet into bore causing bore obstruction, BE ignites and all hell breaks loose?

I've done the research and established the data. I've got a photographic file full of documented targets that show what I did with very light charges of not only Bullseye, but Unique and WC 820, too. They have been posted on this forum several times over. Would you like to see them AGAIN?

You started this, not me. I'm callin' you out. Show me YOUR documented data.

[machanic]

Jim glad to see you posting again, interesting stuff, sorry it has to be in defence of your experimenting. I did a little math using .5 gr. powder 100% combustion, no loss of heat, boolit still seated in cartridge, and the max preassure would be 61,343 PSI high but still exceptible, the conditions I used are a theoretical worst case and does not happen except on paper, so .5gr powder confined to 1.87cc case volumn, complete burn, no heat loss=61343 PSI. Looks to me like you will keep your fingers!!
Recalculated using the BTUs generated with .5gr double base powder instead of average combustion temp, new #38709 PSI theoretical max pressure!!!

[Jim]

It makes about as much noise as a CCI .22 CB cap.

[canyon-ghost]

Slugging a bbl might work well with a low load, primer charge only but I have not tried it yet.


I have. I've slugged a 32-20 Contender with 1/2 grain of 2400 and slugged a 7mmTCU with 1.5 grains of SR4759 (because anything lower stuck the bullet in the bore). That's a very good use of resources and conventional wisdom. Abturation? Yes, at low speeds, the center of the bullet moves first, dragging the outside down the rifling. It turned a plain base into a hollow base, more or less leaving a concave base.
The advantage is that you don't have to hammer to get the very largest size the bore will accept. It's a fair amount of instant accuracy for sizing dies and lead bullets.

Notice that I never said I've done this with revolvers or rifles, much less semi-automatics but, it has merit.

Good Luck Jim,
Ron

[tall grass]

Jim, et al

An other source of fine graphite is your John Deere dealer. Sold to be added to the planter box of seed to lubricate the seed plates and/or other moving parts in the bottom of the box. I think that it was less than $8.00 a bottle, was at least a quart of graphite.

Jim

[randyrat]

Yes that's where I bought my bottle of Graphite also, John Deer dealer...I just wanted to thank Jim from VA for sharing this info about mouse loads and graphite. Wow I would have never dreamed Graphite makes mouse loads possible. Very cool discovery. Yes of course, caution needs to be in the for front.
I'm thinking of a little sperimenting with round balls slightly sized to .309/ a football shape and shot out of the 30-30, light coating of 45/45/10 and rolled in graphite. I'm looking forward to knocking mean/vicious pop cans down at 10 yards with very little noise.

[pilot]

Jim, thanks for posting this.