Milk jug penetration test

[outdoorfan]

I don't know how many people bother shooting S-L-O-W loads to see just how well (or poorly) they do, but I did today. The results shocked me. I used to push every load in every gun (revolver or rifle) to the max. In the last couple years I've slowed the revolver way down for a variety of reasons.

So, today I shot the .45 Colt. The load was the RCBS 45 270 SAA (Mihec's mold) at around 575-600 fps muzzle velocity. The boolit is 285 grains, and it fully penetrated 10 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water. I found the boolit in the eleventh jug.

At that velocity there was still enough oomph to burst the first jug, throwing it off the board it was on. The second jug was mildly split, and just holes in and out of the rest of them.

[littlejack]

That is quite impressive penitration for the low velocity of the boolit.
Jack

[HangFireW8]

Were the jugs all touching? Have you tried it the other way?

[outdoorfan]

Were the jugs all touching? Have you tried it the other way?

They were all touching, for the most part.

[303Guy]

Such mild loads can be a heap of fun. Have you done accuracy tests? That would be interesting. But that penetration test is interesting too. Penetration does decrease with increasing velocity when the boolit deforms or otherwise loses energy/velocity rapidly on impact. I wonder what the science is behind that?

[outdoorfan]

Such mild loads can be a heap of fun. Have you done accuracy tests? That would be interesting. But that penetration test is interesting too. Penetration does decrease with increasing velocity when the boolit deforms or otherwise loses energy/velocity rapidly on impact. I wonder what the science is behind that?

Yes, I've done the jug tests with increasing velocity, and using lead HP's too.

I haven't tested accuracy with that load. I have tested 5.2 grains Red Dot behind that same boolit. Velocity was around 675 fps. It shot around 3 inches at 50 yards. Not too bad by my standards from a 4 5/8 barrel with open sights.

[JeffinNZ]

I'm not surprised. That's why the Brits used the .455 Webley.

I once scored a few slabs of pastry margarine. They were about 15 inches long and 6x8 on the ends. I tried some penetration tests with my .32-20 using a 311008 at 1030fps. Range was 50m and the boolit went clean through the full length of the slab then embedded itself in a pine fence post 150 yards further on. Scared me a bit.

[StrawHat]

Never tried it with water jugs but I used to hunt with the 44 Magnum. Keith loads were good and I had some a bit hotter. It took me a few years to realize my hunting partner was getting better results with his 45 long Colt loaded to black powder velocities. Eventually, I sold my 44s and now use the long Colt or ACP round for anything that requires a large caliber handgun boolit.

[farmallcrew]

Nice. Im still in the mid powder range. Never wanted to have hot loads poissbly blow up. But I'm going to start thinking about going to the light side. Saves powder.

[Freightman]

Try your 44 mag with black powder, very accurate and enjoyable to shoot, clean up not a problem.

[fredj338]

If all you want is penetration, then yo ucna get that w/ a heavy fo caliber solid lead flat point @ modest vel. My 285gr/45colt loads going 1000fps penetrate further in wetpack than my 404jeffery w/ soft points going 2200fps!

[SlippShodd]

Last spring I was playing with hollowpointing my 200 grain SWCs out of the .45 ACP. 5.6 grains of HP38 for about 850 over a chrono. Used a softer than normal alloy and lined up 7 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water. Shot at 15 yards and fully expected to retrieve a boolit from a jug. Punched holes through all 7 and skipped off the berm behind and into oblivion.
I was sad.

mike

[outdoorfan]

Last spring I was playing with hollowpointing my 200 grain SWCs out of the .45 ACP. 5.6 grains of HP38 for about 850 over a chrono. Used a softer than normal alloy and lined up 7 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water. Shot at 15 yards and fully expected to retrieve a boolit from a jug. Punched holes through all 7 and skipped off the berm behind and into oblivion.
I was sad.

mike

That's interesting. I recently ran similar tests with my 45 Colt. I'm guessing that the combination of the HP in your boolit, the alloy, and the velocity you shot it at didn't allow the HP to open up. Otherwise, I'm confident you would have retrieved the boolit.

