Price check for a .54 cal breech load

[pmer]

I have a chance to buy a Armisport? (Italian) 54 cal percussion rifle. I don't really know much about these but it looks fun to try.

It has been sitting a while and not sure about the bore yet. It looks like a 1874 falling block but it is a percussion rifle.

If the bore is okay what would be fair to offer for the peice? I hope I'm not too vague.

Thanks guys.

[pmer]

I opened the same question in muzzle loading thinking it maybe better there.

[MikeS]

It sounds like it's a replica of the earlier Sharps rifle, I think the year was 1863 or 1869 I don't recall at the moment. It uses a paper cartridge for loading, so it's not technically speaking a muzzle loader. I have no hands on experience with Armi Sport, but I've read lots of posts saying their quality isn't that great. If you have a chance to handle the gun before you buy it, you will have a better idea of it's condition, both in regards to how it's been treated, and also in how it was initially assembled. I think these go for around $1000.00 or so new, so if the rifle is used, it should be worth considerably less than that amount.

[drcook]

Spend some quality Google time and do some reading about the 1863 design itself and the peculiarities of it. Such as the "floating sleeve" that seals the bore/chamber and can get stuck if not cleaned properly. Include the word "review" in your google searches.

Keep in mind 1 or 2 people complaining/b*tch*n' are just one or 2 people complaining/b*tch*n'.
More than that indicates a possible trend. Include the different manufacturers of 1863's, such as Pedersoli, Shiloh, etc.

A few hours time spent at the computer can get you knowledgeable enough to evaluate to gun.

here is a thread on castboolits itself talking about these

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=27181

[pmer]

Thanks for the info guys. I did bring it home. I wasn't sure where to post this one. It is a IAB Armi Sport. I looked at drcook's link and have to free up that floating plate.

I posted a pic of it here. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=171397

Sorry to have it spread out over to different sections. :mrgreen:

It should hold up OK for me, I don't think I'll pour thousands of rounds through it.

[bob208]

they shoot good. like anything black powder you have to keep things lubed. if it not lubed then things will start to hang up. don't use petrolem based lubes. we always used crisco. keep a bottle of windex handy it frees up bp guns that get gummed up.

[pmer]

I live about an hour from Track Of The Wolf and picked up some supplies. Bought some ffg and the 435 grain Christmas tree boolits. I got to shoot it 3 times today and it was pretty neat but its tumbling boolits. I had some trouble with CCI musket caps setting the charge. I trickled a few flakes of powder down the nipple and that got the lead flying!

One thing though is that the block doesn't fall down far enough to let a boolit go into the chamber. Had to pull pin and lower it a little more. I think I see the fix for that but I'm wondering about the sideways holes in the target. More fun to come with this one.

What a drool fest at the Track of the Wolf.

[Dan Cash]

Your bullets tumble because they don't fit the bore. The only fix is to slug the bore, measure the slug and obtain bullets or more likely a mould that will produce a very soft bullet at least groove diameter if not .001 to .002 over groove diameter. A pure lead bore diameter bullet may work too; just depends upon the gun. If you are not using Bloack Powder, difficult ignition seems a standard complaint. Look at the Shiloh Sharps forum for specific information regarding the percussion Sharps. They are able weapons.

[pmer]

I tried to make a couple paper cartridges. 75 grains of FFg. I thought I would run them over the bands because it was tumbling the other day. I tried to slug the bore but had trouble getting a measurement, I think because it has a odd number of lands. I pushed one from both ends and could see light looking from the breech when I pushed one in from the muzzle.

[curator]

