Bp lube "in a pinch"

[oldred]

Maybe this should be in the lube section but it's specific to Bp shooting and after doing a lot of searching for lube info I really could not find what I was looking for.

The situation was I had a buddy come for a visit over the weekend and he had never shot Black Powder (only that stinkin phony stuff!) but while I had lots of powder and lead I was out of lube suitable for BP and everything I had on hand contained Alox which I have been warned never to use with BP. It was Sunday and everyplace that sells (usable) shooting supplies was closed so I looked here to see what I could maybe concoct from what I could find here at home that might work in a pinch such as this, we ended up mixing some Beeswax I had with Crisco and while it worked ok it was messy and did not do a very good job in the last few inches of the 32" barrel. My question is, in a situation like this and with some Beeswax on hand what would a fellow look for around the house to make a quick&simple lube?


BTW, the guy was an instant convert! He is an avid deer hunter and has been hunting during the primitive weapons season with one of those infernal inline contraptions using phony powder but after a few rounds with my 45/90 and T/C Hawkin muzzleloader using the real stuff he came away with a completely new outlook!

[Bullshop]

vegtable oil
lard (without salt)
shortning (without salt)

[Don McDowell]

Must a been a logistical screw up of epic porportions to allow oneself to run short of NASA,:bigsmyl2: but if that should happen again, a simple 50-50 mix of beeswax and vaseline will suffice.

[Bullshop]

Rest easy all logistical issues have been resolved and the NASA pipe line is flowing again.
Was just helping to apply a bandaid until the cure could be administerd.

[Lead pot]

50-50 mix of beeswax and vaseline like Don mentioned is about as good as any.
Or 1 part B wax with 2 parts Peanut oil for a quick batch of lube that works good.
When you have your lube hot just have a bread pan handy with bullets standing in formation pour in your lube to cover the GG and let it cool and your good to go.

[Boz330]

What Don said. That was the lube recommended by C-Sharps when I got my first Hi-wall from them. Actually it was by someone who wrote an article for their news letter. I used it for quite sometime. It doesn't work like NASA but in a pinch it works fine.

Bob

[herbert buckland]

Bees wax and olive oile has worked better than any other lube I have tryed so far,would love to try the NASA though if I can ever get my hands on any in Australia

[oldred]

Thanks, I had been using some lube that was meant for T/C Maxi-balls but I had used the last of it so we were looking around on short notice for something quick and simple.

[Bullshop]

Bees wax and olive oile has worked better than any other lube I have tryed so far,would love to try the NASA though if I can ever get my hands on any in Australia

We do ship to Australia.

[littlejack]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Emmerts recipe. I wanted to make my own bp lube
when I bought my first bp rifle, and the Emmerts is easy, and fast.
50% beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% vegitable oil. Works absolutely great in my Uberti 45-70.
Jack

[oldred]

The concoction we came up with during that little fiasco was Beeswax and Crisco at about 75% to 25% which was kind of stiff but seemed to work OK. I now intend to make up a batch of the 50/40/10 but this brings me to another question, how well will this lube last in a loaded round stored under reasonable temperature conditions?

[littlejack]

I don't know.
I loaded may cases after my last shooting session last fall, (2011).
That aren't drawing flies yet. Does that help?
FYI, you can make the revised Emmerts recipe, which is 50/40/5/5.The last 5% being anhydrous
lanolin. It is a little stickier, and a little stiffer.
Jack

[Grapeshot]

The concoction we came up with during that little fiasco was Beeswax and Crisco at about 75% to 25% which was kind of stiff but seemed to work OK. I now intend to make up a batch of the 50/40/10 but this brings me to another question, how well will this lube last in a loaded round stored under reasonable temperature conditions?