The other way to tell is to observe how the jugs (especially the first couple in line) reacted at the shot. If the first one (or possibly the 2nd one too) burst pretty good and/or got thrown, then I reckon the HP opened up (perhaps even just a little). But, I don't know what the mepper is on that SWC of yours?

[outdoorfan]

If all you want is penetration, then yo ucna get that w/ a heavy fo caliber solid lead flat point @ modest vel. My 285gr/45colt loads going 1000fps penetrate further in wetpack than my 404jeffery w/ soft points going 2200fps!

:shock::holysheep

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Throw those loads in a rifle and you get a load that sounds about the same as a .22 but puts a nice big hole in your target.

[**oneshot**]

I once tried to stop a 50cal 350gr slug from my flintlock. took 5 large cat litter jugs end to end and a carpet hung loose to catch it.
I was very very impressed with it. probably 1000fps

[44man]

A function of boolit weight, not velocity.
But a slow boolit that penetrates a deer without energy is not enough. You must disrupt tissue in passage.

[outdoorfan]

A function of boolit weight, not velocity.
But a slow boolit that penetrates a deer without energy is not enough. You must disrupt tissue in passage.

Jim, in your experience, how many jugs have to burst to meet that criteria? I've seen your pictures of the .475 going through all those jugs you lined up, but I'm sure that isn't the minimum requirement.

I thought two burst jugs would be adequate. However, this slow load was only for testing and not for big game of any kind.

[44man]

Jim, in your experience, how many jugs have to burst to meet that criteria? I've seen your pictures of the .475 going through all those jugs you lined up, but I'm sure that isn't the minimum requirement.

I thought two burst jugs would be adequate. However, this slow load was only for testing and not for big game of any kind.
I suppose you need to send two sky high, split another and continue for some more.
The burst is important with the jugs. Water should go very high and also soak you.
It is a hard call for sure as to what a boolit does in an animal compared to tests.
Penetration alone is not enough and super fast expansion is not enough.
Actually I like the .44 mag with a hard WLN or WFN for deer. But they might not be right for self defense. Way too much and fast penetration on a BG. The problem is animals are different then humans so to compare is wrong. This is a thorn when comparing boolit function. I wish guys would keep self defense out of hunting results.
When you shoot a BG it is one lung, etc. Deer are shot in both lungs. You kill a deer with one shot but keep your carry gun in action until the mag is empty. Double tap or more. A creep hit with a nine or .38 might still kill you. Ten mags of .25's might make him angry. One .45 ACP is enough. The .357 and ACP is still best for a BG.
Then there are those that want to shoot deer with a .38. Maybe you will kill but don't cry with losses. The .357 is marginal on deer or larger. Back in the day it was touted but the .45 Colt and .44 mag still put it to shame.
Now the .475 might be too large for deer, not in my estimation. It is ideal. Better then any other caliber and extends to very large animals. To kill fast without meat loss is my way. I hate deer that run and suffer.

[NoZombies]

I wouldn't use it for anything but small game, but a 115 grain bullet from a .32 moving at 650 FPS fully penetrated 4 jugs of water and continued downrange. High BC for caliber with that bullet, but far more penetration than expected!

[44man]

Penetration itself can be amazing and what stops it fast is either boolit breakup or quick expansion.
My .45 Colt with a 335 gr LBT went through a 16" tree and cut a thick grape vine in half, I could not find the boolit in the ground. It is 1160 fps.
I told how I stuck a .58 Minie' ball in the barrel after lapping the mold. I pushed it down and dribbled a little powder in the nipple. It buried itself full depth in a 2x4. I might have stuffed 1/2 gr in there. I heard and felt the ball go through the barrel slow but I think it would go through a man. That will make you sit up and take notice!
If a boolit does not deform and you raise the velocity but hold it at about 1350 fps, penetration increases but internal damage will be good on deer. Staying the same speed but increasing boolit weight and diameter, penetration again increases and internal damage goes way up.
It works so good with a FN boolit I expected more velocity with a hard boolit to do extreme internal damage but I was mistaken. Penetration was more but the boolit at over 1600 fps went through deer with almost no internal damage. I have come to the conclusion that the pressure wave from the flat nose spreads out to cause a large secondary channel that collapses and removes tissue from the boolit path. I introduced expansion and went too far only to destroy half a deer!
Penetration can be extreme at low or fast velocities but to make a boolit a good hunting tool, you still must control boolit work inside an animal.
A large slow boolit will actually cut more tissue then a very fast one if the lead is hard.
Penetration, muzzle energy or velocity is never what works when hunting. No matter if you use jacketed or cast, it is always how the projectile works in passage.
The size of the animal also will change what you use.

