429421 Hp?

[HCL]

Came across a mould today, Lyman single cavity 429421 HP, looked it up in the lyman book and does not list a HP only FP at 245grs. What kinda weight can I expect with this being a HP. Water dropped WW. Hopefully some time this week I can fire up the pot and check it out.
Also found a 429303, kinda looks like a pyamid shape, wont work in my lever guns but might be interesting in pistol. What was the reason for the pointy shape? My guess was Silhouette?
Thanks

[MtGun44]

The 429421 HP is a real rarie, brings big bucks on eBay. Should
be a real shooter. Elmer says it goes 235 gr in his book "Sixguns".

I think I heard that the pointy bullets were for penetrating car
bodies, presumably by police.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

Wellllllllllllll now, If it doesn't work out, you won't forget yer friends here will ya :D

[44man]

I had one in 1956 and sold it for some reason, since I always needed to sell something to buy something else I guess. I have been sorry since, it was a great shooting boolit. I hope you enjoy it.
You can tell by all of us champing at the bit waiting for you to put it up for sale, Hee! Some guys will sit and watch this post for the next year.

[Shuz]

I have 2 hp pins for mine. The "long" pin(original length) causes boolits to weigh around 230g when cast from ww+1%tin. The "short" pin causes the same alloy to weigh around 240g. I suspect yours will throw boolits in this range. Does your have a round grease groove?

[targetshootr]

Can a standard mold be modified to drop HPs? Or would it be easier to set up a jig and drill holes.

[HCL]

Hey, Thanks for the info, kinda looking forward to casting up some boolits and giving them a try. Hopefully my pistola likes them, it seams to be partial to the LEE310FP, which works well in my 1894 also.
I will not forget yall if it dont work out, still have 14 other moulds to sort through that I picked up in the same box, I know about 6 of them I have no use for, or should say, dont have a gun that will use them. 30cal, and 375, and several round ball. Might have to go out and get some more guns??
I checked the pin length, I am guessing it is the original pin, pretty long. must make quite a large HP, and yes round grease grove.
Still get a chuckle every time I look at that 429303, pointy one, looks kinda like something out of a buck rogers movie. Might be a fun little plinker?
Again Thanks, and I will let yall know they work, hopefully this weekend.
Mike

[Bent Ramrod]

:shock: HCL,

The Ideal 429303 was a nominal 205 grain bullet designed by Carl F. Hudson and written up in the First Edition of the Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets. In the .44 Magnum it could, when backed by 26.5 grains of Hercules 2400, penetrate a 3/16" steel plate. Range was not given, but HP White Laboratories rated it at 1814 ft/sec and 38,780 psi. Mr. Hudson advised approaching this load with "the utmost care." :shock: It was alleged in this writeup to be very accurate with 4.0 grains of Bullseye at target distances and with 5.0 grains of Bullseye at 100 yards. It was accurate at 75 yards with 7.0 grains of Unique. This shooting was done in a Ruger Blackhawk.

Mr. Hudson called his boolit the "Hi-Velo-Pen" for its combination of high velocity and penetration. My own copy of this design, fired in a .44 Special Colt SA clone and a .44-40 single shot rifle, appeared none too accurate with the lighter loads and I've never felt any urge to try anywhere near the full-house No. 2400 load. I wonder if the accuracy problems might be a consequence of too soft an alloy combined with two freakishly deep crimp/grease grooves, that might allow the boolit to slump or bend under pressure as it goes through a forcing cone or down a rifle bore. The Ideal 429215, another gas-checked boolit of around the same weight, performs admirably in both guns. Haven't tried any really hard alloys yet; another future project.

