Goex FFG or FFFG Powder

[Swamp Ghost]

All black powder shooters know that when you deal with Black Powder that the job is gonna be messy and foul a barrel quicker than the black powder substitutes will and require more swabbing. BUT !...That fun of black powder and gosh I sure love the smell of black powder at the range in the evening time :bigsmyl2:

My problem has always been problems reloading. Now I have just recently added three more front stuffers to my black powder arsenal. Before all I had was a T/C Hawkens with a badly pitted barrel and it is no doubt that this pitted barrel was my problem with loading a following shot. I was just about having to scrape and swab the barrel after each shot in order to load a following shot.[smilie=b: Talkin'bout a pain in the backside. Now like I said if you use BP your gonna have to swab the barrel here and there due to fouling,that's just how is it is with muzzleloaders. But here lately I have been using FFFG BP instead of FFG. Now here is my question....If I have a barrel that is smooth and in good shape which powder "FFG or FFFG" would foul the barrel less and be able to squeeze in more shots without having to brush/swab the barrel ? Or would either powder make any difference at all ?
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" Those Who Hammer Their Gun's Into Plows Will Plow For Those Who Do Not ....'Thomas Jefferson' "

[Nobade]

If you are talking about roundball guns, it shouldn't matter. If the ball and patch combo is correct, and you are using a sufficient amount of the right lubricant on the patch, you should be able to shoot for as long as you care to and not have to wipe the bore. Each patch does that for you when you load it.

Now if you are talking about shooting bullets, that's another matter. Likely you will find less fouling with FF rather than FFF, but it comes down to the brand of powder, how much of it you use, type of bullet, type and amount of lube, if you use an over powder wad or not, what that wad is, etc, etc. Only your own rifle can tell you by using it.

[Swamp Ghost]

I use factory patches. Can't remember the dia. of the patch. But,yes I use PRB over a 70 grain charge of Goex FFFg Powder. And I use a combination of Vaseline and Crisco grease for patch lube.

[DIRT Farmer]

Black powder should not be that messy. Leave out the vasoline and use stright crisco, or go to a tallow lube. I do use bees wax and olive oil on shotgun wads though and have no real problem even with 100+ shots in a round of sporting clays using B/P cartridge. The patch and ball combo should fit well enough to keep problems down.

[Maven]

SG, You may need to add beeswax to your lube, or try whipping up a batch of this:

Stumpy's Moose Snot: A premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range. SPECIFICALLY designed for use of patched round balls in a loading block

Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz. (Olive- or Canola Oil can be substituted)
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.


Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water or a double boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups. Add just enough water so the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a teaspoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy and smooth - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.

Note: it if is a hinged tin - line the edge that has the hinges with a strip of aluminum foil so it doesn't ooze out before it cools.


SG, As I didn't have castor oil on hand, I used olive oil and the resulting patch lube works great. E.g., last Sunday I fired ~21 shots from my rifle, using between 45gr. - 100gr. FFg, and never had to wipe between shots and experienced no difficulty loading.

[shredder]

[QUOTE=Swamp Ghost;1914203]All black powder shooters know that when you deal with Black Powder that the job is gonna be messy and foul a barrel quicker than the black powder substitutes will and require more swabbing.


I respectfully question this assumption since my experience has not borne this out. Real black was a revealation for me after 15 years of shooting substitutes since I always assumed the above to be true. For me, in my guns, with pyrodex select or rs, vs goex fff, the black is very much easier to manage. I use windex with vinegar diluted 50/50 with water for cleanup then condition with ballistol. Never going back to pyrodex!

[gnoahhh]

I too would drop the vaseline from the patch lube. The introduction of petroleum based products to the bore only makes for a messier fouling. Also, there's no need to have the patches sopping gooey wet with lube either (not saying you do). As for FFg vs. FFFg, the 3f burns with a tad more pressure given equal volumes of each which translates into a bit less fouling in my experience. I use 3f for everything rifle and pistol-wise, and only use 2f in shotguns and smooth bore muskets.

