Favorite low temperature 1oz 12 gauge load?

[John in WI]

I just started reloading 12 gauge in the spring and have been using International and WAA white wads according to a published recipe. I've been using it for size F buckshot, that I'm hoping to use for winter fox hunting.

It just dawned on me recently (when I started getting frost on my car!) that I have no idea how these will perform when it's cold out.

Can anyone recommend a good all weather 1oz 12 gauge recipe? People at ShotgunWorld seem to agree that Fed 209A primers shoot more hot particles, so tend to keep pressures up. And they also agree that higher pressures seem to improve the burn.

I have several reloading references with at least a couple hundred recipes for 1oz, but it would be easier to choose if I knew what a good powder/primer combo was and then go from there.

[cdet69]

I have read that alot of people warn against the use of Bluedot in cold weather.

[35remington]

That warning is only applicable when the load is outside Bluedot's normal range of applicability. Otherwise there's no problem whatsoever with Blue Dot and cold weather.....and this claim has been misleadingly advanced for some time. Used as recommended, it's fine.

But this is about 1 ounce loads, and Bluedot is not suited for that.

Any fast shotgun powder normally recommended for 1 ounce loads will be fine with your cold weather use. This could be Red Dot, 700X, Clays, etc. If you want to go "modern" you could try something like E3 or Extra Lite but I don't think any of that is necessary as long as the load pressure is reasonable to begin with.

There are so many possible powders and charges that I would suggest you can do about as well with the International you are using than anything else. Look carefully at the load data to select properly.

You might want to select powder charges that are calculated to produce 10,000 psi or so to ensure adequate pressures under cold weather. Those loads with the Federal 209A and CCI 209M might be best of all.

There is no real need for super high velocity loads with extra slow powders, as these are the ones that often work poorly with light shot charge weights in the cold. Stick with the 1150 to 1250 fps velocities, and the fast powders will get you there in fine fashion.

[John in WI]

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking of going with these:

1290FPS 21gr International WAA12SL and 9100PSI in a Federal hull

1345FPS with 22.3 gr. International both with Fed.209A primers

BPI has pre-primed Federal hulls on sale at the moment, and I already have the rest of the components

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Federal-12ga-2-3_4-new_primed_clear-hull-100_bag/productinfo/0621275/

That would even look cool because they're clear!

[runfiverun]

federal hulls are refenhuesen hulls and win wads are tapered.
yeah they'll work once the pressure get's up there and swells the gas seal, but you'll lose some performance until that point unless it does it before the wad leaves the hull fully..
if bpi shows it i have no doubt of it working as they show.

i do agree with using more nominal velocity loads in the cold versus high speed loads.
as the faster loads have a tendency to slow up more and open the patterns faster due to more air resistance.

[0verkill]

Alliant actually says Blue Dot has higher pressure in cold weather.

[35remington]

The most recent contact from the Alliant rep called Blue Dot an "old school" powder that responded to cold weather with somewhat less pressure.

To ensure good performance, the recommendation was to use loads with the hotter primers (no Remington 209's or Fiocchi) and use it within its normal shot charge weights.....no lightweights.

I'd be happy to provide a link to this commentary.

WI John, the hint from r5r needs to be followed up with the comment that you shouldn't be using a tapered wall design wad with a straight wad hull most especially in the cold. This is a route to subpar performance. Use the Federal S3 or S4's or their low cost equivalents, but be advised some of the low cost equivalents have a cheaper grade of plastic that tends to fracture on firing in truly cold weather.

The Federal wads cost more but they have excellent integrity and cold weather suitability.......and they're for your Reifenhauser hulls.....straight wall, in other words. Forget the WSL wad and use the right ones for your hulls.

[Mooseman]

We Trap shoot in very cold weather here , and either Clays or Unique with Winchester 209 primers seem to be just fine. I am loading some Red Dot shells as a test since I ran out of Clays powder...

Rich

[OnHoPr]

R5R made a good point and they should work even in cold weather since it is a fast medium powder (the win wad in the fed hull). FYI old AA hulls are not the same as new AA hulls as some published data says. Also, if your tinkering with specialty loads as you mentioned, if you use a AA hull and a bulkier powder like 800X, the powder charge has the capability to go above the taper, slightly negating the win wad. Then a Fed type wad might be more appropriate.