[Shooter6br]

Anybody use a "wet pack" to test HP expansion /penetration?

[Cowboy_Dan]

I had an idea the other day to jam fill milk jugs with narrow strips of paper and saturate it with water on range day. In theory, it would make it easier to transport it, but I'm not sure if it would work. I can't come up why it wouldn't, but we all know that doesn't mean too much.

[shoot-n-lead]

Penetration itself can be amazing and what stops it fast is either boolit breakup or quick expansion.
My .45 Colt with a 335 gr LBT went through a 16" tree and cut a thick grape vine in half, I could not find the boolit in the ground. It is 1160 fps.
I told how I stuck a .58 Minie' ball in the barrel after lapping the mold. I pushed it down and dribbled a little powder in the nipple. It buried itself full depth in a 2x4. I might have stuffed 1/2 gr in there. I heard and felt the ball go through the barrel slow but I think it would go through a man. That will make you sit up and take notice!
If a boolit does not deform and you raise the velocity but hold it at about 1350 fps, penetration increases but internal damage will be good on deer. Staying the same speed but increasing boolit weight and diameter, penetration again increases and internal damage goes way up.
It works so good with a FN boolit I expected more velocity with a hard boolit to do extreme internal damage but I was mistaken. Penetration was more but the boolit at over 1600 fps went through deer with almost no internal damage. I have come to the conclusion that the pressure wave from the flat nose spreads out to cause a large secondary channel that collapses and removes tissue from the boolit path. I introduced expansion and went too far only to destroy half a deer!
Penetration can be extreme at low or fast velocities but to make a boolit a good hunting tool, you still must control boolit work inside an animal.
A large slow boolit will actually cut more tissue then a very fast one if the lead is hard.
Penetration, muzzle energy or velocity is never what works when hunting. No matter if you use jacketed or cast, it is always how the projectile works in passage.
The size of the animal also will change what you use.

All of this is well and good...but most of us have shot a few deer with a 250gr cast bullet that dropped in it's tracks. You cannot come up with a bullet/load combo that works the same way on all deer. Rifle rounds are typically more effective than handgun rounds...and they do not perform the same on all deer. Deer are individuals and they react differently to trauma. I have found, in my limited experience, that putting a cast bullet through the shoulders damages very little meat and anchors most of them immediately. I am sure that you have killed more deer than me and you have probably have found something different that works for you. But, we have both found something that works.

[fredj338]

Anybody use a "wet pack" to test HP expansion /penetration?
It's what i use most often, bullet manuf all used wetpack before gel. Expansion is almost identical to gel or flesh, just less penetration, as the paper "stacks" up in front of the slowing bullet. Wetpack is easier to work with than gel or water. With well placed shots, you can get 5shots into one phone book stack for handguns.

[Hickory]

I had an idea the other day to jam fill milk jugs with narrow strips of paper and saturate it with water on range day. In theory, it would make it easier to transport it, but I'm not sure if it would work. I can't come up why it wouldn't, but we all know that doesn't mean too much.

I spent a whole day once on something like this, only I stuffed the jugs with paper and water. When all was complete, I added more paper pushing it down with a dowel rod, then topping them off with water and the cap.
For the test I used 40 jugs. 20 in a row and 10 on both sides of the last 10 jugs.
The jugs along the last 10 jugs was to "catch" the bullet if it strayed from it's path.
The bullet I was testing was a Speer 270 gr. 44 caliber.
At the shot water and paper went everywhere.
The bullet went very straight through 17 jugs and stopped in the 18th jug.
Yea, I spent a whole day on this test. A couple hours setting it up, and the rest of the day cleaning it up.
Good advice for all, forget the paper in the milk jugs.

