If you are wondering if Adams & Bennett barrels will shoot.....

[MBTcustom]

they do.
Not benchrest quality by any means, and certainly I get more copper fowling than the more expensive barrels, but this is a group shot at 150 yards (measured range).
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0097.jpg
I do believe I pulled the one on top, and I am certainly not any kind of a target shooter, but I was impressed that the cheapest barrel on the market can deliver sub MOA. The other group was me dinking with a Leupold VX1 that has no clicks:?.
Rifle: Sako AV that I bought from LoveLife. (thanks Rich[smilie=s:)
I installed steel pillars, and bedded the action and 1.5" forward of the recoil lug with Devcon.
Barrel: Adams & Bennett bought from MidwayUSA and reprofiled in my shop, 24" long.
Caliber: 358 Winchester
Brass: Lake city match, full length sized.
Bullet: Hornady FTX 200 grain
Powder: IMR 3031 38.8 grains
Shot Sunday with no wind, from sandbags.

[Love Life]

Good shooting Tim!!

[swheeler]

Looks good Tim

[MBTcustom]

Awe shucks, I just let the rifle do all the work.
I ordered some Hornady brass and a Redding neck sizing die.
I just grabbed the load that quickload suggested, and I didn't have time to fine tune it. I am very curious what this will do with fireformed brass that is the right length, and a better powder charge.
Right now, all I have is a full length sizer, and the brass shrinks to 2.002 after I resize it to .358. I didn't realize until last night that Hornady made 358 Winchester brass, but I rectified the situation about .2 seconds after I saw it on Grafs.

[Love Life]

Maybe it is time to do a ladder test at 200 (300 preferrable) and then work the nodes. Thats a serious shooter you got there.

The man behind the trigger has to do his part for the barrel to do its part. Stretch it out another 100 yards, pack your bags and drive to Nevada, and we can go coyote hunting!

[David2011]

Tim,

I always enjoy your posts and exploits. Yes, they will shoot. On the advice of a long range riflesmith I cut a new crown on mine and it tightened the groups up a bunch- from 1-1/4" to under 1/2". I also started neck sizing only so the brass fit the chamber tightly so that may have helped.

David

[JesterGrin_1]

You might try some TAC :)

Bullet weight: 200 grains.

Start load: 42.0grains (2200 – 2300 Fps)

Maximum load: 46.5 grains (2475 – 2550 Fps).



But IMR-3031 is a good powder but I am confused by your starting load since it is listed as starting load of 44.1 Gr to Max of 49.0 Gr? But this is for the Hornady Spire point.

And by the way I am AMAZED that you went with a Jacketed Bullet lol. But I do have a Box or two of those Hornady 200Gr FTX bullets laying about. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Tim even though you have a Full Length Sizer does not mean you have to size full length. After I fire my brass the first time I smoke the neck or you can use any method you like. Then I adjust my Full Length sizer up off of the brass some and then size the brass a little at a time and set the die just short of changing the head space. Maybe about .020 left of the neck without being sized. But I use my brass in only that one rifle.

[Casting Timmy]

I think the cheap barrels will shoot more than people think, one of the local gunsmiths that used to work in this town would install the cheap barrels on everyone's rifles instead of what they wanted/ paid for on the rifle. Some did coem back and complain about the barrel and he would just install another cheap one and they would be happy.

I know this as one of his friends told me about it, he also did some other weird things working on guns.

I'm thinking about trying out another Green Mountain barrel, I bought one for my 10/22 on clearance and it works great.

Good shooting and good work on putting it together.

[MBTcustom]

As far as the powder charge goes, I am using re-sized LC match brass. The most IMR3031 that I can get into that case along with a bullet is 41.2 grains. Also, the smaller case capacity produces more pressure. As it is, I was getting about 2325 over the chronograph. A little slow, but still delivering over a ton of "shut yo mouth" to whatever I shoot.


Tim even though you have a Full Length Sizer does not mean you have to size full length. After I fire my brass the first time I smoke the neck or you can use any method you like. Then I adjust my Full Length sizer up off of the brass some and then size the brass a little at a time and set the die just short of changing the head space. Maybe about .020 left of the neck without being sized. But I use my brass in only that one rifle.