[HCL]

Bent Ramrod;
Thanks, pretty interesting, I may have to do reading on this, I enjoy stuff like that. Kinda a specialized boolit, not intended for four legged game? I will have to cast some up and try it. Dont think I will push those velocities though, that is about 600fps more than I am brave enough to try out of my S&W 629.
But it still looks like something out of Buck Rogers.
There were two more I could not locate, 358432U, single cav, and 358432, single cavitiy, both moulds are wadcutters and look simular but design is alittle differant with the 358432U, have not messured it but the FP (meplat?) looks larger? What would the "U" at the end indicate?

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on the 421 hp. Ive shoot many of them. To get them to expand they need to be cast soft. 5050 ww/pure is about the hardest that will work and when pushed hard enough for good expansion you run into problems with lead with a plain base. The gas checked 244 thompson design was better as it was gas checked. the best of the bunch is the one lyman makes now. the devestator. Its gas checked and has a much bigger hp cavity and really does expand even with using ww down to 1100fps mv. If it were me and i lucked into it. I wouldnt even fool with casting it. Id try to keep the mold as nice as possible and let the bidding wars begin on ebay. You could probably get enough from that mold to buy 4 good useable molds. Just my opinion and as usuall it aint worth much.

[HCL]

well that is certainly something to consider, but if the newer moulds produce better boolits, why would this one be so sought after?
not trying to be pesimistic, just trying to learn.
Thanks

[floodgate]

HCL:

No. 429303 has a "baby brother", #35893, for the .38 Spl./.357 Mag.; same configuration, same purpose. No. 358432 was listed - off and on - from 1931 through 1990, in both 147 and 160 gr. weights; it is an undistinguished plain-base, button-nose wadcutter. The "-U" suffix indicates an undersized mould (either deliberate, or from a resharpened cherry; nose profiles can vary from cherry to cherry); the list in the 1958 First Edition "Handbook of Cast Bullets" has it casting .358" vs. the standard .360". It takes a #439 lube-sizer top punch.

floodgate

[targetshootr]

Anyone guess how deep and wide the hollow part is? I'm gonna drill out a couple.

[Lloyd Smale]

its not that they shot poorly they shot well. Its just that people collect molds just like they collect anything else and some molds are discontinued because they were a poor design and some because they were big sellers. The hp molds werent big sellers for lyman so they quit making them. Now collectors want them for collecting and the guys that were around back when they were popular want them because theres are wore out. Properly cast ive had good luck with about all the hp lyman designs and for the most part have found they outshoot the regular bullets they were designed on. But expansion is a fine line with them. The new lyman mold took care of that problem and it is a very accurate bullet to boot. I wish i could talk lyman into a 452 260 grain version of it!
well that is certainly something to consider, but if the newer moulds produce better boolits, why would this one be so sought after?
not trying to be pesimistic, just trying to learn.
Thanks

[HCL]

Ok, that makes sence on the collecting deal, did not even think of that.
Pretty new to casting, on a couple of years now, but having way too much fun.

[square butte]

Bent Ramrod, Looks like you know quite abit about the Lyman 429-303. I found one last week that is set up as no gas check and a bevel base. Does not appear to have been modified, but i could be wrong. Could this have been a factory special order? Or are most these molds which are cataloged as gas check, but plain base, modified outside of lyman. It casts a nice bullet, but would have to use a pretty hard alloy for much of the penetration qualities advertised for this design. Thanks for the info

[Bent Ramrod]

Sorry I missed your other post, Square Butte, and welcome to the Forum.

I got the info about 429303 from the first edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. None of the silhouettes and woodcut drawings in that handbook, at least to my perusal, show any bevel bases. Yours might have been reamed or bored out by an aftermarket user.

Lyman and Ideal would make new cherries for molds, if the customer were willing to pay the price, and would catalog the designs in the old days for anyone who wanted one. Modifications of mold cavities were, as far as I know, another thing entirely. They were mostly limited to running cherries a band and groove or two (or three) short into the blocks to make a shorter lighter bullet. Early Ideal Handbooks had a message to the shooting brotherhood about the difficulties involved in even slight modifications of cavity designs.

