Curiousity of 45acp and 45colt

[newton]

So I have a purely curiosity question.

I was just looking around at the different opinions on using Herco in the 45colt. And while looking I ran across an article where someone was testing the acp cylinder in a BH, using the heavier colt boolits.

What was interesting is that with a charge of say 6 or so grains of Unique or Herco(among others) he was getting the same velocity as a 9 or so grain charge of the same powders in a colt case.

So is it the smaller case that produces that much more pressure with a smaller amount of powder? I knew that less case room equals more pressure, but I never would have thought that it would increase that much.

Seems to me that if this is the case then it would be almost more economical to shoot the acp cylinder in a BH convertable unless your trying to push over 1000 fps.

Any thoughts on this or anyone else did some testing? I am really hoping to get a chrony for Christmas so I know for sure I will test if I get it.

[newton]

Yea, did some more searching and there is an old thread on here where someone was getting the same results. It was a higher charge, around 7 grains, but I find that interesting. It seems to me that not only would you be saving a couple grains per shot, but I would think it would be less position sensitive. Less room for the powder to move around it.

Yep. I am gonna have to do me some testing one of these days.

[scattershot]

Another advantage that's easily overlooked is that you can spot a double charge in the ACP case right away.

[x101airborne]

I played with the 45 acp heavy loaded in my smith 625 PD. One problem I had was the ACP case got thick quickly and did not allow a crimp on some of my 250 grainers and up. If I tried to seat them deeply enough to crimp, then the case would bulge and chambering would be difficult. I just gave up on the whole thing.

[newton]

That's one good thing about the lee boolit. It's plenty short enough to get the right OAL, but still have the heavy weight. I've already shot some, but only with plinking loads. I think I've stayed down around 4 grains with unique.

I might just see if I can dig up some +p brass and load some. I know the gun can handle it, but not sure the brass can.

[Dale53]

I have had no problems with the NOE mould for the Lyman 454424 bullet (250 grs with WW+2% tin). Here is a picture in auto rim cases (same interior as the .45 ACP):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

I could not chamber a cast bullet .45 ACP in my Ruger Convertible until I reamed both cylinder throats to .4525". After that, not a problem at all.

I get excellent accuracy and black powder .45 Colt ballistics in the .45 ACP (and auto rim) with Unique (7.0 grs gives me a chronographed 900+ fps). This is a powerful and useful load.

NOTE: I only shoot these in my Ruger Convertible and my 625 (.45 ACP) Smiths - they are too heavy for the 1911 and I firmly believe that the load would shortly damage the 1911.

Dale53

[newton]

Thanks for sharing dale. I have heard that the AR has higher pressure capability. I wouldn't at all be afraid to use a stout load in them. Do you use regular brass in the acp with that 7 grain unique load?

[Dale53]

Actually, I don't believe that the Auto Rim brass has higher pressure capability. The modern revolvers do, however.

Yes, I have used that load in .45 ACP brass without issue (in a revolver).

Dale53

[RobS]

Potential for 250ish grains or under but not so good for heavies. I shoot heavier boolits from my 45 revolvers so it doesn't work toward my reloading/shooting needs to explore the 45 ACP cylinder. However if I was shooting lighter boolits I would think about a 45 ACP cylinder.

[tacklebury]

Good article on uploading .45 acp here:
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

I've tested and verified all his data with my own too. Little snappier than I liked with 12 gr. but 10 was ok. ;)

[newton]

I have the BH convertible. So I got the cylinder for it. I just finished, more or less, working up a good hunting load for the colt and then happened to run accross this thing about the acp.

I just found it interesting that the colt load could be duplicated, seeing how it would be from the same gun and all, with the acp for less powder. I never considered it before. I am not sure I will do much testing. I have no way of knowing what it's doing until I get a chronograph. But I am wondering what the performance will be like.

The only difference besides less powder would also be a slightly longer time for the boolit to be out of the case. By my estimation, only around 3/8", but in a boolits "life" that is a long time.

It's all interesting.

[44MAG#1]

It really is not hard to understand. The SAAMI spec pressure for the 45 Colt is 14000 psi for the 45 ACP the non+p is 21000 psi.
The reason you get more velocity with less powder in the 45 ACP is the increased pressure.
If you were to run the 45 Colt to 21000 psi you would beat the 45 ACP and be able to do it with a heavier bullet.
See it really is common sense really.

[newton]

Good article on uploading .45 acp here:
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

I've tested and verified all his data with my own too. Little snappier than I liked with 12 gr. but 10 was ok. ;)

Thanks for the link. I think I have read that a long time ago, but forgot. I wish he would have done some testing with the 250+ grain boolits. But as he states, a chronograph is a needed tool to do these things with.

But I guess he does very specifically address the issue about using different brass. He very clearly uses standard 45 auto brass. I think the reason you can do this is only because of the gun. I think if someone were to try uploading the 45 auto in a semi or something then that's where the thicker brass comes into play.

He is right though. 45 auto brass is MUCH easier to come across and a whole lot cheaper.

