HP full wadcutter

[ShootNSteel]

Forgive me if this is a ridiculous idea, or widely being done without my knowing...I'm sure somebody has tried it anyway

Would it be worth wile taking a hollow base wadcutter and turning it around to make it a gaping hollow point wadcutter, say for 38 special? The idea here would be for a light self defense round in a j frame type revolver. The hp cavity would have to be quite a bit wider and deeper and the hollow base cavity to initiate low velocity expansion I'm guessing. I am probably going to take a button nose wadcutter mold and hollow point it the full button dia, to find out, unless this is a really stupid idea! Any takers?

[NoZombies]

Pretty common among urban myth and reloading experimenters.

Have fun!

[deltaenterprizes]

Buy some swaged HBWCs and experiment before you modify the mold.
This was the theory of the first "Hydro shock " bullets.

[Lon246]

I've done that with Speer HBWC in a .38.
They tumbled between 12-16 feet.
Sideways through the paper.

[I'll Make Mine]

I've fired a few of these also, quite a while ago in a Dan Wesson .357 Magnum. I wasn't all that impressed; I think I'd get similar terminal effects and better accuracy with a plated (aka TMJ) full wadcutter at higher velocity than normally used for target bullets (though you're ahead to keep even those subsonic, if you want to hit anything smaller than a watermelon at 20 feet).

[John in WI]

I did a lot of reading on the old reversed HBWC. Some people swear by them, especially for use in snubby .38's. There are some images floating around the web of recovered boolits that are expanded to the point where they look like shot glasses.

I certainly wouldn't want to be hit with one--but there are some other issues. Penetration suffers because of the enormous expansion, so in theory the wound would be of huge diameter, but not terribly deep. Also, as was already stated, they start tumbling just about right out of the barrel. Again--I wouldn't want to be hit with a keyholing boolit either, but I'm not sure that's an ideal situation.

The thing that actually WORRIES me about them is that there is a chance that the "skirt" can be blown off and lodging a piece of lead in the barrel. Pull the trigger again and "kaboom".

I have a Lee 2-holer full wadcutter that I bought specifically to get converted to a hollow point. I didn't realize that it is difficult to convert Lee double cavities because of where the steel pins are mounted in the mold blocks.

Anyway, I think you COULD make a wicked JWC round. I was thinking of making the hollow a square or pentagonal pyramid to help the boolit fracture along 4 or 5 lines (and open up like a "flower"). The idea was that you could use the idea behind the backwards WC, but get around the problem of the skirt blowing off by keeping some extra meat around it. If I had access to some tooling I think I would give it a shot. I was turned off when I finally found someone to do the conversion--and then quote me a price on it! Yikes!

I believe it's a sound idea. Maybe not a good round for tack-driving accuracy. But for making a big hole in something close, I think it could be tuned to get the job done. Good luck--I'd be interested to hear if you do anything with the idea. I'm still intrigued with it.

[geargnasher]

Forgive me if this is a ridiculous idea, or widely being done without my knowing...I'm sure somebody has tried it anyway

Would it be worth wile taking a hollow base wadcutter and turning it around to make it a gaping hollow point wadcutter, say for 38 special? The idea here would be for a light self defense round in a j frame type revolver. The hp cavity would have to be quite a bit wider and deeper and the hollow base cavity to initiate low velocity expansion I'm guessing. I am probably going to take a button nose wadcutter mold and hollow point it the full button dia, to find out, unless this is a really stupid idea! Any takers?

If you haven't done it yet, you'll be among few here! Give it a go.

Gear

[Piedmont]

The way you propose--making a button nose wadcutter into a HP-- would be the way to go. You can get the size and taper of cavity YOU want, not what the factory swager gives you. If it were me doing it I don't think I would go more than half the bullet length.

I have a single cavity Lyman wadcutter mold for sale if you need a donor mold for your experiment.

[Rangefinder]

You mean like these?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/hillsjim/DSCF1110.jpg

Or this one?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/hillsjim/Beaglesmold2.jpg

The constant need to play is the bane of our casting existence... And more importantly, where all the fun is... :D

Go for it!