It would be relatively easy for someone with a lathe to set the blocks up to take an angled shave off between the base of the cavity and the end of the gas check shank, eliminating the step in the mold and beveling the base. Are the toolmarks in that area different looking than on the rest of the cavity? I can't imagine any wear on the cherry changing the base that way, as such wear would make everything smaller, instead of adding the bevel. After the experimenter performed this operation, he would naturally try it out, and the resultant heat would reblue the freshly cut surfaces, making them look pretty much like the rest of the cavity.

There might have been bevel base molds by other firms that I don't have any knowledge of (H&G, SAECO, Cramer, B&M experts, please chip in) but it seems to me that the appearance of bevel base molds mostly occurred in the last twenty years or so after the advent of the automatic casting machines like the Master Caster et. al. Mostly what a bevel base does for a cast boolit is to make it fall out of the mould easier, a major consideration when running one of these setups.

Hope this helps.

[HCL]

Ok, was putting handles on this mould 429303 and started thinking about loads, was getting excited, however; that came to a screaching halt when I relized that my seating die will probally deform the point. Did they make a seating die in the same configuration as the top punch for this pointy boolit? I have the top punch but seating dies are either for RP or FP. what to do, what to do?
Wonder if I could take a spare seater out of the die and have it milled to same dimentions as top punch?

[floodgate]

HCL:

Yes, Lyman made a matching seating screw, also #303. You could also maybe use a #93, made for the matching .357 Mag. bullet #35893. Check with Lyman Customer Service. This would be an easy one to make up from an existing seating stem, if you - or anyone you know - has a lathe.

floodgate

[monadnock#5]

Lyman makes four styles of seater screws, one of which is for the pointed boolits. Give them a call. Or, make one yourself. The angle on the nose is 60°. I checked a couple on a comparator at work. Drill a pilot hole deeper than you need, and then chamfer the hole at the 60° angle. That way the seater would press on the angle, and not the point.

[HCL]

Thanks, Again! Will give Lyman a call.
Headed to range tonight will let you know how the 429421hp works out.
Thanks
Mike

[HCL]

Well did not make it to range, but did get some cooked up. Hopefully tomorrow?
It took a handfull of boolits to get the hang of this HP mould, was a challenge and fun. I like the big grease groove on this one. Weight with water dropped WW was between 234.3grs -234.8grs, as thrown size .433, I will not complain at all. I think my 629 will like these just fine.
Had to order 429640hp so I could have a GC version.
This is almost as bad as the ill fated Levergun Disease (Marlinitis).
Thanks

[Shuz]

HCL--Looks just like mine! FWIW, I've found 8.6g of Green Dot to be an extremely accurate round with this boolit. I recently fired several 5 shot groups at 25 yds with my scoped 629 Classic DX 5 incher that measured less than 1". Velocity was around 1075 and SD 12.

[HCL]

Thanks, have not used any Green-Dot, but seams like alot of folks like it. I will have to pick some up and give it a try. Is it cleaner than H110?
Kinda got stuck on H110 years ago, have had really good results with it. (though it is dirty) Loaded these up with 23.3grs, load works really well with another 235gr boolit I use, still have not made it to range to try. Wonder how these PB are going to work at those velocitys?

[Shuz]

HCL--I don't know if Green Dot can be considered "cleaner" than H-110. I don't worry about dirty powder residue left on cases etc. as long as the powder gives good measuring qualitiies, shoots good groups and doesn't lead my bbls. Cost also enters in my decision of which powders to use. I too, got stuck on H-110/WW296(same stuff) years ago, but soon discovered WC820(AA9 lookalike). Performs as well for me and is a heck of a lot less expensive. 23.3 g "should work", but I suggest you may wanna check HP boolit performance in some type of medium. My guess is that your boolits will disintegrate in any hard medium if your hollow point is as deep as the FDB on moost stock 429421HP's. Let us know how your shooting experiments turn out.--Shuz

[Shuz]

Should read 23.3g of H-110 should work. 23.3g of WC820 may be a little too much as my experience has shown it to be a "slightly faster" powder.

