New Lee molds -- is this why they're less expensive?

[I'll Make Mine]

My new molds came in today's mail -- the TL-314-90-SWC intended for rabbit loads in my Mosin Nagant, and the C309-180-R, to become paper patched hunting bullets in the same rifle.

The 90 grain mold had a paper strip wrapped around, indicating it was "inspected by Shirley" and warning me to lube the mold before use; the cavity is sharp and shiny, vent lines on the mating faces are crisp; the only flaw I've noted so far is a small burr on one of the alignment ridges, which is easily removed and doesn't appear to affect mold closing.

The 180 grain mold, on the other hand, has no "inspected by" band, and look as if it might have actually escaped inspection; both cavities have the burrs I'd expect if the cherry were run with the mold incompletely closed (and there was an aluminum shaving between the mold faces when I first opened it, suggesting that might have actually happened). I have no way to know for certain until I cast with it, but it seems likely this mold will cast undersize and out of round by something like the thickness of the shaving that held the blocks apart during the cut, once the burrs are cleaned up.

Now, in this case, I'd be pretty happy if the mold throws .003 or even .005 under, since I plan to size these boolits down to .301 or .302 for paper patching anyway -- but if I wanted .309 boolits to fit a .308 or .30-.30, I might be a bit annoyed, since an inspection by Shirley would certainly have caught this mold and either rejected it or sent it back for rework (ten seconds with the original cherry after cleaning up the burrs).

Now, given what I paid ($60 shipped for two molds with handles and a Lee push-through sizer in .314), I'm not screaming; I'm pretty sure I can remove the burrs at the cavity edges without damaging the cavities or leaving "fins", but a) I shouldn't have to, and b) it suggests Lee is skimping on quality control (in that apparently Shirley and her colleagues aren't inspecting every single mold that comes off the machines).

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/th_1102122002.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/?action=view&current=1102122002.jpg)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/th_1102122001.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/?action=view&current=1102122001.jpg)

[Lefty SRH]

Hahaha, the second pic makes me believe the two cavities are different depths. Could be camera optical illusion but I would be suprised if it were true coming from LEE molds.

[Alan in Vermont]

I had to return my first Lee 6-hole mold, which had the famous Shirley sticker in the box, as the tops of the blocks didn't match up, leaving a seriouos flash around half the base. I suggested "Shirley" get new glasses. I am of the opinion that every inspector at Lee is Shirley, or that Shirley is the only inspector, as I have never seen another name on any of the several molds that have the inspector tag with them.

[Boolseye]

Good luck. Lee has always done right by me when I've had to return stuff.
-Jess, also in VT

[I'll Make Mine]

Hahaha, the second pic makes me believe the two cavities are different depths. Could be camera optical illusion but I would be suprised if it were true coming from LEE molds.

No, they're the same (at least to eyeball precision): what you're seeing is perspective from the camera angle, chosen to make the burrs more visible.

I may give Lee a call after work on Monday and see what they suggest -- on the one hand, a mold that casts a little undersize would be good for what I'm doing with this mold, but on the other hand, I'm concerned that if I try to fix it and fail, they won't take it back, and there's nothing gained by casting out of round.

[runfiverun]

i'd try it before passing judgement.

i have seen some new molds coming out from lee.
better alignment pins [o-k actual alignment pins] and some better looking cavity's.
just waiting for them to fully switch over.

[PS Paul]

Yeah, I've stuck with their 6-cav. in pistol calibers, but I am actually pretty excited to see the new 2-cav. they are coming out with.

[nanuk]

Wow... that is a lot of burrs...

they may just rub off with some hardwood stick and a good rubbing...

but in side that alignment groove looks wonky

[Marlinreloader]

I would just send er back. Lee will make it rt. I would get a new one just in case. That way they can never say you made the changes to the die.
Good luck.

[I'll Make Mine]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to call Lee on Monday -- I don't need this mold immediately (have to make a .301 push-through die, now that I have the .314 Lee die to copy), so if I have to send it back, I won't lose casting time; I may ask if they've got any returns that were significantly undersize but otherwise okay that they'd give as an exchange (I'd expect those get melted down pretty promptly, but you never know).