[Trapshooter]

For trap loads, Nitro-100 is the best I know of for "you must be crazy, it's too cold to be out in this weather"

Trapshooter

[John in WI]

Thanks for all the information.

The reason I'm hoping to use WAA wads is that I can perfectly stack #F buckshot in layers of 7 into this wad with no dimpling or bulging. I can also stack #1 into this wad perfectly into layers of 3. My BPI wads seem to have a fairly steep taper and get quite a bit smaller in diameter towards the base and aren't going to do me a lot of good for buckshot. (unless I cut the petals off).

So to make things easy on me, that's why I put a list of Fed 209A primers/Fed hulls to work with WAA wads. Because I have the wads, and BPI sells the hulls pre-primed.

I'm waiting to hear back about what it would cost me to get some loads pressure tested for safety. The Lyman reloading manual suggest that when you move from bird to buck shot, the pressures actually tend to go down (weight for weight) a little bit. So I'm confident I'm safe if I stick with a posted load. It would just make me feel better to know where I am on the pressure scale.

[35remington]

Again, skip the WAA wads in the Federal hulls. If the possibility of poor performance doesn't deter you, you also must also realize the powder can migrate past the overpowder cup into the wad's crush section when bouncing around in a pocket while walking in pursuit of game. There is enough gap that all powders can migrate past the overpowder cup, not just the "bulky" ones. So powder type won't save you.

There is a separate plastic insert in the AA hull that makes the interior of the case tapered, so the suggestion that powder will migrate past a wad intended for a tapered case is incorrect unless a wad with a short crush section is used like the discontinued WAA12R or its clones, which is a necessity with bulky powder charges of slow powders like those mentioned. So the information from OnHoPr is correct only in those particular instances......slow bulky powder charges combined with short crush section wads seated well above the interior taper. The AA hull, even the new HS variety, does not have that problem of powder migration past the overpowder cup if normal trapload powder type charges are used. A wad intended for a straightwall case like the S3 or S4 is not correct for the Winchester case; a tapered wad like the Winchester variety is so long as low bulk powder charges and long crush section wads are used.

There is a substantial gap between the base of the wad and the wall of the shell when tapered wads are used in the straight walled Federal case. Not good. Proper components for cold weather use (wads intended for straightwall hulls) are better, and I know of no one who recommends this combination as a good idea when the proper ones are available. I can post links that show powder blowby and impact on the crush section of the wad.

Which means the load ain't gonna fire like it's supposed to.

"Using what you have" is a poor idea if the wads you have are not compatible. Not wanting to buy the correct components while also worrying about cold weather performance kinda seems contradictory, doesn't it?

Does cold weather performance concern you, or does it not? Your choice of components will determine your success in this area. Choose wisely and use components meant to be used together and skip the convenience rationale.

There are Federal wads with similar shotcup capacity to the WSL wad. Buy some and see if they work; otherwise, purchase some tapered interior hulls rather than straightwalled.

That's how I'd go. Tapered wall hulls are more common anyway.

You don't have the spare money to get these loads pressure tested, most likely. Ain't cheap.

[John in WI]

thanks for the information 35Rem. I guess I thought that if it was a published load, that it was not only safe, but a good load. The WAA / Federal loads I was looking at were published on the powder maker's sites and in some reloading books.

As cheap as wads are, I wouldn't have a problem getting the proper one to make a good load! I'd hate to have the powder all rattle out and in to the shotcup because the fit is too sloppy.

I'm going to dig back through the references and figure out a more suitable combination. No sense in rolling your own if they turn out to be junk. Or worse yet, unsafe.

I was going to put in an order with BPI anyway (for the Fed. hulls) but am glad I read this before I hit "submit".

[Mooseman]

I would love to see a good Combination chart of Hulls, wads, powder and primers that trapshooters / shotshell loaders have found to be the best loads, for hulls other than AA.

Rich

[35remington]

Well, you did ask about cold weather performance, and the way to get that is to ensure the base of the wad fits the taper of the interior of the case snugly. If there is no interior taper to the case, the base of the wad must be larger. That's why wads are shaped as they are, and tapered wall and straight wall cases should be kept segregated for best results. The shells will then generate the needed velocity and pressure even in the cold.

That way the gasses and powder are where they are supposed to be....behind the overpowder cup, not scattered in front of it.