[HCL]

Shuz, I belive you will be right about them disintegrating.
I have found that a live birch tree gives a pretty good test on penetration and bullet strength. Of course I have not found one yet that will stop my 45/70, 420gr cast boolit. haha
Dont think I will get to shoot till weekend, going on atv adventure Saturday so I know I will then. I will definatly let you know how they work.
I thought about using two laddles, one with pure lead, the other with WW and pour the nose pure and the rest WW and see how they turn out, of course with less velocity. Going to give that Green Dot a try too.
Thanks
Mike

[HCL]

Lloyd Smale;
The new 429640hp showed up in the mail today, and its all your fault. :drinks:
After what you said and reading up on it, could not resist having one. Still can not belive how large the HP is on this mould, I think someone would have to put an effort into getting it NOT to expand?
Anyhow will fire up pot tomorrow night and have some ready for Saturdays adventure, never know when I may have to defend myself from the Fearsome, Killer, Alaska Tundra Tiger Squirrel, they arnt very big, but have large sharp teeth!
They have been know to carry off Grizz. Scarry.
Will let you know how they turn out, along with the 429421hp.
Again Thanks
Mike

[HCL]

Ok, the 429421hp are pretty darn accurate! And can say that approx 25yrd, S&W 629, 6 1/2" barrel, approx 1350fps, a ground squirrel makes about the same POP
(no acrobatics) as with my 22-250, with its 3800fps missiles, no recovered boolit. Penetration on cut birch round, 8"diax12", had no issues exiting and leaving sizable exit, approx 1"! Still no recovered boolit. (did notice slight leading, but very little, with no gas check?)(50rds)
Now the 429640, all's I can say is Impressive (money well spent) with accuracy and performance! Same pistol, approx same velocity. Not something I would ever want to use if meat hunting. Would make excellent self defense round. Considerably louder POP and acrobatics, with ground squirrels. 8"x12" birch round, was moved/ thrown down the trail several feet, and exit hole was very large, and very splintered, approx 2" in dia. No recovered boolit.(no leading)
Next experiment is to try and pour nose with pure lead and rest of body with WW.
I think they are probably a little hard and the nose is coming apart, leaving the rest of what is left to complete the penetration?
Will set something up to try and trap the boolits for the next one. Water jugs???
Thanks
Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

The trick to that mold is keeping the pin real hot. I dip it in the lead and an even better way is to keep a propane torch right there and heat it with that. I dont think a soft nose could be done with it. To make that mold work right you have to just cast that one mold and cast fast and hot. I think youd have problems doing a two step bullet fast enough. I cast them out of a few different alloys. For low velocity like the 44 special i use 5050 pure/ww with about 2 percent tin added. When im going to stand on them in a 44 mag i use ww with tin. I also use them in my muzzle loader and cast them out of #2 and run them about 1800 fps out of it and the one deer i shot with it did some impressive internal dammage and did exit. Deer dropped in its tracks

[HCL]

You know, it probally would be pretty tough to do a double pour now that you mention it, thinking back to just casting them. I will have to give it try, if nuthin more than just for the trying. I figured out my rythm for the HP moulds and they turned out really well. Like you said, fast and hot, ran my WW temp up from what I normaly cast with, seamed to help also. Did not take long to figure out if the pin was not hot enough was a real pain to get out of the mould.
Being in Alaska I really dont think of using HPs for hunting. With the size of the critters I keep the big heavy flat points ready at all times. Although I am planning a deer hunt this winter off one of the islands, and you gave me a fantasitc idea of using my 1894ss with the 429640s, or maybe scope my pistol?
Your gona get me in trouble :drinks:
Again Thanks!
Mike

[GLL]

Buckshot converted my 429421 to HP. Beautiful design and workmanship. Multiple pins make it quite versatile.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/BD88AD7A19EE4B9/standard.jpg

[HCL]

That is beautiful workmanship! Would be nice to have multiple pins as well, making the one mould far more versatile.
Mike

[45nut]

Jerry,
Can I use that pic for the 2008 CB calendar?