With a good smoothly rifled bore there should be no reason to not fire long strings of shots without stopping to clean, if using a proper patch/lube/ball combination. Certainly a few shots per day while hunting, anyway.

[Swamp Ghost]

{ Gnoahhh } I agree with dropping the Vaseline. I have always been told not to use petroleum based lubes , cleaners nor bore butter in a muzzleloader. I guess I'll just have to do some experimenting and try and find what I can use that I can fire at least 5 shots without having to swab the barrel and have to pound the patch&ball down the barrel. I've have gotten all types of lube recipes for all kinds of folks...even from an expert muzzleloader crafter. I'm gonna try the "Stumpy's Moose Snot" recipe that is provided above,And see how that works. Do you think that just straight Crisco would be the best bet ?
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“The fascination of shooting as a sport depends almost wholly on whether you are at the right or wrong end of the gun.”
― P.G. Wodehouse

[Hanshi]

I use Hoppes #9 BP lube and fire strings of up to 4 dozen shots without having to swab. I DO often swab the bore, however, after every ten or twenty shots but it is not needed with Hoppes, or even with spit. Some people swab after EACH shot and don't mind it a bit. Also the tighter the load the less fouling is left after each shot; the tight prb pushes the fouling of each shot down when seated. Hoppes makes this easy as it DISSOLVES the fouling, too.

I use 3F in all my guns from .32 up to .62; rarely is 2F used except in very particular loads. Fouling of each is about equal, anyway.

[mooman76]

Use the good ol spit patch. I never have to swab when I use that. Some say they get less fouling with fff and some with ff, it just depends on the gun and load combo and you really have to try and see to determine what is best for you.

[Maven]

SG, You can't beat the price of Crisco, so why not try it? However, try , say 12 patches lubed with Crisco v. 12 lubed with spit v. 12 lubed with Stumpy's Moose Snot. Make sure you clean the bore after each group of 12, of course. As you've no doubt surmised, many things have been and can be used as patch lubes, but some are superior. In warmer weather, I use spit patches, but for convenience, e.g., on a trail walk, I use patches prelubed with Stumpy's blend.

[Swamp Ghost]

{ Hanshi } Thank you, I will remember that. Hoppes #9 BP lube

{ Moonman 76 } Your exactly right...A spit patch does work wonders. I have only shot my T/C New Englander once. I cleaned the barrel very well before my first shot. And when it came time for my second shot,I like to have never got the ball down the barrel. I was using Crisco lubed patches. I like your quote....That kinda reminds me of a story I heard about some ghost that sports a Cherokee Tomahawk : )

{ Maven } I'm gonna try several different things...Like I have said before BP is messy and fouls real easily but I can accept that. My things is if I come into a situation where I have to use my muzzleloader as a self defense weapon I would like to at least wont to be able to first at least 10 shots. I was squirrel hunting on time with my CZ .22lr and had a little bit of a wild hog situation. If I would not have had my .357.....I'd been up the creek without a paddle. Here in Mississippi no additional firearm is allowed on your person during primitive weapon season. That's why I have to come up with something to where Im not having to beat a patch and ball down my barrel after only one shot.

[waksupi]

FFFg leaves less fouling. Use the right lube, and you can shoot all day, without fouling the bore. I like Moose Milk. Your lube combination sucks. I also don't like any lubes with beeswax in them, if you are shooting along string. I was at a shoot today, temperature around 20 degrees. You wouldn't have got a half dozen rounds down the barrel before needing a major heating of the barrel, and cleaning.
I use FFFg in everything, from .40 rifle, to 20 bore smoothbore.

[Swamp Ghost]

{ waksupi } Moose Milk ? Never heard of it. Your recipe ?