Marlin, all the cut edges on the right block have burrs, including the alignment groove that matches to the steel rod, as well as both top and bottom milled surfaces. I'm convinced this mold had a cutting between the faces that got there when it was closed on the cherry and stayed through all subsequent operations.

In a way, this is a confidence builder for me; I've been thinking about making molds on my lathe, and there's no way they'll ever have this problem because lathe cutting is done with the (already aligned/pinned and faced for top and bottom) blocks clamped throughout, rather than by closing the blocks on the spinning cherry. I just need to come up with a good way to cut the handle grooves parallel to the faced surfaces (a table saw with a nice tight fence would work, but I don't own one of those; maybe I can build a router table to do the job).

[MikeS]

I thought Lee lathe bored their moulds, rather than cherry cutting them, has this changed?

[I'll Make Mine]

Hmm. Maybe they do, but the top and bottom appear to be milled, and the vent grooves in the mating faces look to be cut with a fine engraving cutter (or possibly pressed in). I don't know how I'd tell whether they're lathe cut or cherry cut, but this kind of problem is one I wouldn't expect on a lathe, because it is (or should be) easy to ensure there's nothing between the faces when clamping them to mount in the lathe.

BTW, looking again in a better light, I found a number of additional aluminum particles, some of them matched to indentations on the opposite face -- there was clearly significant clamping force applied after those particles got in there.

[Buckshot]

.............Lee moulds are lathe bored in a CNC machining center. About 3 weeks ago I bought a Lee C-309-200-R 2 cavity (Midway). The blocks had aluminum smeared across the parting line. With the SP swung open and looking down into the cavities, both had burrs thrown up on the left hand edge (figuring the blocks were rotating counterclockwise, relative to the tools) of the 2 cavities. I'd been there and done that before, so broke out the Leementing tools.

As it turned out it was no help. With the proud metal removed, and then checking the blocks there was daylight between them. Another carefull once over with a loupe looking for pig's ears, possibly left over between the blocks after my cleanup, showed nothing. I then put the blocks between 2 piece of leather in the bechvise and cinched'er down. Daylight was still there. They're currently off to Lee with a short note as to their problem.

...............Buckshot

[Cap'n Morgan]

It sounds as if the mold halves are bearing on alignment pins, preventing the mold to close properly. Since the cavities are lathe turned with the halves not fully closed, the boolits should still be perfectly round. The small gap could actually be a blessing in disguise improving venting. Of course if the gab is too big you'll have flashing. Also, the gap could very well close up during extended use, resulting in an out of round boolit.

[trying2learn]

My first mold was lee it also would not close completely out of the package. I called them and they suggested a little lube on the pins as they do something (forgot what it is called this early in the morning) after being boxed up that can be cured with just a light amount of mold lube applied. I did as they instructed and haven't had a issue yet. As I recall I had to boil it in hot soapy water as usual then dry it warm up the mold and let any residue from the cleaning and or protective coating that was applied at the factory "burn" off. Then apply mold lube to the alignment pins and sprue plate. All the issues I had have left and it is a fairly good mold. Compared to the other lyman ones I now have.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[I'll Make Mine]

.............Lee moulds are lathe bored in a CNC machining center. About 3 weeks ago I bought a Lee C-309-200-R 2 cavity (Midway). The blocks had aluminum smeared across the parting line. With the SP swung open and looking down into the cavities, both had burrs thrown up on the left hand edge (figuring the blocks were rotating counterclockwise, relative to the tools) of the 2 cavities.

Buckshot, this is exactly what I have -- metal carried over at the parting line by the cutter, both in the cavities and on the top and bottom faces. Regardless of cause, this is surely because the mold faces weren't in contact when cut. I do see light through the gap between faces, based on my experience with fountain pen nibs it's .001 to .002 gap, though it might be worse if I were to clean up the carry over on the top and bottom.


It sounds as if the mold halves are bearing on alignment pins, preventing the mold to close properly. Since the cavities are lathe turned with the halves not fully closed, the boolits should still be perfectly round. The small gap could actually be a blessing in disguise improving venting. Of course if the gab is too big you'll have flashing. Also, the gap could very well close up during extended use, resulting in an out of round boolit.