The batch I mixed up has lasted a couple of years with no signs of deterioration and I store it in my Work Shed where there is no temperature controlls. I made up a bunch of this stuff and still have enough to last at least two more years of CAS matches and my plinking with my .45-60WCF M1876 and my .45-70 Govt Marlin 1895 Cowboy and both my Trapdoor 1873 and Remington Rolling Block.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Been using Beeswax and olive oil for many years. I am pretty settled on 55% wax and 45% olive oil. But for colder temps I add a little more oil. But this would be my BP mix. Cartrige or muzzleloader.
I wonder how a dab of lanolin would work ? May give that a whirl one day. Can't hurt.
Bought some NASA about 18 months ago and tried it in my 50-95 earlier this summer. Worked nicely down that 28" barrel with 3F, 2F and F and never had any clean up conditions.
Mike in ILL

[OD#3]

The concoction we came up with during that little fiasco was Beeswax and Crisco at about 75% to 25% which was kind of stiff but seemed to work OK. I now intend to make up a batch of the 50/40/10 but this brings me to another question, how well will this lube last in a loaded round stored under reasonable temperature conditions?

That's one of the reasons why I use Olive oil with my beeswax; it doesn't go rancid.

[cajun shooter]

Go to any natural food or cosmetics dealer and purchase pure lanolin. It does wonders for your barrel.
In the hot, humid Louisiana Terra Firma I also add some Carnauba flakes from Randy Rat. It's like giving your barrel a shine job.
I have and use NASA almost 100% of the time, unless I get caught short. I do add a little of the Carnauba flakes to stiffen it up a bit for our climate.
I'm hooked on the smell, although my wife thinks that NASA and Ballistol both have a negative odor.

['74 sharps]

I've found that about any combo of beeswax and a non petroleum oil works well. Beeswax is the carrier, not the lube. I wet wipe between shots; however, I do shoot 5+ shots with no accuracy issues on occasion.

[Lead pot]

The problem using Crisco in a lube is corrosion. It dont take long to find green when you pull a bullet. It's the last thing I would add to my lube.
Lube like salt free tallow (not lard) has been used for a couple hundred years and it works good.
One Part B-Wax Two parts Sperm oil is what the Sharps rifle company used and I have used when I could still get the Sperm oil in the OD green Military surplus cans was an excellent lube and Jojoba oil is a good replacement for it now.
The 50/50 B-Wax Vaseline mix has been in use for a hundred years + and it is a good lube.
Keep your lube simple!!!

A good way to test to see if your lube is working when your barrel gets hot is to check the lube star at the muzzle. The best is if it is a soft lead smear when you rub your thumb over it. When the barrel gets so hot that you cant lay your hand on it, mine will get this way during hot days at a match shooting a long string, the lube star might get crusty but if you can slowly exhale on it it will turn to grease it is working. One blow using a blow tube then push a dry patch down the bore and if it turns to grease as it passes through it is a good lube.
My lube will do this.

[oldred]

Thanks everyone, I have not said much since starting this thread but I have read every word and learned a bunch about lube!

[nwellons]

I've been using the 50/40/10 recipe for about 4 years now in .42 Berdan, .43 Egyptian, .44 Russian and 7.62 Nagant. When the boolit has deep lube grooves, I pan lube. My .42 boolit is weak in lube grooves so I make cookies out of the 50/40/10 for it. I also use cardboard or wax paper wads between the powder and cookie or boolit.

After reading these threads, I may look into the NASA as it would be easier than making up the recipe.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Someone on this thread said you should not use any lube that has alox in with black powder. Why?

[Buckshot]

............Because ALOX is a petroleum derivative. So cooked motor oil and BP residue is simply something you don't need to deal with.

.............Buckshot

[cpileri]

Isnt vaseline a petroleum product? petroleum jelly? carbolated petroleum jelly? white petrolatum?

Or, does it just so happen to have a long track record of sucess and its petroleum status doesnt matter?

C-

[Lead pot]

Sage brush lube has Alox in it and it is a decent black powder lube. yes Petroleum Jelly is a refined Petroleum and it has been in use for more then a hundred years for a black powder lube.

One of my early hobbies was Steam engines, I grew up around them and I was fascinated with them and I did a lot of reading on how to make them run properly.
Some of this I also apply to shooting black powder because I think it also travels down the same track, sort of, with the moisture we leave behind in the bore to keep the fouling soft and how that moisture reacts to the lead and barrel steel.