I am aware of that, and I actually tried it. That trick works a lot better with cast than it does with jacketed. The problem is that the neck portion of the sizing die is tapered also, and as you back off the die from the shellholder, you are not only short sizing the neck, but its not squeezing the down the diameter near as much either. These brass necks are so thin, that if I don't absolutely bottom that die against the shellholder, then I can almost get the bullet into the case by hand.
What really stinks is that PTG's idea of reamer dimensions and RCBSs idea of brass dimensions are pretty far apart! If I backed the die up until it quit sizing the body of the brass, then the neck was just barely inside the die. (ie the die sizes the brass down about .005 near as I can tell)
Given that the cartridges were that sloppy in the chamber, I was really pleased with the above grouping.

Don't bust on me too hard over my choice of projectile for testing a new rifle. Most of my clients demand sub MOA groups, I am still getting started and every rifle is a testimony that I need to have. Also, now that I have a baseline, I can work on the cast loads knowing that the rifle has the capability.
I am going hunting this weekend, and I am using your pet load of 35 grains and the RCBS35-200-FN. I only had time to test it at 50 yards off hand, but I hit the pie-plate every time, so here I go.
I just wanted to give the fellers an honest opinion about A&B barrels because once again, they have surprised me.

[Nobade]

It's funny, I get very few customers who want A&B barrels themselves but nearly every rifle I have built for myself has one on it. They really do work well and you can't beat the price. In fact, I am going to chamber up my latest, a 222 rem 1:14 barrel at lunch today. I am glad you are getting good results with that 358.

Oh, remember Kiff makes customs for no extra charge. I very seldom buy an off the shelf reamer, it does pay to spec out your own. But since there is such a difference in your reamer and dies I would be measuring the reamer and making a cerrosafe cast of the die and figure out which one is not right.

[MBTcustom]

Well, I measured the reamer and the shoulder diameter is .4578
Then I measured the sized brass (that's all that really matters anyway) and I get .451
So there is actually almost .007 difference between the two. I slipped the reamer back into the chamber just to make sure that I didn't ream it oversize somehow, and it fit like a glove with no wiggle so the chamber was cut correctly.
I looked up the SAAMI specs for the chamber and they say the shoulder diameter should be .455 so the reamer is in fact a little oversize, but the cartridge is certainly being sized too small also as the shoulder diameter for it should be .454.
Looks like I got a little on the outside of the tolerance on both the reamer and the FL sizing die.
Not a lot I can do about the die set, but the reamer dimention is duly noted. I will measure the chamber reamers from now on.

[Nobade]

Yep, that's about the right size for an Ackley cartridge. I would get him to send you a print and if it doesn't match have him fix the reamer.

P.S. Verifying the dimensions on your go/no go gauges when you get them is a good idea too. They're not always right.

[Reverend Recoil]

The bigest mystery is who are Adams & Bennett? Do such persons actually exist? If not, then who are making these barrels. My theory is these people do not exist and the barrels are contrated out by Midway to the lowest bidder. Nobody in the barrel making business is talking. The name "Adams & Bennett" apears to have been made up by somebody in the Midway marketing department.

Most people seem to be happy with the product at Midway's price point so they must be doing something right.

[MBTcustom]

I have it on good authority that the barrels are being made by one manufacturer for MidwayUSA. They may be the lowest bidder, but the quality seems to have the same signature with all the barrels I have used. They aint pretty, but they got it where it counts. Especially if you profile the exterior yourself. That dimension seems to have some variance.
The bores always have this "parkerized" look, and there is a lot of copper wash at first, but it is so cool to watch the groups shrink as the barrel breaks in! (BTW the above group is after only 20-30 jacketed bullets, so I expect this one is not near broke in yet.)
Anyway, A&B barrels are fun. They are cheap enough that you can try something like a wildcat, and not worry about ruining a $350 pipe. They are ideal hunting barrels, but I just smile and shake my head when I start shooting them.
Are they target grade? Not quite, but they are a darn sight better than 99% of the factory barrels that I have seen.

[Reverend Recoil]

The technology of producing good button rifle barrels has been around a long time. You have to look hard to find a bad one. All the reasons cited for buying an Adams & Bennett barrel by goodsteel are all valid. I shoot master scores with a button rifled barrel on my match rifle. When I feel I am a contender for getting my High Master clasification I will layout the $650 for a Kraiger cut-rifled barrel. Until then I will keep shooting as many tens and X's as I can with my Wilson button rifle barrel.

[JesterGrin_1]

I have read so many arguments over barrel companies that lap or do not lap there bore. For myself I would rather wear my bore in myself for what I do than have it pre worn in lol. :).