In this case, where I found aluminum cuttings between the halves, some of them with corresponding indentations in the opposite face, I think it's them rather than the alignment pins -- and that means the blocks will/may close up further after cleaning up, leading to out of round and undersize boolits.

At this point, I'm not going to make any effort to fix this myself, at least before talking to Lee; this is one of my first two molds and I have no experience to guide me on what will and won't clean up to make good boolits (and no offense, but I'm getting conflicting answers from the experienced folks here); in any case, it's clear that Lee Precision needs to clean up their quality control a bit, which requires they see what got past their inspection regimen without my prior efforts to clean up after them. If they tell me I have to pay UPS to get the mold to them, I might reconsider (since shipping would be roundly half what I paid for this mold), but if they'll send me a prepaid RGA label, I'll send it off without further thought.

[leadman]

Lee molds have been cut on a CNC mill one side at a time for well over a year now. The Lee Makarov Group Buy was some of the first molds cut this way. It had to be done again because the center of the boolit was not the part line of the cavities. Was off by about .020".

I would call Lee or e-mail them the pictures of the mold.

I recently bought 2 6 cavity molds that are the nicest I have ever seen from Lee. Most of the boolits drop fom the cavities when the molds are opened.

[I'll Make Mine]

I was going to call them this afternoon, after work, but I so gobsmacked after stopping at the bank on the way home -- I needed to find out what check style I could order that would get me 50 checks at a time instead of 140 or 200 (when you write 13-14 checks per year, at most, having a ten year supply is a significant security risk), and they apparently no longer offer that quantity, and the help at the bank branch don't even know for sure -- that I forgot to call. I'll try e-mailing them with the photos and see what I get back.

I know Lee changed their alignment design recently, but I have no way to know how old this mold is; given the type of defect, it certainly seems to have been cut with either a lathe or cherry, with the halves together, rather than one side at a time. Might have sat in stock at either Lee or the retailer; no way to know.

[I'll Make Mine]

Okay, I've exchanged a few e-mails with Andy Lee at Lee Precision. He thinks it's a used, returned mold (sees something he thinks is a lead splash, though I'm not sure I agree) -- used, but never cleaned or lubed, apparently, and then resold by the retailer, which doesn't bode well for my continuing relationship with them -- and that's why it was missing the inspection band. Given the shipping cost to return the mold would be about 2/3 what I paid (it won't quite fit in a small Flat Rate box, and the medium is eleven bucks to ship), and with his technical assistance, I'm going to, first, clean and lube the mold and cast some test bullets to see what effect the burrs have, then if there's a problem, I'll skim the burrs off with a razor blade (carefully, to avoid "fins" on the bullet) and try again.

I should be able to test cast by next Monday (all I still need is a ladle, I'll find something I can adapt at the local thrift stores or the dollar store); then I'll see where I stand.

[fredj338]

Lee makes cheap stuff, just a fact. I expect little for the cheap price & will hope for the best. If I really want it right, I buy something else & am happy to pay more for quality. That goes for all of Lee's stuff. I use some of it but really, it is poorly done for the most part & price reflects that.

[I'll Make Mine]

Lee makes cheap stuff, just a fact. I expect poor quality for the cheap price & will hoep for the best. If I really want it right, I buy something else & am happy to pay for quality. That goes for all of Lee's stuff. I use some of it but really, it is poorly done for the most part & price reflects that.

My very limited experience to date suggests this is a false generalization. I ordered two molds at the same time; the 90 grain tumble lube .314 SWC appears perfect (though I haven't had a chance to cast in it yet -- this weekend, I hope!), while the mold with the burrs might be a customer return that was resold by the retailer. As long as retailers resell returns, the same bad molds (could literally be a few dozen in the USA) will continue to show up over and over and give the manufacturer a far worse name than they deserve. I've broken the chain with this mold; either I'll repair it, or it'll go back to Lee. Further, Lee knows which retailer sold it to me, and I don't doubt they'll follow it up.