[catskinner]

I've tested cast bullets in wet paper. No handguns rifles only. 358winchester with a 260 gr hollow point at 2000fps. First 6 inches had a hole 1-2 inches in diameter and was full of lead chips. What was left after the hp blew off penetrated about another 20 inches.

[fredj338]

Wetpack testing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)
This is a Nosler partition, but can you tell which one was pulled from wetpack vs the one pulled from a 600# kudu bull?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/210GRNP.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/210GRNP.jpg.html)

[JimP.]

i use soaked news print for bullet testing. 45/70 500 gr rn at 1250 fps completely penetrated 36 inches of wet news print. had to add an additional foot of soaked news print to stop it and the bullet went 42 inches. the bullet had mushroomed to .700 and still kept going. a remington 400 grain fp at 1500 fps made a huge cavity after entering the soaked news print and stopped 22 inches into the soaked news print. huge mushroom. i like using the wet soaked news print to test rather than water cause i get to see the cavity the bullet makes after entering the soaked news print. JimP.

[jmort]

"This is a Nosler partition, but can you tell which one was pulled from wetpack vs the one pulled from a 600# kudu bull?"

No, and that is Exhibit "A" of why wet pack is so good as a test medium. Water is hard on a bullet and will open or expand a bullet that would not do so on a live target, giving false confidence. Wet newspaper is an excellent test medium. It is what the Linebaugh Seminar uses with and without a large bone, i.e. The "Bone Box"

[44man]

I have not caught a boolit from the .475 or .44 in water jugs, need too many, probably 20. Never tried the .500 JRH yet except on one jug at a time. I love to shoot jugs but a lot of work and I need a huge length of board to fit them all. I need to find someone to save me jugs.

[44man]

All of this is well and good...but most of us have shot a few deer with a 250gr cast bullet that dropped in it's tracks. You cannot come up with a bullet/load combo that works the same way on all deer. Rifle rounds are typically more effective than handgun rounds...and they do not perform the same on all deer. Deer are individuals and they react differently to trauma. I have found, in my limited experience, that putting a cast bullet through the shoulders damages very little meat and anchors most of them immediately. I am sure that you have killed more deer than me and you have probably have found something different that works for you. But, we have both found something that works.
Since going to the .475 and JRH, almost every deer is on the ground before recoil stops. Out of 5 this season, all dropped but one, it made 20 yards. I lose almost no meat. I am still surprised to see them belly up so fast.
I get more meat damage and blood shot with the .44 then with these. From what I have seen, these are more affective then a rifle with more meat to eat. Even behind the shoulder shots have been dropping them. I did not hit a spine this season. The big eight point was hit behind the shoulders at 50 yards and dropped instantly.
You need to try a .475 or .480 once to see, I still scratch my head. I never seen so much energy centered in a deer with no meat messed up.
I use a 310 Lee or my 330 gr in the .44 at 1316 fps, a 420 in the .475 at 1348 fps and a 440 gr in the JRH at near 1350 fps. Hard boolits except I made half the nose on the JRH with 3# of pure and 1# of WW, it was a hole punch before. It works like the .475 now.
I have shot many deer with my .45 Vaquero at 1160 fps and the reaction is not the same, many walk off, stand until they bleed out. I have to think more energy in the right place is better.
The .45 could benefit from a HP but I would never put one in the other guns.
This is why I like the .475. I shot this buck below the chin at 76 yards, broke the neck, took out some short ribs and the boolit went right below the back straps full length to exit from the ham. I cut to the hole. Back straps not harmed. Guts not touched. 123565
Things are amazing.

[5Shot]

So...1350 is the target velocity for really hammering them?

[TCLouis]

Ran out of milk jugs the first time I tried to capture a boolit from the lowly 380 out of a Taurus T738.
Had I jumped in and put up enough jugs the second or third attempt, but no I just kept adding 1 jug at a time.