Steam locomotive should never use anything other than compounded steam cylinder oil, containing 4% tallow, for the lubrication of the internal parts of a locomotive’s steam engine. Other mineral based oils such as internal combustion engine oil and machine oil should not be used because they will not be able to maintain their lubricating properties with the hot water and steam. The result will be metal-to-metal contact between the internal parts of the steam engine assembly, which will result in the scoring and galling of mating wear surfaces. Likewise vegetable oils, such as Castor oil, should not be used either for the same reasons.
The same goes on in the barrel with the moisture from the use of the blow tube or wiping patch and the high pressure and heat. When the wrong oil is in the mix it will cause this galling.

Just something to think about. Oil does make a difference in the lube

[Don McDowell]

Someone on this thread said you should not use any lube that has alox in with black powder. Why?

If they did say that it's most likely because they didn't really know any better. Sagebrush ALOX lube is a pretty decent lube, developed by a bpcr shooter, and manufactured and sold by/for bpcr shooters.
In the back of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book he lists many many blackpowder lubes, and a bunch of them don't really line up with "common wisdom" oft passed about today.

[rhbrink]

I read everything I can about lubes and I have run across a couple of receipes for blackpowder lubes that use Dextron ATF as a ingrediant. Which ready surprises me as I would not think that AFT would be compatible with blackpowder. One that I just made up comes form Ed harris 3 parts beeswax, one part each of AFT and crisco. I have already tried it as a light load in a revolver with smokeless just to see if it would work with that and it seems OK. The real test is about to happen.

Richard

[Tigrr]

So many choices so little time!!

[rhbrink]

Since this is the black powder cartridge forum and we are discussing lube I thought that I would throw this in. I made up some of excess650s lube using ATF and lubed up some of the NOE432-200 loaded them in a 44 Mag case with 30 grains of 3F. I loaded 12 of them and figured that would give me a indication of whether or not it would be a suitable lube, it worked just fine. I fired all twelve shots in a Ruger SBH and had no problems of any kind the cylinder was turning just fine, very little fouling in the barrel and it appeared very wet with a good wet lube star at the muzzle and the accuracy was great. Why? Just because I could. If I was looking for a lube to make for BPCR shooting this the direction I would go. Just a couple of days ago I was talking to a friend of mine that I use to shoot with and ask him if he had used Mathews lube? I thought that he had but wasn't sure and he had and his results were the same as mine. He did remind me that it was during the very hot part of the summer here in the midwest, humidity I don't know it could have either been very humid or somewhat dry.
And that's my story and I'm stick'in too it!

RB

[jbc]

Had to bring this back because one question never got answered. Everyone says no alox because you can't use petroleum products with black powder but why then is vaseline (petroleum jelly) ok??

[semtav]

I'd have thrown a big fat greasy roast in the crock pot the day before, and when done put the whole mess in the fridge. Next morning you will have a good layer of tallow to mix with some paraffin, olive oil and whatever else you want to add, Plus the fixins for a good lunch.

[Holeinhide]

I have been wondering the same about the various petroleum products that can and cannot be used with black powder. I am not a chemist but I have been reading a bunch so I will give it a go. It seems that all petroleum products have hydrocarbons; tease hydrocarbons combine with the fouling to form either a hydrophobic or hydroscopic compound. The hydrophobic ones are hard and stick very well to steel; they require a solvent to be removed. The hydroscopic ones will pick up moisture from the air or your breath and remain soft so they can be easily wiped away. From what I can tell most light petroleum like K1 or petroleum jelly are hydroscopic and most dark petroleum’s are hydrophobic like Alox or motor oil. This is open for discussion as stated I am not a chemist and could be very wrong and would like to know if I am.