Pmer,

I have one of the IAB Sharps "paper-cutter" carbines and have had the same lack of success as you shooting the 435 grain "Christmas tree" bullets. When I slugged my bore I found a land diameter of .545 and a groove diameter of .561. My gun has a twist rate of about 1 in>72" which is way too slow to stabilize the longer ring-tail bullet. After much frustration and lots of wasted powder and lead I hit upon loading a .570 round ball instead of the various bullets that are recommended by people who have different guns or don't actually shoot them for accuracy. Using nitrated 9# paper tubes wound on a 5/8 rod, I load the .570 round ball lubed with dried-on Lee liquid alox, a full .45 Colt case of Cream O Wheat cereal under the ball, then 60 grains of FFg black powder. I cut the paper "pig-tail" with nail clippers to expose the charge before loading this cartridge into the chamber. I get pretty good accuracy with this load considering the crude sights. At 50 yards I can keep all my shots on a 7" paper plate which is a MAJOR improvement over all previous bullets and loads. I also had continuous miss-fires before carefully opening up the flash channel in the breech-block. Mine was about .085" from the factory. Taking care to not damage the threads in the plug-screw hole I ran a .125" drill through to the vent on the face of the breech. I also opened the vent as well although this was almost that size to begin with. Using anti-size compound on the gas-check plate collar where it fits into the breech block and an occasional squirt of Balistol on the breech block sides keeps the gun shooting all day. An occasional damp patch down the bore from the breech end does help with accuracy if shooting in dry weather. Be sure to completely disassemble the breech block for cleaning and use anti-seize compound on flash hole plug screw, gas-check plate collar, and nipple threads when reassemble otherwise these parts will give you real trouble when next you attempt to take it apart.

[Nobade]

Wow, with numbers like that it looks like a good candidate for a reline job.

[pmer]

Thanks Curator for all the information. I'll have to keep a eye out for .570 round balls and give them a try. I never paper patched before either. So far it has been interesting..

[John Boy]

pmer - regardless of what you paid for the IAB Armi Sport - it has a common nickname for the IAB ... It's Always Broke.
Armi Sport's firearms quality is poor and has been. Sorry that you invested your money for this rifle. What you should have done is looked for a used Pedersoli Gibbs 1863 Sharps. These replica rifles are the Go To rifle for the LRML Target Competition Shooters out to 1200 yds with accuracy
A used one will go for the price as a new IAB

[NHGrumpyGramps]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps replica and I had a lot of ignition problems using the CCI "Re-enactor" musket caps and would go through a dozen to get one shot. I found that CCI is now producing these caps with a much weaker charge than they previously used due to complaints they had from skirmish re-enactors that the old caps would fragment and cause injuries. I finally found some RWS muskets caps and all my problems went away. Have not had a misfire since then. RWS caps are hard to find, but well worth the search.

[Nobade]

What you should have done is looked for a used Pedersoli Gibbs 1863 Sharps. These replica rifles are the Go To rifle for the LRML Target Competition Shooters out to 1200 yds with accuracy
A used one will go for the price as a new IAB

The '63 Sharps and the Gibbs are two completely different rifles. The Gibbs is a long range muzzleloader and the Sharps is a capping breech loader.

BTW, get your RWS caps from Crater Fireworks. They usually have them in stock.

[pmer]

I was in a Gander Mountain today and seen some CCI Liberty 6 petal musket caps. The CCI caps I have at home are 4 petal say for reinactment and these say extra power on the tin. So maybe these are like the RWS caps. They were $2.97 per hundred.

John Boy's "It's always broke" reminds me of the BSA motorcycle phrase - "Bsatrad stauled again" LOL

[Lead pot]

There are a few of us that go to the extreme with reloading for th small bore .22 rimfire ;)
You be surprised the accuracy you will get shooting the old black powder loads. 4.2 to 4.5 grains of 3Fg or 4FG will shoot just as well as some of the highest top of the line match ammo now on the market.
Below I have a comparison of a load test at 50 yards I shot on a calm day using my .22 Winchester Low Wall using some Wolf ammo I had that always shoots very good in this rifle so I shot 15 rounds of each to see a comparison between them.
The first 5 rounds I shot after the Wolf with a clean barrel are on the bottom left. Those rings are 1" in diameter. Shot the second 5 rounds without cleaning and the group tightened up. The third group tightened up to what you see.
I didn't have any more loaded to shoot.
I have shot up boxes with out cleaning at a dueling tree with a friend that was using his 52 winchester with a target spot scope and I had a Leupold VX-3 6.5-20x40mm on the lowwall and he had no advantage over me. :-)
Small bore black powder is fun and all together a different feel and sound when that little round goes off. not to mention the puff of smoke that gets some attention when you start shooting :shock:
Kurt


http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1478.jpg
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1482-1.jpg
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492.jpg

[NHGrumpyGramps]

The older CCI musket caps were 6 petal (not sure if they were marked "Liberty") and these had a stronger charge. As far as I know CCI discontinued these so if Gander has them they must be old stock. Price of $2.97 is good as I have seen the RWS caps at over $10/hundred. Might not be a bad idea to try a tin if you can get them.