And even though these are just 5 round groups at 50 yards my A&B ( E.R.Shaw ) barrel will shoot better than I will. .358 Winchester and BRP 360-225 Gr GC. But even at 100 yards it is still under 1/2 inch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/Savage358Win.jpg

[Charley]

A target from just beginning break in and load workup on a VZ24 I rebarreled with an A&B barrel. Just over .75 inches at 100 yards. Granted it was a three shot group, but more than good enough for starting break in. At one time, I understand Shaw was producing them for Midway, don't know who's doing it now.

[hylander]

And even though these are just 5 round groups at 50 yards my A&B ( E.R.Shaw ) barrel will shoot better than I will.

So is A&B and E.R. Shaw the same company ?

[JesterGrin_1]

So is A&B and E.R. Shaw the same company ?

A&B is a Midway name. Many were made by E.R.Shaw. As far as I know E.R.Shaw stopped producing barrels mostly for Midway to market as A&B barrels due to there cost VS sales to Midway. That is why now at Midway it will say E.R.Shaw and Not A&B.

So the short answer is Yes A&B is E.R.Shaw

[MBTcustom]

Thanks Jester, I didn't want to quote you on public forum.

[Wolfer]

I have 3 Adams and Bennett barrels and 1 Shaw barrel. The A and B were all shooters from the start. The shaw took several rds before it started taking shape.
Considering the price I'm quite pleased with all of them!

[JesterGrin_1]

Thanks Jester, I didn't want to quote you on public forum.

Well Tim I Kinda Got the THUD of a Hint lol.

And by the way in my own dumb opinion lol. They do skimp on a few things with there barrels due to the price point being the final sand of the exterior of the barrel and the bluing job.

That is part of the reason that when I had Dan build my .358 Winchester Savage I asked him to Duracoat it for me. As it is a good protective and worry free finish if done correctly.

I am also in the process of committing sacrilege lol. I am sending my 35 Whelen back to him and at this point I am heavily thinking of having the barrel cut from 24" down to 22" and install the Muzzle Brake by Brownells as the barrel is long enough as it is. And the Muzzle Brake will add about 2 1/2" to the length and ask him to ream the chamber from 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI. The Sacrilege part is that it will be used for only Jacketed rounds. And coat it with a Satin Black Duracoat finish.

But do not loose Heart lol. My 358 Winchester and my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 will be my go to Cast Bullet Rifles. :)

[Charley]

They certainly do skimp on the blueing...all of the A&B barrels I've bought have been in the white.

[hylander]

A&B is a Midway name. Many were made by E.R.Shaw. As far as I know E.R.Shaw stopped producing barrels mostly for Midway to market as A&B barrels due to there cost VS sales to Midway. That is why now at Midway it will say E.R.Shaw and Not A&B.

So the short answer is Yes A&B is E.R.Shaw

Was just checking Midway and they are listed as A&B

[MBTcustom]

Was just checking Midway and they are listed as A&B

Kinda like those Weatherby vanguards that look just like cheap Japanese Howa 1500s?

Do a Google search for Adams & Bennett. You will find nothing but MidwayUSA links and a few other distributors.

Here is a quote from this link that Google came up with:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3954874/1

Here is the reply from Larry Potterfield to my question.

Under the terms of our contract, I am not allowed to reveal which major American barrel maker makes these for us. The Adams and Bennett brand was created a number of years ago to help us sell more Fajen stocks. With a reasonable price upgrade, we were looking to get more people involved in my passion, hobby gunsmithing. The line has been a great seller for us ever since. I am confident you will be happy with the performance of the barrels, and urge you to read some of the customer reviews on the website. We only edit them for foul language and the like, so if a review is bad it still gets posted. I think you will like what you see.



Thanks For Your Business,



Larry Potterfield

CEO

MidwayUSA
NRA Benefactor Member



From: Bob Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:45 PM
To: Presidential Customer Comments
Subject: Adams & Bennett Rifle Barrels



I have question . Who makes the Adams & Bennett barrel for your company?



Thanks,

Bob

[yondering]

I've had great results with the A&B barrels I've used, they've all been great shooters. On a couple, I used the Tubb's bore polishing bullets; accuracy didn't change a lot, but the bore fouling just about disappeared. (Those really do just polish, they aren't really "lapping" the bore.)

goodsteel, sounds like there's something wrong with your sizing die, the neck shouldn't be tapered. Never mind what the shoulder diameter does, just back the die out a little bit from where it touches the shoulder, so the neck has a small ring that locates the round in the chamber. Even if the neck in the die is tapered, if it's sizing it down far enough, pulling the brass back over the expander button should make the case neck straight. If the die doesn't size it down far enough, it's a bad die.