I did recover a perfectly reusable 380 boolit lying on top of the ground in the impact area after the next heavy rain.

I was worried about under penetration, now worried about over penetration, but Hornady is substitute when carrying for social occasions

[snuffy]

When I use water jugs to test, I line them up end-to-end on a board. that gives the boolits a little further to travel in each jug.

123641

Wet paper is just too heavy and difficult to dispose of. It's also a lot denser then flesh, will give false expansion.

Another trick is to put a box of rags at the end of the jugs to catch a boolit. Cloth is hard for a bullet/boolit to penetrate, it'll catch most of them.

[44man]

So...1350 is the target velocity for really hammering them?
Seems as if 1300 to 1350 is best but I would not ignore 1200 either.
My 45-70 BFR is 1630 fps and a hard boolit just pokes a hole with almost nothing done inside, deer can make over 200 yards. I tried a soft HP and about ruined the next deer.
My take is in the right velocity range, you need no expansion but lower or faster will need some and that is why what amount us best has been a lot of work.
Then the 440 gr in the JRH gave me trouble so boolit weight might enter into it. just half the nose softer did the trick.
I suppose if you shot a hard boolit real fast, enough to distort the hard lead, it might also work. I just have little experience with rifles and cast. I use a real hard boolit in my Marlin 30-30 at 1900 fps and am afraid to shoot a deer with it. If I ever do, I will make the nose softer.

[jmort]

"Wet paper is just too heavy and difficult to dispose of. It's also a lot denser then flesh, will give false expansion."

I agree wet newspaper is a PIA, but disagree about false expansion. Did you review post 28? From all I have seen water gives "false expansion" compared with wet newspaper

[44man]

This has been harder then I thought, to hit things right and since I use heavy boolits, I don't know how it applies to those of you with lighter .44 or .45 boolits shot faster then I can reach. I would love to see actual pictures of damage caused by those. I have not shot any deer with lighter then 310, 320 and 330 in the .44 since I quit with the 240 XTP that failed to penetrate and 335 in the Colt. I believe you when you say a 250 gr works but I know I would never hunt with a soft HP in those two guns and surely not in the much larger calibers.
Some will say energy is lost out the other side of an animal and I will dispute that as long as energy is applied at the right spot first and I don't care if a boolit goes for a mile after.
I shoot a lot of deer and a bullet/boolit that stops is always worse. I don't believe in energy dump or muzzle energy but energy placed proper is best.
The 440 in the JRH was a mystery, deer hit double lungs were making 100 to 120 yards. I made a doe come to me one time and hit her in the front. The boolit went through the chest with almost no damage and started to work at the liver and from there on back until exit was a mess I don't want to clean again. That doe went straight up and did not land on her feet but flat on her belly. Now damage has moved towards entry with a tiny amount of softer nose.
With what the .475 did I figured the larger .500 would work the same with the same hardness because it is--well, bigger. Don't believe that old saw. The hard boolit in the JRH should be saved for the big bone critters that can run you down and kill you. Deer need energy faster.

[44man]

"Wet paper is just too heavy and difficult to dispose of. It's also a lot denser then flesh, will give false expansion."

I agree wet newspaper is a PIA, but disagree about false expansion. Did you review post 28? From all I have seen water gives "false expansion" compared with wet newspaper
I have done all kinds of testing and to tell the truth, nothing is the same as an animal. Lungs contain too much air so the best comparison would be only meat hits, like both hams.

[fredj338]

When I use water jugs to test, I line them up end-to-end on a board. that gives the boolits a little further to travel in each jug.

Wet paper is just too heavy and difficult to dispose of. It's also a lot denser then flesh, will give false expansion.

Another trick is to put a box of rags at the end of the jugs to catch a boolit. Cloth is hard for a bullet/boolit to penetrate, it'll catch most of them.