[Bullshop]

A couple things I would like to add. One is that you can or at least I can in my Ruger 45 convertable acp cylinder use a longer cartridge OAL and very nearly equal the volume of a LC case with an acp case.
I do this with 250gn swc and is how my acp cylinder shoots its best groups. Draw back is it leaves some lube groove out of the case so you cant head for the hills with a pocket full of ammo. Also no crimp groove to use this way but some crimp can be applied to the drive band. Right or wrong I do it and it works for me.
Another thing I would like to add to the point someone made about availability of 45 acp brass. It is true and is why I really like the acp option in the Ruger BH, Bisley in my case. Anyway the point I wanted to make and few are probably aware of is that 45 acp brass can also be used in a 44 mag. WHAT!!! Yes that is right I said a 44 mag.
I size the 45 acp case in a 44 mag/special die without a shell holder in the ram but instead a small steel plate or thick washer lying on top of the ram.
Set the sizer die so that the case will be pushed in far enough to size the web and so create a small rim. It takes a press with good leverage and a good sizing lube like Bullsize but its not that hard. Then just use a flat punch to tap the cases out of the die and you have a 44 acp case. With the way things are going politicaly knowing things like this about how to keep your guns shooting using unconventional methods will be a good thing. Try for yourself and see I am not crazy after all, or maybe just not as much as thought.

[Wally]

So I have a purely curiosity question.

I was just looking around at the different opinions on using Herco in the 45colt. And while looking I ran across an article where someone was testing the acp cylinder in a BH, using the heavier colt boolits.

What was interesting is that with a charge of say 6 or so grains of Unique or Herco(among others) he was getting the same velocity as a 9 or so grain charge of the same powders in a colt case.

So is it the smaller case that produces that much more pressure with a smaller amount of powder? I knew that less case room equals more pressure, but I never would have thought that it would increase that much.

Seems to me that if this is the case then it would be almost more economical to shoot the acp cylinder in a BH convertable unless your trying to push over 1000 fps.

Any thoughts on this or anyone else did some testing? I am really hoping to get a chrony for Christmas so I know for sure I will test if I get it.

In My Ruger .45 BHK Convertible......


.45 ACP 454190 bullet 5.0 Bullseye 840 FPS Muzzle Velocity

.45 Colt 454190 bullet 6.0 Bullseye 810 FPS Muzzle Velocity

.45 Colt 454190 bullet 7.0 Red Dot 907 FPS Muzzle Velocity

[Bullshop]

Oh yea one more thing I wanted to mention was that I save all my 45 LC cases after the mouth begins to crack. When I get a bunch I trim them to 45 acp/ar length and enjoy a second life time from them. These will work in either the LC or acp cylinder.
Neither my acp or LC cylinder will accept ar cases as the rims are too thick. At least that was true of the Star Line brass I tried.

[newton]

Oh yea one more thing I wanted to mention was that I save all my 45 LC cases after the mouth begins to crack. When I get a bunch I trim them to 45 acp/ar length and enjoy a second life time from them. These will work in either the LC or acp cylinder.
Neither my acp or LC cylinder will accept ar cases as the rims are too thick. At least that was true of the Star Line brass I tried.

Good info to know for sure. I wondered if a rimmed case would fit on the acp cylinder and still function. I do not have any AR cases so I never tried, and the colt case is way too long. I did not know if Ruger made them a little tighter to the backside of the frame or something. But now I will for sure keep my brass if it ever gets cracked.

[Moonie]

newton, here is a very interesting article. Not something I will do as we have 4 1911's in the family. but perhaps with 45 super marked brass:

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41

[tacklebury]

It really is not hard to understand. The SAAMI spec pressure for the 45 Colt is 14000 psi for the 45 ACP the non+p is 21000 psi.
The reason you get more velocity with less powder in the 45 ACP is the increased pressure.
If you were to run the 45 Colt to 21000 psi you would beat the 45 ACP and be able to do it with a heavier bullet.
See it really is common sense really.

Actually in the blackhawk frame, a lot of loads can be taken to 30K + safely. .45 Colt is only saami spec'd so low because of all the old firearms out there that shoot it and old balloon head brass. I load a 300 gr. bullet and 21 gr. H110 for a great bear/big game load and it is definitely not 21k hehe

In my carbine I also load these same bullets with Reloader7 Rifle powder. Took a deer last year and he went down like struck by lightning with that 300 gr. ;)

[44MAG#1]

I think most are well aware that a full sized blackhawk can be run into the 30-32 thousand CUP range but I was using the pressures that are common with a 45 ACP to use as an example.
The +P 45 Auto rating is 23,000 psi also.
Still the higher pressure of a SAAMI speced load for a 45 ACP as opposed to the SAAMI speced load for the 45 Colt is where the difference comes in even though the 45 ACP uses less powder.
It is still common sense as there are really nothing in ballistics that are magical.
I run my New Vaquero with 181/2 gr to 19 gr 2400 with a Mihec 270 SAA bullet at times and it beats a 45 ACP soundly.
Still if a +p 230 gr load in a 45 ACP at 930 fps is being used all one has to push a 270 gr bullet in a 45 Colt to equal it in momentum is 800 fps which is loafing using 6.3 to 6.3 gr Bullseye in the 45 Colt case which is low pressure.

[44MAG#1]

Hodgdons list a 325 gr cast at 21/H110 as a starting load at just over 18,000 CUP's.