[Maven]

SG, Winchester Sutler sells commercial "Moose Milk" (a water soluble oil + H20): http://winchestersutler.com/ShotLoad.html#CNL Another manufacturer makes a pale blue version of it. (Winchester Sutler's is pale green.) However, you can make your own with 1 part Ballistol to 6 or 7 parts water. And yes, it works very well.

[waksupi]

First, ya catches yourself a moose. A momma moose. Man mooses don't go for that milking stuff.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have had trouble with petroleum base lubes and BP.It gums up something fierce after a few shots.Hoppies 9 plus is a great one as Hanshi says.

[Alan]

Depending on the temp and humidity, I've found that sometimes it is easier to deal with a bit more fouling if it is kept soft. 3F fouling seems to be a bit harder, even if there is less of it. 1F fouls a bit more in my 12 ga, but it is not a problem. It patterns a bit tighter, and the fouling seems softer than 2f, or 3f. I've never had problems firing dozens of shots w/o swabbing.

My 12-bore Pedersoli Gibbs rifle is the cleanest-shooting muzzy I have ever seen. Even with 2F or 1F, just the smallest puff of carbon goes into the water pan. 3 passes with the swab and it is clean.

[gnoahhh]

If you're having to pound the ball down the bore, I would suspect that there is something wrong with your ball and patch combo. Either your ball is too big or your patch is too thick. Continued use of a tight fitting combo would have me reaching for a fiberglass or metal ramrod too. Nothing like a broken rammer poking through one's palm to ruin the day.

[Hanshi]

While Crisco , and other grease lubes, work okay for the first shot, they mis with the fouling to create a gummy mess that makes reloading almost impossible without cleaning between shots. Keep in mind that in a hurry a bare ball in a rifle does quite well for shorter range.

[John Taylor]

I have tried many lubes over the years and found Hoppe's to work fine when shooting strings of 10 in competition. Lately someone gave me some bore butter and I have tried it a bit but not enough to make a decision on it. With the Hoppes I run the patches wet.
Crisco will melt in warm weather and seemed messy to me but it is cheap.

[KyBill]

Got to Love it Talk about Fouling - a little vasoline Then catching and milking a MoMMa Moose.
I like the Bees wax mix .
99% of my shooting is Conicals
use to foul out a 54 shooting prb the rifleing was only .004 . used wrong Balls , Patches and lube 25 years back wish computers were back then , STILL LEARNING

[725]

Ditch the vasoline. Do what Maven tells you to do. If the T/C barrel is badly pitted, send it to Bob Hoyt and have it rebored to a larger caliber and give it an appropriate twist. The man works miracles and the price is right for the work done. You'll be tickled pink with the results.

[Maven]

Thanks 725!

All, Deer tallow is also a good patch and maybe conical lube. Look at this thread, especially post #2: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=171292

[Boerrancher]

I will go ahead and add my 2 cents in to the mix. First off, I agree that if you are having to swab in between shots to have easy loading you need to re-evaluate your patch, ball, and lube combo. Also you need to ditch the petro jelly. With any of my ML's I can shoot hundreds of PRB's with out swabbing, using either 2F or 3F powders. Some of my guns shoot better with one or the other, so I keep both on hand for my 5 front stuffers.

If I am hunting, the first patch is a grease patch always, because I can leave the gun loaded for days at a time with out issue. All of my other shots for the day are spit patches. I have been on all day squirrel hunts with my 32cal and fired it over 50 times with no reduction in accuracy and no problems with follow up loads. 32cals are supposedly notorious for fouling up. If I am just out shooting, I use strictly a spit patch. Nothing works better for a patch lube than human saliva.

