Annealing cases for BP

[oldred]

I just opened a new box of Starline 45-90 brass and loaded them with BP and the Lee 500 grain cast, these were new never fired brass and I did not anneal them before loading. I am thinking now maybe I should have since I have been told that there is a much better seal when using annealed cases and BP but how important is it? It's only 20 rounds and with the bullets seated to a COL of 3.07 I can only get 70 grains of powder in the case using a thin fiber over-powder card cut from paper gasket material. Will these things seal ok or can I expect gas leakage around the case mouth?

[Chill Wills]

This is from the horse's mouth, The Starline website


How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?
1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.


2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)

3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far.

[mehavey]

I also have a 45-90 and shoot starline w/ BP.

Trust me, you NEED to anneal the last inch or you will get half the case blackened (w/ accompanying variation in velocity) by the blow-by.

See:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499058

[oldred]

Thanks, annealing for BP is something that was told to me as being necessary and I did so on my other cases even with them also being new. So then as long as I keep my brass clean and polished, which I do, then annealing may not be needed at all?

[oldred]

I also have a 45-90 and shoot starline w/ BP.

Trust me, you NEED to anneal the last inch or you will get half the case blackened (w/ accompanying variation in velocity) by the blow-by.

See:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499058



We apparently were typing at the same time and I did not see your reply until I posted, I will shoot these things tomorrow and see what happens.

[Chill Wills]

Thanks, So then as long as I keep my brass clean and polished, which I do, then annealing may not be needed at all?

NO. That is not what Starline is saying. What is implied is that After you fire the round , look at the case. Quoting Stalrine again here: "Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal."

So Starline is saying...
The dirty sooty stuff gets on the OUTSIDE from the cases being too hard and not expanding at the time of discharge . Annealed cases, that is softer cases will expand when fired and seal the outside of the case/inside of the chamber from the products of combustion ...... stops the sooty cases.

I have found some lots of Starline brass do not need annealing and others will. Each rifleman can make there own mind up how to proceed. Annealing brass, like so many things in the BPCR world has many more than one correct way to solve a problem. With Starline, often Annealing is the answer to their hard brass.

[John Boy]

"Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal."
Hold the presses!
New rounds fired (not previously fireformed) will also produce dirty cases and unburned powder. The principle is - the mouth of the the case is not adhering to the chamber wall properly.
Fire the new cases 2 or 3 times then anneal or anneal the new cases before the 1st reload ... which is always what I do

[oldred]

NO. That is not what Starline is saying. What is implied is that After you fire the round , look at the case. Quoting Stalrine again here: "Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal."




Yes I see now and I guess I should have caught it the first time, can't believe I took that like I did! :groner:

[mehavey]

Notwithstanding the ...only if...," let me recommend the unlikelihood of significant blowback not happening in Starline's 45-90 series.***


** Oddly enuf, it does not happen in my 38-55 w/ Starline, though that may be purely a function of the relatively tight chamber from the bullet's required 0.379" case expander

[Jon K]

When in doubt...ANNEAL.
Then, you'll have all the bases covered.

I anneal Starline brass before firing. I tried once, not to, and split the casemouth with the expander die.

Jon

[oldred]

Ok, I got some black staining about a third of the way down the case on the two rounds I fired. Didn't seem to hurt anything but it is kind of messy and I am sure it's not good for the rifle, probably ok to shoot them as-is but no more trouble than it is to just pull the rest of them and reload correctly that's what I think I will do..

[Jon K]

This is from the horse's mouth, The Starline website


MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again.

The brass work hardens upon firing...and sizing

Jon

[lkydvl]

PLEASE don't follow their directions for annealing. If the necks turn red you've gone too far. The case necks and "shoulder" area should just start turning blue. No need to water quench, just heat to that color and move to the next one.

Andre`

[oldred]

PLEASE don't follow their directions for annealing. If the necks turn red you've gone too far. The case necks and "shoulder" area should just start turning blue. No need to water quench, just heat to that color and move to the next one.

Andre`



That puzzled me too, I may be a long way from being an authority on reloading (especially for BP) but I do know a bit about heat treating and tempering/annealing metals and heating to red hot then water quenching just did not seem like the thing to do, still I have to admit that except for brass cases done recently I have never tried to anneal brass so I honestly did not know for sure.