[yondering]

I am also in the process of committing sacrilege lol. I am sending my 35 Whelen back to him and at this point I am heavily thinking of having the barrel cut from 24" down to 22" and install the Muzzle Brake by Brownells as the barrel is long enough as it is. And the Muzzle Brake will add about 2 1/2" to the length and ask him to ream the chamber from 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI.

Sounds just like my Rem 700! The 35 Whelen AI in a 22" tube with a brake is a sweet setup. Load that up with the 225gr Nosler Partition, and it's pretty hard to beat. Mild recoil and tons of power!

If you're into paper patching for smokeless loads, this is a pretty powerful setup too, although you'll probably have to take the brake off. In mine, I've been able to push a 250gr paper patched Mountain Molds bullet over 2800 fps, with better accuracy than any of my jacketed loads. (Lower bore friction allows higher velocity than jacketed loads.) That's getting off topic a little though...

[j20owner]

I just wish they'd make some unchambered blanks with Series 2 mauser threads in .30 caliber.

[MBTcustom]

goodsteel, sounds like there's something wrong with your sizing die, the neck shouldn't be tapered.
Well, it's not going to be an issue anymore cause I bought the last Redding neck sizing die that Grafs had. We in business now!

I've been able to push a 250gr paper patched Mountain Molds bullet over 2800 fps, with better accuracy than any of my jacketed loads. (Lower bore friction allows higher velocity than jacketed loads.) That's getting off topic a little though...
On the contrary, I would be very interested in knowing exactly what boolit you used to get these good results with PP loads.I am going to be heading that way myself this summer I think. I've got a pile of papers cut and ready to go. I'm just pondering which boolit to go with.


I just wish they'd make some unchambered blanks with Series 2 mauser threads in .30 caliber.
I don't understand. Why not just buy the blank and thread it to whatever series you like?

[yondering]

On the contrary, I would be very interested in knowing exactly what boolit you used to get these good results with PP loads.I am going to be heading that way myself this summer I think. I've got a pile of papers cut and ready to go. I'm just pondering which boolit to go with.


Well, in that case: That Mountain Molds bullet is one I got a pile of from member "arcticbreeze". I've been meaning to measure it and order a mold like this of my own; I can do so if you want. The meplat is a bit large for long distance performance (poor b.c.) but it shoots so well, I'm not sure I'd change anything. In these pictures, the Mountain Mold bullet is bare, next to the lubed/checked Saeco 352. The 352 is also a good bullet, but doesn't shoot nearly as well as that MM 250 in my rifle.

I used Reloader 15 to push this bullet to 2800 fps, don't know if that powder would be ideal in your 358 but it's about perfect in the Whelen AI. For paper patching, I made up a template which I print out on regular printer paper, and cut along the lines with a paper cutter. I wrap wet, on the unsized bullet, then push them through a Lee sizer die polished to .360". I'd be happy to share the template, if I can find it. It's a word document.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_1008.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_1007.jpg

[MBTcustom]

I'd be happy to share the template, if I can find it. It's a word document.
Go ahead and post it in the smokeless paper patching section. I dont personally need it because I use a process of my own, and I already have a pretty good stack of papers cut exactly right. Not only that, but I use green bar paper, and that would have to be cut just to get it in the printer.
However, there are many shooters that would benefit from your template if you would be so kind as to post it up for the education of the forum.

I am glad to see your boolit has a FN on it. I slapped eyes on it and got a devious grin because I know that Tom will have no trouble duplicating that boolit.

[HotGuns]

Goodsteel, I've put many Adams and Bennett barrels on guns over the years and I am continually amazed at how well they shoot. While its true they arent benchrest quality, they are quality enough that most people will be more than pleased with them. Many people are into "project" guns and they want to do it on the cheap. The A&D barrels work well for them. They seem to work really well on the Mauser type rifles that people sporterize. While I am not a fan of butchering up a piece of history,the ones that were sporterized a long time ago can and do benefit from barrel swapouts.

A few weeks ago I rebarreld a Mauser to a .243. I chambered it and then had AJ PRice reblue if for my customer. That thing came out as pretty as any Mauser you've ever seen. The best part was when he called me up to tell me how well it shot, he was more than pleased with it.

While A&D barrels arent the best on the market, they aint exactly the worst either. There is a lot of bang there for the buck.

[largom]

I have bought a lot of A&B barrels and top brand name barrels. The A&B barrels have shot just as good as the top name ones.

Larry