Just not true. Proper wetpack is very much like muscle tissue. Push your finger into a room temp roast & wetpack, about the same give. Look at the pic I posted, tell me which bullet was pulled from wetpack & which from a 600# animal shot in the front chest, bullet stuck behind the far side ribs after taking heart & one lung. No, wetpack is a far better test of bullet expansion than water. As noted, water will often expand a bullet that tissue will not. Water provides a hydraulic component in excess of flesh.
As far as diff to use, I find it far easier than 20 1gal jugs of water. Just do the wetpack in smaller bundles & line them up. You can also get 5-6 shots with handguns & 3 with rifle before swapping out the media. Water jugs, it's one shot & back to work stacking jugs. Regardless, all the trash goes in the recycle bin.

[snuffy]

Just not true. Proper wetpack is very much like muscle tissue. Push your finger into a room temp roast & wetpack, about the same give. Look at the pic I posted, tell me which bullet was pulled from wetpack & which from a 600# animal shot in the front chest, bullet stuck behind the far side ribs after taking heart & one lung. No, wetpack is a far better test of bullet expansion than water. As noted, water will often expand a bullet that tissue will not. Water provides a hydraulic component in excess of flesh.
As far as diff to use, I find it far easier than 20 1gal jugs of water. Just do the wetpack in smaller bundles & line them up. You can also get 5-6 shots with handguns & 3 with rifle before swapping out the media. Water jugs, it's one shot & back to work stacking jugs. Regardless, all the trash goes in the recycle bin.

Wet pack that I created, you could not possibly push a finger into it. Solid like a stick of green popple. That was water soaked newsprint.

Nothing can replicate animal tissue, not even animals. Angle of entry, placement, velocity, can never be the same from one shot to the next.

Your picture of 2 bullets proves nothing, other than they both expanded. The next one recovered from an animal could have expanded more or less.

I've posted pics of this expansion medium before, the now-defunct bullet test tube companies set-up for testing bullet expansion;

123726123727

It's a dense but pliable wax that is pretty close to muscle tissue. It gives a pretty good idea about if a boolit/bullet will expand or not. it can be re-used by melting and casting into a new tube.

[44man]

The key word about wet pack is "muscle tissue." I try to avoid those shots on deer.
How about a funny story?
Long ago we shot all kinds of stuff for fun and I found a huge amount of beautiful blue clay on a stream bank. We hauled buckets home. My friend added water but instead of just making clay, he ADDED WATER!
Well he could not wait so he set it up in his basement and whacked it with his .44 mag.
It took weeks to clean it from joists, walls, the floor and all else in the basement. :veryconfu:bigsmyl2:
I like wetpack too for fun and we have a paper mill close so I can get paper out of the dumpsters and return the soaked paper.
Some results; .475 with my cast did 37", Hornady 400 only 12" (sure not what would happen in an animal, is it?) 400 gr softnose did 14", BB 410, 19", BB 420, 21" and BB 440 25" first and 33" second after much pulped paper. My cast beat them all.
45-70 BFR with my 378 gr did 24", the Hornady 300 did 11" and broke up, not what happens in animals either.
.44 mag, Rem 240 did 11" and the RD 265 did 33", my 330 did 34".
The most damage with almost the whole front stack blown edge to edge was with a 577 Nitro Express SN. But if I remember it only made it 6" to 8". I did not write that one down.
Water jugs tell me something based on how many in the stack blow up. The .475 will blow 4 sky high and split no 5 but will not stop and continues in a straight line out the last jug.
We tried super heavy boolits like the 400 gr in the .44 and the 700 gr in the .500 S&W--sad to say the least, all turned and went out the sides or top. Both also turned on targets at 50 yards.
But wet pack never showed us what happens in animals. At least with water jugs I see where energy ends. At least 2 blown up shows where the most energy is placed in lungs, 4 is a quicker kill. If you shoot your .44 mag Unique load or special or any other slow load, you will see a jug bounce and end at the first jug.
Just a hole is not enough no matter how big the boolit is. Some calibers have a lot of penetration even if slow but no energy.
Am I right? Make your decision in the hunting field. I personally will not hunt with penetration only. Neither do I want to blow deer to a red mist and recover ground meat from the moon.
There is dead and lost, deader and way too dead.
My idea of a perfect test is an IS creep on the other end of a .50 BMG!