[GLL]

45Nut:

Fine with me if it is okay with Buckshot!

Here is the same mould from a different angle.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/FC1FBCABD1CE997/standard.jpg

[GLL]

Buckshot makes the extra pins. He even supplies one that converts the HP mould back to non-HP !

Great stuff ! :)

Jerry

[MtGun44]

HCL,

Try 10 gr Unique behind that boolit and you'll probably be pleasantly
surprised. This load with the solid 429421s is extremely accurate in
a number of different pistols and several carbines, also - altho it will
not feed in the 92 length carbines, only in my Win 94.

Bill

[HCL]

MtGun44,
Thanks, did try some Unique and found was very accurate when working up loads, kept a bunch for GP. Stuck with the H110 with the full house loads. I like the way the 429421 shoots, and performs.
Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

Had to chuckle the other day. I got a pile of gas checks from the group buy and have been sizing about everything on the shelf in 44 and believe me theres a pile of them. I found probably over a thousand of the devestators i had casted up and boxed. I dont remember doing them but i must have put a couple hours into those bullets!
Lloyd Smale;
The new 429640hp showed up in the mail today, and its all your fault. :drinks:
After what you said and reading up on it, could not resist having one. Still can not belive how large the HP is on this mould, I think someone would have to put an effort into getting it NOT to expand?
Anyhow will fire up pot tomorrow night and have some ready for Saturdays adventure, never know when I may have to defend myself from the Fearsome, Killer, Alaska Tundra Tiger Squirrel, they arnt very big, but have large sharp teeth!
They have been know to carry off Grizz. Scarry.
Will let you know how they turn out, along with the 429421hp.
Again Thanks
Mike

[HCL]

You know that is pretty funny. The other evening I fired up the pot and was going to make a few, with all the daylight we get up here, a fella can loose track of time pretty easy, expecially when busy with something they enjoy. (in summer it dont get dark)
Anyhow I drop out of the mould into a 5gal bucket full of ice water, (towel with small hole on top) and noticed my towel was getting wet? I peared through the hole in the towel and the bucket and had probally 6" deep of boolits (429640hp) in bottom of bucket, trying to push my water out??? Well lets just say it was not evening anymore and WAY past my bed time!
I got a seating stem for that Buck Rogers Boolit (429303), will cook some of them up next week, and give them a whirl.
Sure like these two Hp's though!
I am having way too much fun!
Mike

[45nut]

You got it bad LOL.

[HCL]

45nut;
You know the sad part is,
I know! And I Like it! :-D
Mike

[HCL]

Shuz, you were right about the nose disintegrating. 429640hp.
Here is one that I recovered after it penetrated approx 10" of green cut birch, which is a very hard medium.
It started at 257grs (one pictured is a reject I kept for comparisons)
and the recovered one 105grs. Was surprised to find lube still on it.
Im thinking with the wet paper test, it should let me know if it will mushroom or do the same thing? May have to air cool instead of water drop?
Either way I am shooting, learning and having fun. :-D
The 429421hp, penetrated through and did not recover any.
Mike

[Shuz]

HCL--I think you'll have better results with the air cooled boolits. I know I have.

[Murphy]

HCL,

What lubricator/sizer do you use? I notice the boolits (429640) seem sized a bit more to one side than the other.

Just curious, as I intend to order this same mold and I have both a Lyman 4500 and a Star sizer.