[EDG]

How to anneal
http://annealingmachines.com/how_to_anneal

I anneal using a Lee case spinner to distribute the heat around the case neck evenly.

I look for the wet silvery blue just before the darker blues begin.
I have annealed hundreds of 30-06 formed to 8X57 and 7.65 Mauser, and hundreds of .30-30 formed to .30 Herrett.
I have also annealed heavily used 45-70s and 45-70s formed to 40-65 and .303 British cases formed to 6.5X53R Dutch.
I have never damaged a case with this annealing process.

The torch I use is usually one of the little pencil butane types. I have also used the more common propane torches but the larger burner requires more care.

[oldred]

http://annealingmachines.com/how_to_anneal

Thanks lots of good info there and I think that's an especially good tip about annealing in a darkened room, at least the first few cases until a person does a few and can see what the finished cases should look like. I have tempered lots of steel items such as springs and small gun parts and I think it's very important to have the metal polished (steel or brass) before applying heat, dull oxidized or dirty metal will not properly show color changes and could easily lead to mistakes. I have learned a lot here and I am thinking that maybe the cases I did in the past were a bit too hot, I knew better than to let the case heads get hot so I did these with them standing in a pan of water but I let them cool without quenching.

[montana_charlie]

Most of what I would say about annealing is known by others, and they usually say it as clearly as I could.
So, I am content to just read along, unless somebody mentions the need for a dark environment.
Then I post this link ...
A video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D0Wzu-c

I would say this about the video:
You don't need a dark room.
You don't need the water quench.
and
The case needs to spin constantly, but it doesn't need to spin fast.

CM

[oldred]

unless somebody mentions the need for a dark environment.Then I post this

You don't need the water quench.
and
The case needs to spin constantly, but it doesn't need to spin fast.

CM

I don't think anyone meant this should be done in the dark, more like just dimmed lighting, just that for a beginner it might be a help on the first couple of cases, much easier to see the changes as the metal starts to turn red. In fact I think a much better suggestion would be to avoid brightly lit areas and this very thing is often suggested when learning to harden and temper metals, there's a big difference in what looks red in dim light vs bright light.

[Ed in North Texas]

snip

** Oddly enuf, it does not happen in my 38-55 w/ Starline, though that may be purely a function of the relatively tight chamber from the bullet's required 0.379" case expander

My best guess as to the probable reason for this is most folks don't have a Ruger Number 1 in .38-55, so the brass doesn't have to be made to stand up to loads of smokeless which toss a 300 grain and up bullet at 2000 fps or more. :bigsmyl2:

Ed

[oldracer]

When I started with my 45-70s about 3 years ago, I spent a Friday with Doug Knoell while he worked over the Rolling Block I bought. I took about 6 or 7 pages of notes on most everything I could think of and he could also. One item was case prep and sealing the cases to the chamber. From his notes: "I fire form the cases after notching the edge of the rim and then do the cleaning/polishing routine. I true the edge of the case mouth and then bevel the inside edge just a little. I then insert the empty case into the chamber and if it slides in a bit too easily I will expand the case mouth ever so slightly and try it again until I get a snug fit, possibly even having to use a "seater" to fully seat the case. Then when you shoot, there should be absolutely no powder streaks on the sides of the case. Note my bullets are a slide fit into the case with no crimp. Don't see no need to anneal the cases unless I am going to crimp the cases, which I don't."

I have followed this advice and get a very great seal with no streaks at all AFTER the first fire forming. During the first shots, there will be some streaks and have been on all the brass I have used so far. I have also looked inside the chamber and barrel when shooting with my bore-scope and you can actually see the line where the end of the case is in the chamber. So far

[montana_charlie]

I think a much better suggestion would be to avoid brightly lit areas.
Did you watch the video?
If it didn't change your mind, I am certainly not going to try.