Lee's customer support has been very good on this; to get "magnificent" they'd have had to offer to send me a prepaid RGA label to return the mold for evaluation or send me a replacement mold on spec (since even collect UPS would probably have cost them more than their cost to produce the mold), but if I'd been willing to pay half to two thirds the (discounted) price of the mold, they'd have happily inspected and either repaired or replaced the mold; when I balked at spending that amount, they've been very forthcoming with information on how to repair the mold and willing to keep the matter open until I can cast with it. Given I can buy five Lee molds at street price, including handles, for the price of one Lyman mold without handles, and Lyman has their own quality control issues (undersize molds seems the main complaint), I'll continue to buy Lee as long as I don't see a pattern of pervasive neglect or poor design -- or I'll go directly to a custom mold maker such as Accurate for another $20 or so (for brass) above Lyman pricing, if I don't think I can make the mold I need for myself.

[Jim]

Honestly, most of my molds are Lee because that's all I can afford. The only expensive molds I have were given to me.

[MikeS]

While most of my moulds are from the custom & semi-custom moulds I also have a few Lee moulds. I find their 6 cavity moulds are quite a bit higher in quality than their 2 cavity moulds. Also, when I buy a custom mould I expect it to be as close to perfect as can be made, and for the most part that's what I've gotten. When I buy a Lee mould I understand that being a mass produced product that there might be some things not perfect about them. But considering that I can buy 3 Lee six cavity moulds & handles for the price of one custom mould, I don't mind having to either fix (leement) the mould, or have to return it. So far I've been very lucky in that none of the six cavity moulds I've bought have had any problems.

[I'll Make Mine]

When I buy a Lee mould I understand that being a mass produced product that there might be some things not perfect about them. But considering that I can buy 3 Lee six cavity moulds & handles for the price of one custom mould, I don't mind having to either fix (leement) the mould, or have to return it.

Exactly. I don't expect my Harbor Freight angle grinder to match the quality of the Bosch and Metabo tools I fix at work, but I can replace it for less than some folks pay to get new brushes in their Metabo. Lee's initial quality is at least as good as Harbor Freight (really seems better; even my defective mold is nicely put together and finished aside from the burrs), and their customer support is miles ahead -- but their prices are in the Harbor Freight range compared to Lyman, RCBS, etc.

[Shakey Jakey]

I just received a 312-185-R1 2 cavity from midway on Thursday and it is an all new style Lee mould. Has real alignment pins and drops a real nice totally to spec boolit. .312/.300/185. I like the alignment pins. All I had to do is remove the sprue cutter and make it flat with a giant file and chamfer the edges, I find that necessary with any production mould. I gave the top of the mould and the sprue plate a tight wipe of never seize and it slides across the mould like it was on ball bearings. Sized to .310 and lubed with BAC I loaded 20 of them up in front of 16gr of 2400. I shot them thru my copper fowled ruger 77 30-06 and was shocked to have most of them in a 2" circle at 100 yds. I took my Chronograph but being the week before deer season opener its just to busy at the range to mess with that. Went home and cleaned the bore, want to get serious about some load development after deer season.

[I'll Make Mine]

Well, I finally got enough stuff lined up to be able to cast a few boolits from my new molds this afternoon. I used straight clip-on wheel weights, as that was all I have smelted at present (poured six ingots of about three pounds each yesterday); I started with the TL314-90-SWC and quickly started getting good drops. Then I switched to the C309-180-R that has the burrs -- and once I got the mold hot, darn if it didn't start dropping pretty well also. I did get a number of boolits with slight fins, and they don't drop as readily as the smaller ones, but I think cleaning up the burrs with a razor blade will improve things.

I found that I have to watch both molds to be sure the two halves are joined evenly before I close the sprue plate; they want to close with the left half (with sprue plate attached) higher than the right, but as long as I ensure they're flat, these molds will drop good boolits almost at the drop of a hat. I was quite surprised at how little preheating they required, and how slowly I could cast once they were hot -- yet with two cavities, I ought to be able to drop 300+ boolits an hour from either one.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/Smelting%20Wheel%20Weights%20into%20Ingots/th_FreshBoolits.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/dqualls/Smelting%20Wheel%20Weights%20into%20Ingots/?action=view&current=FreshBoolits.jpg)

[Longone]

What is the dia. of the 309 boolit as cast?

Longone

[I'll Make Mine]

The .309 boolits are dropping at .311, and round within my ability to measure (dial caliper -- they're within .001).