Thanks,

Murphy

[HCL]

Murphy
I use the lyman 4500, with RCBS sizing dies.
That one is hard to tell from picture, but the base was pretty bad, so I ran it through the sizer and put a GC on it so it would stand up strait.
Due to the base it ended up crooked in the sizer die and looks funny. If you look close you can see where the GC actually pushed up some lead on the same side.
Normally they dont look like that. That one was one of the first ones of the day and mould was not quite up to right temp yet.
Kept it only for compairisions to recovered boolits.
I really like the mould and boolit design, but the HP does take some getting used to, with the extra steps during casting.
Have not had any issues with the lubricator or sizers, but I am finding out right quick that I need about 2 more lubrisizers so I dont have to change dies as much between calibures.
Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

my favorite alloy with this bullet is 2/3s ww 1/3 pure with about 2 percent tin added and air cooled. I cant comment as to if the nose stays intact because ive never recovered a bullet. Even shot out of an inline with a sabot using a 90 grians of fff triple 7

[Shuz]

Guys--My 429640HP has had the gas check groove milled out. Boolits now weigh around 267g when cast from WW+2% tin. The only grease groove left, holds only about .4grains of Lars Red, but if sized appropriately for the gun, and backed by 17g of WC820, it shoots great and doesn't lead my.44's.

[HCL]

Shuz,
Out of ignorance I ask this question, so be gentle.
Why would you have the GC removed to make PB? To gain the added weight? Or is there some advantage to a PB over GC? Application based??
I have tried to stick to GC boolits as with my meager colletion of moulds, my guns seam to prefer the GC, I dont mind the extra cost or step of putting them on.
Just wondering??
Mike

[Shuz]

Shuz,
Out of ignorance I ask this question, so be gentle.
Why would you have the GC removed to make PB? To gain the added weight? Or is there some advantage to a PB over GC? Application based??
I have tried to stick to GC boolits as with my meager colletion of moulds, my guns seam to prefer the GC, I dont mind the extra cost or step of putting them on.
Just wondering??
Mike

HCL--I do mind the extra cost and effort, therefore I try to use PB boolits for all my .44 mag shooting. Many designs just aren't available in PB, 429640 and 429303, to name a couple, therefore, I have the gas check groove eliminated by either Milling or "scalping" the bottom of the mould blocks. This later method makes the design quite a bit lighter, and sometimes that is what is intended.

I still have quite a few .44 moulds that are of a GC design, and I gas check 'em and load 'em up once in a while, but mostly just for barrel cleaners in case I get minor leading. Sure beats brushes and patches!

Gas checked boolits can be driven faster than PB, as a rule, but most of my .44 shooting is with loads that are in the 1000 to 1200 fps range, and gas checks aren't needed for those. Hope this clarifies things.

[HCL]

Thanks, makes perfect sense to me.
Though there might be some secrete advantage to a PB boolit that I was unaware of.
I understand the velocity thing, and are probably on the verge of having to use GC’s so will stick with them.
Have not air dropped any yet to try out. Will let you know when I do and how they turn out. Still impressed on how hard they get with water dropping and a little time.
Oh and the 429303 (buck rogers boolits) are surpisingly accurate, will have to experiment with these some more too.
Thanks
Mike

[HCL]

Well for yall that have been watching this to see if I would part with this mould, there is one on the benefit/ swap and sell portion. Remember what ever is given goes to support the site. A very worthy cause!
Not mine but Lyman same mould.
Mike

[madcaster]

HEY YA'LL,hate to be a buttinsky,but I just donated one for the site benefit in swapping and selling.....

[madcaster]

Woops,sorry Mike,I just read some of this thread,didn't mean to step on any toes...

[HCL]

Not stepping on my toes, I posted so more folks would see that you had it over there at the benefit site. :-D
Mike

[hollow-point]

i have a #429303 s/c bniw. inbox would consider trade. something interesting.452423,462560,311440.?

[beagle]

I have four 429421HP moulds. One drops them at 236 and one at 232 grains. The other two are spares and I haven't recorded the weights.

Cavity pin diameter will run right at .156" on these./beagle