CM

[Ed in North Texas]

When I started with my 45-70s about 3 years ago, I spent a Friday with Doug Knoell while he worked over the Rolling Block I bought. I took about 6 or 7 pages of notes on most everything I could think of and he could also. One item was case prep and sealing the cases to the chamber. From his notes: "I fire form the cases after notching the edge of the rim and then do the cleaning/polishing routine. I true the edge of the case mouth and then bevel the inside edge just a little. I then insert the empty case into the chamber and if it slides in a bit too easily I will expand the case mouth ever so slightly and try it again until I get a snug fit, possibly even having to use a "seater" to fully seat the case. Then when you shoot, there should be absolutely no powder streaks on the sides of the case. Note my bullets are a slide fit into the case with no crimp. Don't see no need to anneal the cases unless I am going to crimp the cases, which I don't."

I have followed this advice and get a very great seal with no streaks at all AFTER the first fire forming. During the first shots, there will be some streaks and have been on all the brass I have used so far. I have also looked inside the chamber and barrel when shooting with my bore-scope and you can actually see the line where the end of the case is in the chamber. So far

Sounds like great information. Is it reasonable to believe you do not hunt with the rifle? It sounds more like a match rifle prep and loading.

Ed

[oldracer]

As you surmised, I do not hunt but in a single shot with a round in the chamber it would not matter if the case was crimped or not. The hunters I have talked to in AZ and CA say they load a round and carry at half cock. My Sharps and Rolling Blocks need to be cocked to shoot but in a lever action or something like the BFR 45-70 revolver they would need a crimp although slightly I imagine? I have found that I have never had a bullet fall out of a case with the mouth slightly expanded and I do pick up the round by the bullet so there is some resistance.

I went and checked some rounds tonight and the slight bell at the mouth affects only about 50% of the bullet length so 50% is snug in the case. The bell is so slight that it can be barely felt my finger pressure on the case. I also checked my bullet size and they are 0.459 diameter after sizing. I too use a 500gn Lee cast bullet, the pointed ones from the double molds.

[BCRider]

On colors and red glowing. A dim room is best IF the metal in question will be heated to a glow be it dull red to bright cherry. A dim room for THAT sort of temperature guaging is best.

For determining the oxidation colour as seen in montana charlie's posted video link a brightly lit room is best.

Two different jobs and two different ideal environments.

Charlie, the cases don't need to be dropped into water but it does halt the heat from creeping through the metal any further than the colour change on the end. So for that it's a good step.

To those that think that red hot brass dumped into water will cause it to go hard this is simply not the case. Higher carbon content tool steels get hard from the quench because of how the metal atoms are forced to link with the carbon during the quench. Brass and aluminium simply do not have the carbon or other suitable additives to cause them to go hard by quenching.

"Water hardening" cast boolits by dropping the freshly "frozen" cast boolits from the mold to the water vs onto a tray to cool slowly is another issue. I need to read up on the metallurgy of that mechanism.

I've annealed brass by getting it dull red for other applications. It DOES make the brass VERY soft. I suspect TOO soft for use as ammo casings. So the partial vs full on annealing suggested by only heating to a blue oxidation colour makes a lot of sense.

[mehavey]

Calibration check.

I have discovered that:

1. Starline 45-anything rifle brass DOES require annealing to seal at BP pressures. Case wall thickness is that required for high-pressure/high performance smokeless loads and does not expand at low pressure. I anneal ALL those cases.
2. Starline 38-55 brass, conversely, is rather thin by design, and more often than not does seal effectively with even moderate BP loads.

When I do anneal. however, it is by using 750◦ Tempilaq in the neck for the first several
cases until a flame dwell time is established for that session. I most specifically do not
rely on color as it is quite dependent on consistent room lighting.

[13Echo]

Probably the best way is to get a bottle of liquid 650 deg F Tempelac (sp?). Put a bit on a case neck and let dry then run it through the flame. when the Templelac melts take it out and let cool. It will be properly annealed. Take note of the time required and do the other cases for exactly the same time in the flame. No guessing required.

Jerry Liles

[cajun shooter]

Let me add this bit of information that I was given by KW. The annealing of case mouths does more than seal the chambers. KW advised me about 3 or so years ago to anneal my brass each and every time they were loaded. Now this pertains to BP loads.
His groups changed by a large amount once he started this practice.
This man has many NRA National records and I look up to him when it comes to shooting accurately.
I started the same practice and my targets improved by a large margin.
It all boils down to what you want to receive on the down range side. If you are a pie plate sight in type of person, then don't worry about it as far as the help with the accuracy viewpoint goes.