[Bigslug]

I personally will not hunt with penetration only. Neither do I want to blow deer to a red mist and recover ground meat from the moon.

This is somewhat the conclusion I've generally been coming to from my own observations and from reading what Veral Smith has to say on the matter. Penetration is not something cast bullets lack: I had a 358430 (200gr RN) easily penetrate 18" of FBI Jell-O with only 570 fps of starting speed; and a hard LBT 45-230LFN punch nine milk jugs at GI hardball velocity. Having seen this, I no longer have a lot of interest in throwing the heaviest possible slug for the caliber - at least not for handgun distances and not for the critters of North America. As long as you aren't going on the extreme light end, you'll have plenty of mass to truck on through.

Velocity, on the other hand, will give you a bigger bow wave off of your meplat as it goes through the unfortunate beast. Neither a 260 grain, nor a 320 grain WFN out of a .44 will have the slightest trouble penetrating through a deer inside of 100 yards, but as they both have the same .34 caliber meplat, the 260 that you can drive faster might have some advantages at the shorter ranges where it's still striking at a higher speed. Such is my interpretation of Veral's writings anyway. His collected observations indicate that you want a 3/4" to 1 1/4" hole all the way through - not a lot bigger or smaller - and that the bigger meplats in the .35" - .45" handguns we tend to hunt with need to be hitting at about 900 to 1100 fps to displace a hole that wide.

My personal field data isn't as extensive, but overall, I'm inclined to agree. The two Barnes, one Hornady, and one .45-70 RCBS 405FN rifle deer kills that I've witnessed all made that kind of hole completely through the chest cavity, and all were dead within a tiny handful of yards. The several in my circle taken with something more explosive did not drop so quickly.

Given that you seem to get benefits at a certain speed, and getting sufficient penetration from reasonable weights is not a concern, I'm lately inclined to go with what hurts less to shoot.

[44man]

There is a difference in the .44 at 100 yards or so, the deer still die but the reaction is different and they go farther but leave enough blood. Loss of velocity and energy is the reason. Any hit at 50 or less never go far and 30 yards is about it. I see or hear them fall.
That is why my limit is about 100 even if I had a rest and could hit them farther. I have not been shooting as far lately, too hard to hold steady now.
When you see the difference just distance makes with speed of a kill it really shows how much you need a little more energy.
Veral knows his stuff and over the years there have been only one or two things I don't totally agree with.
I see a point where a hard boolit with a large meplat shot too fast, will make a pressure wave from the meplat that will move tissue out of the way, slower will work better but too slow lacks energy.
More energy is placed in an animal when the boolit loses velocity inside the animal, it has been called "dwell" time.
I shoot a hard WLN and WFN from my 45-70 BFR and thought that over 1600 fps was going to be a real killer. That was proven false when I lost two deer. Both shot at about 20 yards, both got into thick and stopped so I could not shoot again, then just walked away and never stopped, no blood trail worth a darn either.
One I did hit twice near dark after that and tracked her up a steep hill and heard a shot in front at the top. Then I heard my name called. A neighbor seen her going by and dropped her with his rifle. I tried to give him the deer but he refused it. I estimate I tracked 150 yards uphill before he shot.
Sure will change a guys mind about what he is shooting.
Anyone tells me all you need is a hole should go buy some beer and sit at the bench and think about it. Anyone tells me a hard WFN at 1800 fps from a .454 is better needs more beer! [smilie=s:

[Bigslug]

I see a point where a hard boolit with a large meplat shot too fast, will make a pressure wave from the meplat that will move tissue out of the way, slower will work better but too slow lacks energy.
More energy is placed in an animal when the boolit loses velocity inside the animal, it has been called "dwell" time.

I have always been curious as to what science (or pseudoscience) was applied to the main British .455 and .38/200 Webley service cartridges. With round noses at velocities under 700fps, they weren't going to be doing much of anything for tissue displacement - though there's some chance the FMJ .38 MKII design was understabilized and may have tumbled a bit on impact. Still, it can't have made much of a splash. All I can figure is that someone looked at the magician's trick of quickly yanking a tablecloth (bullet) out from under a full dinner setting of plates (tissue) without moving them and thought that a slower bullet would have more of a dragging/tearing effect.