[StrawHat]

...The thing that actually WORRIES me about them is that there is a chance that the "skirt" can be blown off and lodging a piece of lead in the barrel...

John, the skirt can seperate when loaded normally and fired too fast with a soft lead (swaged) boolit. If used as a hollow point, no seperation, the base would push it out.

[StrawHat]

...Would it be worth wile taking a hollow base wadcutter and turning it around to make it a gaping hollow point wadcutter, say for 38 special? ...

A very popular idea among reloaders and it makes an impressive looking round. My result were dismal. Boolits tumbled, expanded too much and generally gave poor result on small game. The swaged or soft lead wadcutter is great at 800 fps. Cast it a bit harder and you can get it to fly faster. A full caliber meplat at 1000 fps is impressive. The wadcutter boolit is a short range bullet at best, I get good results out to about 70 yards, after that, not so predictable.

[41mag]

Years ago I acquired a several of thousand Zero 146gr HBWC's for a friend who was shooting competition. At the time Zero would only ship to a dealer and I had a neighbor who was.

For my part of the deal I was given around 200 to play around with and immediately went with the backward loaded rounds. Loaded in this fashion in 38 SPL cases using my friends target load, these were just the ticket for dispatching rogue raccoons which were tearing my deer feeders apart.

Out to 20yds they shot just fine from both my Colt Service model 38 Spl. and my GP100's, and up within the 10-20 feet the coons would allow me to get while they were insistent on tearing the motor off my feeder, they would not fully penetrate a 12-15 pound one.

I didn't test them on anything else as this was my primary reason for using them in the first place. I had already tried a few different light weight jacketed but they still didn't work nearly as well. In the milk jug tests I did every jacketed i tried went into the second or third jug where the Zero's never exited the first, but did fully expand to the base of the cavity.

If your going to pour your own I would suggest charges of fast powder, and an alloy of almost pure lead. I doubt seriously if I ever exceeded 800fps with the any of loads I used with the Zero bullets, and in fact if the light was just right, using the target load my friend used you could actually see the bullets flying through the air, when the spotting scope was dialed in just right.

[uscra112]

Wonder what I did wrong? In my experiment the reversed HBWC was no less accurate than normal at 25 feet from a Colt Officers Model, 6 inch barrel. Load was 2.8 grains Bullseye, normal orientation boolit seated flush with case mouth, reversed boolit seated about 1/8 farther out to equalize case capacity.

[Blammer]

I've done that with Speer HBWC in a .38.
They tumbled between 12-16 feet.
Sideways through the paper.

Here too, but my range was out to about 25 yds, 6" bull sized accuracy.

and one old timer said to me when I commented about it hitting sideways.

"you think it would hurt less or more?" :)

for self defense, most encounters will be room sized or closer. I'd think it'd be fine.

[Forrest r]

Yes you can turn a hbwc molds/boolits around. I like the MiHec hbwc bullets for that, I can make them out of whatever alloy I want to get a speed/expansion combo & size the boolits to a good cylinder/boolit fit.

A better hbwc to use in snub nosed revolvers is spent shell cases. The thin brass will expand, tear, rip off, bend, fold, ect at very low speeds to warp drive. I use 9mm cases & make them into .357 hbwc’s.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38hbwcs.jpg

I also use 40s&w cases to make 44spl/mag hbwc’s.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/all_zps78033e85.jpg

The test pistols, a 38spl & a 44spl (charter arms).

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/charterpistols.jpg

[Forrest r]

A cocktail of 38’s I shot at the range today, MiHec 358640 large hp’s & penta points along with the 9mm hbwc’s turned around to make a hp from hell.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38cocktail.jpg

A cocktail of 44spl’s I shot today at the range, Mihec h&g 503 cloned penta point & lead hbwc along with the 40s&w hbwc’s turned around to make a hp from hell.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44cocktail.jpg

Some recovered bullets, the 9mm turned into a .357hbwc (158g) was shot with a mild load of 3.8g of universal clays. The 40s&w turned into a .430hbwc (220g) was shot with a mild load of 5g of universal clays. Neither load is a excessive, they are both very manageable in these small pistols.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/9mm40swshot.jpg

A top view of the recovered bullets. The 38 bullet that has an arrow pointing to it was shot at a milk jug of water. It went thru the jug & was dug out of a bowling pin that was set behind it. Alls I could see of the bullet was the base of it in the bowling pin. It doesn’t matter what these bullets hit at slow speeds, water, news paper, dirt, ect, the thin brass jacket opens up & the huge lead metplat that’s bonded to the core just keeps going.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/firedtop.jpg

Not bad for a couple of 2” bbl’s & middle of the road powder/loads.