The powder won't be in the shotcup when it migrates. Rather, it will be above the overpowder cup in the crush section of the wad, and below the shotcup.

When the weather is cold, it helps to do everything correctly. In this case, that means the right wads in the right hulls, and being aware that some cheapie wad replacements that are clones except in quality of the OEM wads are a poor idea as well.

Shots at coyotes are rare enough that you don't want to screw things up by using the wrong wad in the wrong case.

The incorrect wad/case combos listed in loading manuals does not mean that this is the way to do things when the weather conditions are less than ideal. Quite the contrary, in fact. Powder migration and wad fit issues are a more serious problem in hunting loads than shells that are shot at the skeet range in 80 degree weather shortly after they are loaded.

The loading manuals also don't mention that some cheap wad replacements don't do well in the cold. That doesn't mean they don't. Because many fracture, as I said.

You're looking to do better than that. Correct component selection is the way to achieve it.

[John in WI]

I do appreciate that. So far I've been loading using straight walled hulls and WAA wads. Never thought about it. It was in the book, so I used it!

I made up another list of recipes and am about to order some proper wads and hulls from BPI. It doesn't make sense to skimp on components now. I'm already invested in the tools so I might as well go ahead and get the right combinations of hull/wad and do it properly.

I think I am going to go with the deeper 1 1/4oz sized wad so I can use fiber disk in it for 1oz loads, or not use fiber for full weight F and #1 loads. Like maybe a 42 pellet F shot (if I luck out and they stack properly in that wad!)

[35remington]

Make sure any wads used in shotcups are hard enough that pellets do not embed in them under setback forces received in firing. These would not be part of the pattern if that happened. Hard cards are normally used under shot, on top of any fiber present.

I'd probably look to go with more shot than less when used on foxes/coyotes with coarse birdshot or small buckshot. There is such a thing as too little shot for the job. Since the relatively few shot in the bottom of the shotcup bear the weight of the shot above them very unevenly and stressfully, buffered loads would be a good idea along with an appropriate choke.

The fiber wad, when used with a 1 ounce load in a 1 1/4 ounce wad, would probably not be any cheaper than buying a correct 1 ounce wad in the first place. I'd go with 1 1/4 ounces of shot when using F shot, as I mentioned above.

Shot loads of up to 1 1/2 ounces can be used effectively with big name wads like the RP12, which is one of the largest capacity mass produced wads out there. If you need more than that, then there is justification for purchasing BPI's components. If you don't need that much shot, then BPI's selection is very overpriced compared to more easily obtained, more common alternatives.

[kullas]

What is everyone's take on Red Dot for cold weather?

[35remington]

It's just fine. No issues unless you decide to load something ridiculously light like 3/4 ounce loads in a 12 gauge. If for super cold weather and 7/8 ounce loads are being used the 209A may be a reasonable upgrade.

[OnHoPr]

John in WI, I see that you are getting an idea/s of hulls, wads, and powder loading density heights. Also, I see that you are concerned with wad pedal thickness. Pedals come in all types of thicknesses. I'm not sure of your actual applications, but just to add more thought, Precision Reloading also has specialty wads. Generally speaking, the faster powders are better for cold weather, but can't push heavy payloads. Slow powders that can push the heavy payloads can sometimes be a little more difficult to use in COLD weather. The intermediate powders with the semi heavy loads usually tend to do better in cold weather. Wad column stiffness also plays an important roll in these conditions.

[John in WI]

Thanks OnHoPr.
I just heard back from Precision Reloading. I was surprised that there pressure testing service is only $40. They need 6 shells. One to cup open and verify the components, and the other to fire and test. I guess I thought it would be a lot more than that.

Anyway, I did like the WAA wads because for my buckshot loads I could perfectly stack 7 size F (.22) balls per layer, or 3 #1 pellets per layer with no dimpling of the hull after the crimp. The wad fit the shot perfectly without cutting off the petals.

Of course, that won't matter if half of the powder leaks out after a day in the field!

We'll have to see what happens with the new Fed. wads that I ordered, and if they don't work I'll have to either cut the petals off and use a wrap (or just lube the shot), or find a different wad. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Anyway, the person from Precision Reloading also confirmed that you can sub shot for buck (weight for weight) and it's a safe practice. I just need to figure out how to shoe-horn it in to a hull and crimp it.