Right now my 20 ga trade gun is loaded with a PRB lubed with a bear grease bees wax lube. It has been loaded for 2 weeks now. I have a tin of patch material that I pre-cut, and when I head out to hunt I stuff one of the patches in my mouth and keep it there until I either shoot and reload or spit the patch out at the end of the day.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Swamp Ghost]

Having loading problems with my T/C New Englander now. I can only fire one shot from the rifle. The rifle will not accept an addition load. You can barely even get a bullet started. I've just got fed up. I called T/C Arm and they told me that if the barrel is badly pitted (Which It Is) this is going to be my main problem. They told me to order some Wheeler Engineering Lapping Compound (600 Grit) and that should get rid of and fill in the pitting. The rep. I was speaking to said he had the same problem and use the WELC 600 Grit and it worked miracles on his barrel.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

we use friendship speed juice , i didn't know it was called that till some one here told me i just knew it worked very well

1/3 hydrogen peroxide , 1/3 rubbing alcohol , 1/3 Murphy oil soap

in a small dark colored spray bottle , spray the patch then load , it also can be used to wet several patches put in a snuff can

we can shoot round ball with 3fg all day and never wipe the barrel each loads as easy as the next very consistent accuracy

[Hanshi]

I will go ahead and add my 2 cents in to the mix. First off, I agree that if you are having to swab in between shots to have easy loading you need to re-evaluate your patch, ball, and lube combo. Also you need to ditch the petro jelly. With any of my ML's I can shoot hundreds of PRB's with out swabbing, using either 2F or 3F powders. Some of my guns shoot better with one or the other, so I keep both on hand for my 5 front stuffers.

If I am hunting, the first patch is a grease patch always, because I can leave the gun loaded for days at a time with out issue. All of my other shots for the day are spit patches. I have been on all day squirrel hunts with my 32cal and fired it over 50 times with no reduction in accuracy and no problems with follow up loads. 32cals are supposedly notorious for fouling up. If I am just out shooting, I use strictly a spit patch. Nothing works better for a patch lube than human saliva.

Right now my 20 ga trade gun is loaded with a PRB lubed with a bear grease bees wax lube. It has been loaded for 2 weeks now. I have a tin of patch material that I pre-cut, and when I head out to hunt I stuff one of the patches in my mouth and keep it there until I either shoot and reload or spit the patch out at the end of the day.

Best wishes,

Joe



You and I think alike. :awesome:

[Swamp Ghost]

You all was telling me about the " Patch & Ball " Combo. I'm shooting a casted pure lead .490 RB with a .15 patch and crisco as lube. Ive used pillow ticking and factory patches and still have loading problems. But like T/C Arms told me...If the barrel is badly pitted then its gonna inter fear with loading. My T/C New Englander had greatly tee'd me off. I clean the barrel spotless , load a patch and ball , fire the rifle and can not even start another ball in the barrel.
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" Never Keep All Of Your Eggs In One Basket "

[fouronesix]

If I'm following this right, you are having a problem with a ML that has a good condition bore. My experience is that to get the absolute best accuracy is to swab between shots and use a fairly snug ball/patch combination and lube the patch only with moose milk.

For shooting longer strings without swabbing between shots for ease of loading, the ball/patch combination has to be a little looser and the humidity has to be a little higher to keep the fouling soft. Also, the larger the charge of powder the greater the amount of fouling thus the shorter the shot string will be before the need to swab for ease of loading. For me, the looser fit, higher humidity and lesser powder charge have more to do with longer shot strings without swabbing than whether the BP is FF or FFF.

Accuracy can still be good but is never is quite as good as the swab-between-shots and slightly tighter fit to bore combination. There is usually a trade off. That's my experience and obviously there are other opinions and experiences out there.

My best accuracy standard for patched roundball is about a .5" group at 50 yards. My good accuracy standard for patched roundball is about a 1-1.5" inch group at 50 yards. My poor accuracy standard for patched roundball is about a 3" or larger group at 50 yards.

[Fly]

Man I love threads as this.Lot of stuff I have never tryed.But the one thing
that has never failed me is plain ole mink oil.Tandy leather has it as does
Track of the wolf.
Fly

[Alan]

Redwing Shoe's has a mink oil that is mink oil, beeswax and lanolin. It actually sounds about perfect. Been waiting on weather to get out and give it a try.