[cajun shooter]

The more refined a petroleum product the better it is as a BP lube. If you use the Vaseline jelly then that has a lot of stages it is run through before reaching the final product. I know that Harlan at Sagebrush Outfitters sells a lube that contains Alox. I've never quite understood this but maybe he has a certain Alox that is much different product. They have many different grades of Alox.
Alox was first brought forth as a automobile undercoating. I would imagine that this grade would stop up your barrel real good. I have and always will stay away from it myself.
I have used Jojoba Oil for about 4 years now and it along with the BW, Sheep Tallow and other ingredients make a super BP lube. I have other BP shooters that beg me for it. To make my life much easier I usually stick to using NASA as I have found nothing that is better. Later David

[bigted]

having just had a "lube" lesson for the past few years ill chime in here with my TAKE on lube requirements;

I have formed an opinion concerning lubes...my old lube that ill never use again is such...1/3rd bee wax/1/3rd vegi shortinin [Crisco]/1/3rd peanut oil.

after having my @$$ handed to me accuracy and fouling wise for around 3 or 4 years I finally asked what other shooters thought about my problem concerning accuracy with the BP. most came back with the answer of "fouling and fouling and finally fouling". so being stuck with finding out why I fouled out so often...[think 100 % of the time]...I set out to find the cure for my woes...without going into the why of being so hard headed ill just skip to the final thought so far that seem to work out well.

I purchased a few sticks of SPG lube from baco to try in my lube sizer. boiled my sizer and cleaned my home brew outta it and installed the SPG to have a go with it. first thing I discovered was that it didn't wipe off my fingers like my home brew. so being fairly inquisitive I yanked my old lube out to compare with each other...rubbed both on my finger and thumb and rubbed thoroughly I then proceeded to try to clean it off with a dry towel. the home brew cleaned rite off with no left over residue when the finger and thumb were rubbed together after cleaning...now after going into the bathroom and washing with strong soap for a clean start I went in and re-tried the experiment with the SPG lube. couldn't get it wiped completely off and after the towel wiping I still had residue on my finger/thumb that continued to provide slippery conditions on my skin. then after washing again I also tried the NASA lube with the same results as the SPG.

now im sure that there is more to the stories then what happens when fingers are rubbed together but im pretty sure that this is an important aspect of my lube needs. what the water retention value is I have no clue but I do know that lube NEEDS to be slippery under pressure and mine wasn't.

such a simple value and I don't believe I waited so long to give a try with such an easy experiment.

coincidently the 50/50 Vaseline/bee wax mix will stick with the program almost as well on my fingers as the other lubes I tried from manufacturers.

THATS ALL FOLKS !!![smilie=s:

[Texantothecore]

Emmerts 45/45/10 Beeswax, Crisco and olive oil. Or you can just use olive oil, whatever is on sale.

[rhbrink]

Just a update on my experiments with home made black powder lube. I found that while the Harris lube did work with blackpowder the accuracy just wasn't there for me. The lube that excess650 makes worked very well for me in a 38-55 shooting at 200 yds. I used a blow tube between shots and shot 30+ rounds without cleaning until I was done shooting. Cleanup was easy no leading a couple of patches and it was clean and the accuracy was just as good as any lube that I used in the past including the expensive stuff.

RB

[451 Pete]

A very good recipe that I have used for many years for a homemade lube for black powder was given to me by a master class shooter in the NRA BPCS game a long time back. 8 oz. Bees wax , 6 oz Pure Neatsfoot oil and a bar of Neutrogina hand soap. This will run nicely thru a lube sizer , works very well and as a plus can be softened by adding a bit more oil to work as a patch lube for a muzzle loader. The pure Neatsfoot oil ( not the Compound ) can be found at a good leather working shop, tack shops or on line, the Neutrogina can be purchased at Wally World in the ladys section in cosmetics. At the end of a days shooting the fouling is easily removed from the bore.

Pete

[Lead pot]

Neutrogena and cold cream is a plumbers job security :drinks:

Vaseline (petroleum jelly) is a mixture of mineral oils, paraffin and micro crystalline waxes and I use it in my lube using a mineral wax as a Carrier. This lube is a petroleum concoction and I dont get tar in my bore.
My late friend used motor honey and something else mixed for a patch lube he used for the flint lock and he did not have a tar problem.
The only lube I ever concocted that made a tar like clean up was a mix I used with liquid alox that comes with the Lee dies and it was a bear to get cleaned out of the brass and bore.

[oldred]

I started this discussion and it has certainly been of great interest to me, I have learned a bunch and taken a lot of notes!

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post.

[Mizzouboy]

Dumb question from a newbie: What's the problem with BP and Alox?

[rhbrink]

Accuracy is my first problem with it but never did get past a couple of shots to tell how bad the fouling might be.