[35remington]

40 bucks? I have to admit.....so did I. Lot cheaper than I thought.

Might be time to gather a new supply of tapered wall hulls to see if you can make the Winchester wads work in them. Good to have a couple of options as to a load. A dumpster dive would take care of that.

[John in WI]

Yup, I thought it would be a lot more than that too. The equipment must cost a fortune. Here's what they told me:

"Thank you for your inquiry. For the testing, we need 6 shells along with a list of the components used. One shell is dismantled to verify components and the others are tested. The cost for testing is $40.00. Your shells should be shipped to us via UPS Ground or Fed Ex with “ORM-D” clearly written on the box. You are not allowed to ship ORM-D through the postal service."

[35remington]

Thanks, good to know.

[0verkill]

The most recent contact from the Alliant rep called Blue Dot an "old school" powder that responded to cold weather with somewhat less pressure.

To ensure good performance, the recommendation was to use loads with the hotter primers (no Remington 209's or Fiocchi) and use it within its normal shot charge weights.....no lightweights.

I'd be happy to provide a link to this commentary.


Pleas do, here's a copy of the reply I received (minus my address) when I heard what I thought was the most rediculous rumor ever.


RE: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form‏
From: Amonette, Ben (Ben.Amonette@ATK.COM)
Sent: Thu 12/02/10 11:31 AM


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At frigid temps, Blue Dot does have a tendency to go up a bit inpressure but they are still within SAAMI specs. I have attached some buckshot loads from the Lyman Shotshell handbook. Thanks for your note and have a nice day. Ben AmonetteConsumer Service ManagerAlliant Powder Company-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:18 AMTo: Alliant ReloadingSubject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form John Napier
I have heard Blue Dot can have pressure swings in cold weather, is thistrue or just a rumor? Do you still have any buckshot data available?


I'd like to know what changed in 2 years, thier formula or advice? If you'll notice they got back to me the next day, kudos for quick customer service.

[35remington]

Here's the link for the Blue Dot. Note and read the Alliant representative's comment in the third post.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=247359

Either this guy didn't get the word about a "slight" pressure rise (is that really noteworthy? I can see how both statements......slight pressure rise, and down in cold and up in hot, could both be true) or it really doesn't matter that much. Most likely it doesn't matter that much. Most pertinent comments I've heard state that when it is used properly, as in 1 1/4, 1 3/8, and 1 1/2 ounce loads, there is no issue. With either pressures or cold.

Neither commentator, yours or mine, makes it out to be a big deal, and neither claims wild pressure swings or atypical results or bloopers when used as intended. A lot of Blue Dot applications have shown very light shot charges with heavy charges of powder. I can see how in cold weather this wouldn't be a good thing, as the load is propelled out of the case easily by the primer's impulse before the powder gets up to pressure. Too much of this would likely produce bloopers. I imagine a heavier shotload gives the relatively (for a shotgun) slow powder time to work as it should.

Best advice is probably to avoid any slow powder with light shot charges in cold weather, especially with wimpy primers.

FWIW.

[John in WI]

Hey 35 Rem--My Fed hulls and Fed wads came in from BPI today. I see what you mean about the wad/hull fit. This is just perfect--it takes just slight pressure to push the wad in and it fits perfectly in place. No way can powder leak out.

The wad has the same volume as the WAA's, but the gas seal part is a perfect fit. So I think I have a good idea, and now I also have the right components.

Thanks for pointing out the issue with using the "wrong" wads with the straight sided hulls. I think this is going to work out a lot better. Hopefully I can load some up this weekend and see how they do.

[0verkill]

Note the date too, about 2 months after my response. I don't think they changed formulas that quickly. I thought all powders behaved with higher pressures in hotter weather and lower in cold, that's why I couldn't believe the rumor and asked Alliant. I noticed in the link the rep said they also test each batch at -20 degrees. I wonder if maybe below a certain temperature pressure starts to rise again or something odd like that. I'm starting to have my doubts as to whether I should trust any answer I get from Alliant.

[Mooseman]

We shotgunners here in Alaska test Red Dot, Clays, Unique,and several other powders under Arctic condition whether trap shooting or Ptarmigan hunting and if there is a difference it isnt noticeable.
I shot Blue Dot in My .475 Wildey Magnum in the winter and never had to adjust the gas port from its regular setting.