45-70 - Cast - Deer Hunting

[Jkallen83]

well, next weekend is gun season for deer here in alabama. my newest rifle is my H&R Handi Rifle 45-70 Govt.

this rifle is SWEET. iron sights and i can shoot sub 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

so i started casting for this rifle right away with a 405gr lee mold, but i cast almost pure lead so my cast is actually coming out at 420gr. but the bullets are really soft so i have to be careful with them because i can cut them with my fingernails.

i shoot these somewhere around 1350fps according to load data. very accurate and they seem to expand no matter what they hit.

so far im super impressed with this rifle, cant wait to see how it reacts on deer. ive read alot about hard cast just punching a hole, i got it cast soft enough it will expand.

anyone else hunting with 45-70 and cast? or soft cast?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

I cast for and hunt with - deer & elk - a 45/70 and the one thing YOU DO NOT need is an expanding boolit.

Providing you use a boolit with a Wide Flat Nose (meplat) there is zero reason to use a soft alloy.

Many people use WW or alloys based on the Wheel Weights.

My mold maker recommended an alloy of 50/50, WW/soft lead, cold water quenched as the boolits drop from the mold.

The boolit is a 465gr WFN, gas checked style that I am pushing 1600 - 1700FPS and it is flat out DEADLY on the critters.

Over expansion can be an issue here, and along with it, a great loss of good eating, and again, with the proper boolit design -WFN- expansion IS NOT NEEDED!

This was a bit hard for me, as an expanding "J" bullet hunter/loader since the 1960s, to really believe, but once I tried it, everything I had read about the effectiveness of the non-expanding WFN cast boolit was found to be true, in spades.

The wound channel is simply awesome, and MUCH larger then what I would ever expect with a non-expanding boolit. Also much longer!!!

With your season opening next week, your pretty much locked into what your have cast/loaded and tested, but soon as the season is over, use the pure/soft lead for mixing your alloy or muzzle loaders, but NOT your 45/70.

Mean while, avoid any shoulder hits or any hit with lots of good meat attached, or you will come up short in the freezer.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Jkallen83]

I'm not concerned with meat damage. In my area, if a deer runs, you have probably lost it. So I make sure when I pull the trigger, the deer is right there. So I lose a little meat from the shot, much better than an entire animal loss.

So I LOVE expanding bullets. Eventho if the 45-70 punches straight thru with hard cast, its still a big hole, but it should be bigger if it expands.


I've experimented with real hard cast and did not like the performance.

As far as shooting the shoulder bone.....our deer are small compared to other parts of the country, but if been tempted to hit the shoulder just to get a solid hit to see if I could "flip" one lol.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Interesting.

However, the main reason I go hunting is for meat. Other wise I'd be fishing or napping or???

AS I said earlier, the wound channel is awesome from what I shoot - WFN - and any deer sized critter that runs for any distance is because of a miss or very/extremely poor hit.

The WFN just lets too much air into the critter and a deer sized critters folds like a wet piece of paper. [smilie=w:

Unless you are using a paper patched boolit, soft lead is waaaay to soft. The paper patch can help it shoot fine, but it is still waaaay to soft.

CDOC

[joec]

I also prefer harder casts for hunting especially with 405 gr bullets. I'm leary of using soft cast bullet it at high velocities also as I don't mind a little expansion but don't want the pieces in the meat either..

[Baja_Traveler]

Hey Ol' Coot - what mould are you using?

Care to post a pic? Hunting Elk with my Sharps is high on my "To Do" list...

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Just another thought on your last post, "real hard cast" are not something which finds much favor with most cast boolit hunters.

The alloy needs to remain soft enough that it will not shatter as would be the case with a, "real hard alloy".

For those who are seeking very high, for cast, velocities, the hard alloys find some favor, but I have seen velocities as high as 2500fps in my 45/70 and there was no more sign of barrel leading then there was at 1700fps. Only a slight streaking in the last 1 or 2 inches of the bore.

Even that slight trace of leading was gone when I got the right lube involved.

This was not with, "real hard cast" bullets. Hardest I have used were WW with just a touch of tin, and even that is no longer used as the softer alloy of 50/50 ww/lead, as I said, quenched, works just fine. Is hard enough to hold together and maintain shape as desired, but not so hard as to shatter as would a "real hard cast" boolit.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Traveler,

Sorry to say, the mold maker is no longer in that business. His business changed somehow, so he had to stop making his great molds.