[ShootNSteel]

Well thank you for the motivation! I think I'm going to have to scratch this itch. When I do I'll post the results.

[Forrest r]

A Mihec 44hbwc, it was cast from hill picking which tested out being scratched with a #3 pencil which is supposed to = 10bhn or 20 to 1 lead/tin alloy.

The load (mild) chronographed at 800fps out of my 6 1/2" bbl'd 624 44spl.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg

[Blammer]

looks like you swage the 9mm cases to size, do you anneal them too?

[JIMinPHX]

Would it be worth wile taking a hollow base wadcutter and turning it around to make it a gaping hollow point wadcutter, say for 38 special?

Some fishermen that I used to know in the north east would use rounds like that to quiet down sharks when they caught them. They wanted something that would be effective, but would not be likely to over-penetrate the shark & put a hole in the bottom of the boat. The exact words that they used to describe the results of the backwards HB wadcutter in a .38 were - "it's just like hittin em with an oar". Apparently, that was their way of saying that they were satisfied with the results.:wink:

[Texasflyboy]

Would it be worth wile taking a hollow base wadcutter and turning it around to make it a gaping hollow point wadcutter, say for 38 special?

I did it. Using a two cavity Number 50 Hensley & Gibbs mould I changed a standard wadcutter into a dual use mould. You can use it either as a Hollow Base Wadcutter or as a Wide Hollow Point.

Link to the article:

Hensley & Gibbs Two Cavity #50 Hollow Point Conversion (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90570)



Photo:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/aa/7.jpg

[Forrest r]

No, I do not anneal the 9mm cases.

[StrawHat]

No, I do not anneal the 9mm cases.

So how do you size the web down to the correct diameter?

[Forrest r]

I use a custom draw die 2+" long.

[earthling121757]

Forrest, would you be so kind as to go into a bit more detail on how you make the 44 bullets? I've been making some 357s from 380 Auto brass, which I draw down, but it seems the 40 S&W is a bit on the small side for .429 bullets.

[Forrest r]

It’s interesting you mentioned 380’s because I’m using an expander die that was made for a 380. Any expander die from a 380acp, 9mm or 38spl will work.

I took the old expander die & cut it off at the step that was in it. I wanted a flat surface to expand the 40s&w cases. Here’s a pic of the 380acp expander die that has been cut down. You can see in the pic where the arrow is pointing where the top of the lead is by the bump out in the case.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/40sw380rim.jpg

I don’t own a 40s&w so I used a shell case holder from a 38spl to hold the 40s&w cases in the single stage press. I would use a 38/357 158g lwsc boolit to expand the 40s&w case. It was just a matter of setting the 380acp expander die to the right depth. I put a 40s&w shell case in the shell holder, put a 38/357 158g lswc in it & ran the ram all the way up. Then I adjusted the 380acp expander die down until it made contact, then I fine tuned the die adjusting it down in small increments & measuring the 40s&w cases as I went until I got the desired dai (.430).

After the 380acp expander die was set & locked down the rest is easy.
Clean the 40s&w cases
Use a brush & put plumbers flux in the 40s&w case
Put a 38/357 lswc in the 40s&w case
Put it all in the press & pull the lever all the way up, that will bump the 40s&w case up to .340
Put the bumped 40s&w cases in a pan & heat them until the lead melts, bonding the lead to the brass jackets
Let the cool & run them thru a lee .430 sizer

That how I made what you see in the picture.

[earthling121757]

Forrest, thank you so much for the info... got my gears a turnin'. Think I'll try to scrounge up an old 7 Mouser sizing die, should work to fold the case mouths in the same way I do for the .357s from 380's I make.