RB

Edit, what the heck is a Mizzouboy doing in 'Bama country?

[59sharps]

50/50 or 60/40 beeswax/olive oil. patrolium products of any type are a no no in black powder lube.

[CanoeRoller]

I posted this list on another forum. It shows (1) I need to get a life, and (2) there is a lot that works


US Army 1855 - 1 part beeswax, 3 parts tallow

US Army 1861 - 8 parts beeswax, 1 part tallow

US Army 1873 - 8 parts bayberry wax, 1 part graphite

US Army 1880 - Japan wax

Sharps Rifle Co. 1878 - 1 part beeswax, 2 parts sperm oil.

Maynard Rifle 1890 - 1 part beeswax, 3 parts tallow

Marlin Firearms Co. 1891 - 1 part beeswax, 4 parts tallow

S&W 1891 - tallow

H.M. Pope 1900 - 3 parts mutton tallow, 2 parts bay wax, 1 part beeswax, 1 part steam cylinder oil, .2 of 1 part Acheson graphite.
(5) parts Bee's Wax
(4) parts Lard/Crisco
(1) part Canola/Olive oil


Buck Emmert's Lube Formula (for black powder)

1750 grains Beeswax
1368 grains Crisco Shortening (White)
328 grains Crisco or Wesson Vegetable Oil

BPCR LUBE
1 pound Bees Wax
1 pound Citronella Candle
2 Tablespoons shortening

50% beeswax,
40% white Crisco
10% canola cooking oil.
6 cups unmelted soy wax.
½ cup Jojoba oil.
½ cup mutton tallow, or you can use beef tallow
1/3 cup unsalted lard.
1/3 cup liquid Bayberry wax.
You can thicken this out by adding soy or using less to thin it or add more lard to make it softer. If it gets too hot add Palm Vegetable wax or use block Bayberry wax instead of liquid Bayberry wax.
Palm wax melts at about 160*

50% beeswax,
40% Crisco,
5% Canola Oil,
5% Lanolin

6 oz of beef tallow
4 oz bayberry wax
2 oz beeswax
2 oz synthetic sperm oil
1 heaping teaspoon of Moly

6 oz of beeswax
3 oz of bayberry wax
6 oz of bacon grease
1 tablespoon of Dawn soap
2 tablespoon of neatsfoot oil

40% beeswax
30% conola oil
30% lanolin

70% Soywax
20% Avocado oil
10% lanolin

One part clean beeswax
Three parts rendered and refined deer tallow
One canola oil
Powdered graphite

One part clean beeswax
Three parts rendered then refined buffalo tallow
One part Jojoba oil


Modern Sharps Formula
1 part Beeswax
1 part Jojoba oil


1 pound beeswax
1 pound white Crisco
1 pound Mutton Tallow
5 oz. Bag Balm

1 part canuba wax
1/2 part bee wax
3 parts lard
one tablespoon oil of wintergreen

50% beeswax
25% beef tallow
15% coconut oil
5 % olive oil or jojoba oil
5% lanolin.

[357maximum]

50/50 or 60/40 beeswax/olive oil. patrolium products of any type are a no no in black powder lube.

Regurgitated BS that has no bearing once you step up and actually try something like thinking and doing for yourself. My favorite conical lube is 50% DeerTallow and 50% soft microwax....it is perfect, cheap and it works. Vaseline and other light petro's work just fine in BP lubes...... Heavy axle greases and alox based lubes are the only one I have found that give one a cases of the hard crumblies when it comes to BP fouling. Stop regurgitating wives tales and half truths please and thank you.

[herbert buckland]

My experince has been that Alox and light patrollum oils turn the fouling to a sticky tar and is not good for acuracy,this has been from extencive trials of diffrent lubes well before the internet.I belive just about any mix of Bees Wax and vegitable oil or lard around 50-50 will work OK,I use Bees wax and Olive oil and change the mixture as the temprature changes(add more oil as it gets colder ,add wax as it heats up)I have seen Vaseline work OK but not as good as as vegitable oils and can see no reason to use it as vegitable oils are booth cheeper and work much more efectivley