I can't fully latch onto the concept of energy transfer - at least not as it's often thought of in the "Hollywood" sense of knocking things over - due to the simple application of Newton #3; the animal struck is going to feel no more of a physical blow from the bullet than you are from the recoil caused by launching it. The science of fluid dynamics (moving boats through water or planes through air) is heavily applicable, but this comes apart a little for our purposes in that creatures of meat and bone are not entirely fluid and not entirely solid.

And this brings me back to the post-Miami research done by the FBI in the late 1980's and early '90's that concluded that if you aren't wiping out key portions of the central nervous system, the only way to stop them quickly is to make them BLEED quickly. We've had "bladed" bullets like the SXT, Golden Saber, HST, etc... for about 20 years now, and I never fully assimilated their performance characteristics until I read what Veral had to say about the Barnes X-bullets (he's a fan of 'em). Basically, the "blades" of these rounds increase their diameter without increasing their frontal resistance - at least not as much as a full, 360 degree mushroom would. The effect is like that of an archery broadhead - penetration is not drastically reduced because the blades don't drag much more than a bare arrow shaft would, but the bleeding effect is MUCH greater because of the larger diameter channel affected.

This has my gears grinding a little - there may be something to the concept of the penta-point style HP's if the nose pins were designed with this "broadhead" concept in mind. My only potential grievance with this (and with HP's in general) is the fussiness of tuning alloys and velocities for the round and distances in question. While the non-expanding flat nose is an unsophisticated sledge hammer in comparison, it has the advantage of being an easy to manipulate and highly predictable sledge hammer. . .

[44man]

It is very true an animal will feel no more then your hand and why "energy dump" is a myth, not enough there to start with. I much prefer "boolit work." You can punch a deer with more force then the recoil in your hand but what will that do?
It is why the deer shown almost cut in half with a .308 happens.
The question is; does a bullet/boolt Lack energy? No it does not or it would be a sharp pencil.
I can't connect the FEEL of a hit with energy transfer either.
So much has been written to try and explain it so let's look at just one thing. Take a musket with a .58 Minie' ball, recoil is zilch but the ball will destroy any part of a body it hits, removes thigh and arm bones in a heap. Damage is so massive, few lived from them.
There has to be a difference between what you feel from recoil to what a boolit does and it will not be on paper with someones opinions.
I feel nothing with my JRH but to see deer go down like the hammer of Thor hit them is hard to explain. I might learn math and come up with equations to explain it, do you have 1000 years to see?
I am stupid about theories and only go by what I see.
There is a reason the white hunters used what they did on huge game. They needed an instant stop with a charge, never a bleed out.
Energy kills faster in any case as long as it is where needed. Too soon or too late is what I work around.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Heavy and slow bullets usually penetrate like a freight train. Wouldn't expect 10, but I'm not surprised that it did.

[fredj338]

Wet pack that I created, you could not possibly push a finger into it. Solid like a stick of green popple. That was water soaked newsprint.

Nothing can replicate animal tissue, not even animals. Angle of entry, placement, velocity, can never be the same from one shot to the next.

Your picture of 2 bullets proves nothing, other than they both expanded. The next one recovered from an animal could have expanded more or less.

I've posted pics of this expansion medium before, the now-defunct bullet test tube companies set-up for testing bullet expansion;


It's a dense but pliable wax that is pretty close to muscle tissue. It gives a pretty good idea about if a boolit/bullet will expand or not. it can be re-used by melting and casting into a new tube.
Well you are correct, animals aren't homogenous, but better test medium than water or clay, as good as gel for exansion, virtually identical. So it does prove something in relative terms. Certainly as good as the wax/duct seal the tube stuff.
Btw, I your wet-pack has no give, it's either not wet enough or over compressed. It should give no unlike room temp meat. I'll believe my Lyon eyes, you can test the way you like.