It was Bruce - Babore - who still posts here once in awhile. Great guy to talk with and made excellent molds.

I am not a tumble lube person so don't with Ranchdogs produces, but there are a number of other good mold makes available who make quality molds. LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) and some others I see listed.

Just make sure to get a WFN or LFT (long) style.

I can send images if you send me a PM with your "E" address, but have never figured out how to post to the forums. I think my files are too big for the systems to handle.

It seems that cast booits of over 400grs just tend to shoot better in the 45/70 then those of lighter weights, and my mold maker gave the edge to his 465gr over his 420 - 430gr boolit.

Sure has worked out well for me! Along with his recommendations as to alloy, powder and amount of powder.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[GabbyM]

Since you're shooting slow at 1,350 fps a soft lead should work great IMHO.

I've shot a pile of soft 45 caliber muzzle laoder 240 grain maxis faster than that and they hold together fine.

[Jkallen83]

GabbyM, yeah I don't have any issues with soft lead from my 45-70. Sure I have to shoot it slower but I'm not really into speed, just efficiancy and accuracy. I've recovered a few of these cast like this shot into different things and I was very happy with the results. Great weight retention and expansion was excellent. I also have plenty penetration. But when I do get something to stop a bullet, it sure pays the price because it takes full energy of the shot.


I get no leading at this speed so it shoots clean. I have high hopes for this...now maybe if I was hunting larger game such as moose or buffalo, I might want it a little harder but for the deer here, it orta be excellent.

I sure love the gun and the round and the punch it has. Love it

[44man]

I shoot most deer behind the shoulders to save shoulders.
My 45-70 BFR shoots 1630 fps and hard boolits (18 to 22 bhn) shoot holes through deer with almost no internal damage.
Best to stay around 1300-1350 fps with hard lead. That seems to be where the WLN and WFN works best. Go much faster and find some expansion.
I lost two deer and those I found went over 200 yards and they just had a clean hole through the lungs because the hard boolit was too fast, only shoulder shots would have worked.
Babore sent me 50-50 boolits to test. I oven hardened them for accuracy and shot a deer behind the shoulder but it exited at the opposite shoulder. I lost the entire shoulder. :(
I would NOT go too soft again and would sure keep pure lead away from shoulders. Sad to say but the only way to know is to shoot enough deer with each alloy to make a decision. Be sure if I was shooting 1600 fps or more I would never use a real hard boolit again but I don't want explosive either. You will scratch your head at the damage a 45-70 can do or won't do!
And remember I am using a revolver.
Last picture is a too soft boolit at 1630 fps, shoulder was gone to mush.
First picture is a hard boolit at 1350 fps. You can see just what a velocity difference can do.

[largom]

On opening day I use my 45-70 with the RCBS 45-405 boolit over 46 gr. RL-7. The alloy is 50/50 air cooled and aged 4 weeks. Do to number of hunters out I don't want the deer to run so I usually go for a neck or shoulder shot. Later in the season I use my Savage 99 in 300 Sav. with the Lee 309-150 boolit.

Larry

[softpoint]

I'm not concerned with meat damage. In my area, if a deer runs, you have probably lost it. So I make sure when I pull the trigger, the deer is right there. So I lose a little meat from the shot, much better than an entire animal loss.

So I LOVE expanding bullets. Eventho if the 45-70 punches straight thru with hard cast, its still a big hole, but it should be bigger if it expands.


I've experimented with real hard cast and did not like the performance.

As far as shooting the shoulder bone.....our deer are small compared to other parts of the country, but if been tempted to hit the shoulder just to get a solid hit to see if I could "flip" one lol.

While I will tell you ,too that you don't really need expansion with the.45/70, in certain areas, a little meat loss due to bloodshot meat is/can be better than having an animal go down into a canyon or onto neighboring private land. One of my 45/70 loads here on the farm for "whatever comes along" is a 340 gr. Lee cast of nearly pure soft lead, paper patched with 2 wraps of tracing paper and loaded with 46.5 gr. RL 7, for 1950 fps. I shot 2 deer with this load last year, and while it did ruin a little meat, neither deer took even one step after being hit. I've shot deer three years ago using the Ranchdog 460/350 gr. bullet, cast hard, and those 2 deer fell within a step or two, so both work.

[725]

I use a 460-420 with a flat meplat out of a Handi and have never wanted for more. 40 gr of 3031 is a trapdoor level load. 50% / 50% pure & WW. Very accurate and powerful. No excessive meat loss and they usually are DRT.