Looking for a Gunsmith

[gcollins]

Howdy all,
Here a month ago I bought a nice 6mm-284 rifle barrel. When I bought it I was told it had less than 50 rds threw it?? So I hope someone knows a gunsmith that has a bore scope! I have no idea what they charge to do something like it?I got a new Harbor frieght flyer, and they have a Digital Inspection camera made buy Cen-Tech, I would research it out to make sure the camera is at lest the size of a 6mm chamber.
If so, I would think that it would be worth the on sale price $69.99?
I will set back and wait for some help?[smilie=1: :coffeecom
Greg:brokenima

[Mooseman]

Most Gunsmiths use the Eyeball method to inspect barrels that you can look through.
A clean barrel held up to a light , or a white piece of paper that is used to reflect light into the barrel and we look for pitting, corrosion, shadows that show bulges, etc.
For muzzleloader barrels I drop a light down the barrel to the breech to examine them..
I never have seen the need for one of the snake cameras yet.
Rich

[waksupi]

No way would I buy a bore scope. They are okay for checking throat erosion, and just to play with, but they don't tell you a darn thing about how a barrel is shooting. Clean a barrel, learn to read the light bars in them, and that is all you need to know.
Why do you want to throw money away?

[Casting Timmy]

I think I would just do a visual and inspect it then go shoot it. If you find out it's bad you'll probably just shoot it to see what you get anyways.

I would just save your money unless you think it's really not safe to shoot, then have someone check it if you;re worried about it blowing up.

[gcollins]

Thanks! That was my thought's but I knew I could get a strait answer here.
Later
G

[B R Shooter]

I can't imagine how a gunsmith can gaze down the bore of a barrel and be able to determine the barrel's condition, other than it has rifling in it. How would you ever see throat erosion, fire cracking, or whether there is throat damage due to improper cleaning?

I would think any decent smith would bore scope a barrel for you for next to nothing. After all, he could very well be getting a chamber job. If he's honest, he'll tell you what he sees.

A 6-284 is a big barrel burner, very overbore. It won't take long to eat up the throat if you don't pace yourself between shots.

[Longone]

Well on the other side of the coin, a bore scope can save you money if you are looking to buy a used rifle or if you shoot certain powders like Varget. A quality bore scope will show throat wear, carbon ring, copper and fouling that will affect accuracy. I was once looking at a 40-X BR in 22BR, one look with the scope told me the seller was full of $%!&. You could hold it up to the light or paper test and it looked great. It is certainly a big expenditure but in time it will pay for itself IMHO.

Longone

[largom]

I would not be without my borescope and its right-angle lens. Have never met a gunsmith that could eye-ball a rifle bore at right-angle.

Larry

[Mooseman]

So for over 200 years , before Borescopes were invented how did we survive By using our eyeballs to examine gun barrels ???
I have yet to see a borescope that could see a bulge in a barrel like my eyes can !

[wv109323]

I don't think the scope from Harbor freight is small enough to use in a rifle barrel. To determine a small enlargement in a bore you need to air-gauge. You might see a bulge in a barrel but a bore that has a .001 to .002" enlargement I don't think you can see with the naked eye.
I am not a gunsmith but how are you going to see such a small variation in tolerance.

[waksupi]

When I worked for Serengeti Rifles, I inspected a LOT of barrels. Very few needed a bore scope. If you know how to read a barrel, and if the rifle is shooting well, the scopes just are not necessary. Damn few know how to do it. I had to teach a couple engineers how.
The worst one I ever saw, was a Winchester M70 barreled action that came from Wyoming for restocking. By naked eye, I could see the barrel looked terrible. With a bore scope, it looked like there was no way it could shoot well. I called the owner, and suggested re-barreling that rifle. He declined, said it had always shot well.

And it did. On test firing, even with a sewer pipe barrel, it shot sub-MOA at 100 yards. We didn't re-barrel it.

[Mooseman]

I don't think the scope from Harbor freight is small enough to use in a rifle barrel. To determine a small enlargement in a bore you need to air-gauge. You might see a bulge in a barrel but a bore that has a .001 to .002" enlargement I don't think you can see with the naked eye.
I am not a gunsmith but how are you going to see such a small variation in tolerance.

To answer your question...you won't see that small of a variation unless it forms a ring of sorts. But, you wont see it with a borescope either. You either slug the barrel , or air gauge it to find something like that.
In a fairly clean shiney bore, I can see a .003 or larger bulge pretty clearly because of the shadow that is cast by the light in the pipe ! I can see pitting, corrosion, Bad lands, worn edges , leading, etc. in regular used barrels. I can do a cerrosafe chamber cast to measure chamber, freebore, and see signs of throat erosion if my visual inspection sees a problem or a fired casing shows a problem.

Rich

[Longone]

[QUOTE=waksupi;1905381]When I worked for Serengeti Rifles, I inspected a LOT of barrels. Very few needed a bore scope. If you know how to read a barrel, and if the rifle is shooting well, the scopes just are not necessary. Damn few know how to do it.

I agree, there is no substitute for the experience you gain looking at big bore hunting barrels. But in the case of high volume target rifle barrels you will not see some of the common problems that exist. Many times over you will scratch your head trying to figure out why the ugliest barrel shoots well and never come up with an answer.

I recently went on a search for a T/C in 223, barrel looked great and the gun looked like it was a safe queen. When I scoped it the barrel was pitted and you could see copper fouling at and beyond the pits. I passed on the gun and will never know if it was a shooter or something that someone was frustrated with and dumped.

Longone

[B R Shooter]

I'm scratching my head over this eyeballing a barrel and thinking you can determine it's condition. Aint happening! And how often would someone come across a bulged rifle barrel?

Many years ago (many) I remember an article on rifle barrels and it was in reference to Douglas. There was a picture of somebody looking down the bore, and straightening it. Now many back that far in time straightening a barrel was common, but it isn't now. And understand, the barrel wasn't bent, it was drilled with a curve in it. So they were straightening the bore by BENDING the barrel.

The point in this is, what maybe was common practice many years ago, surely isn't common now. Borescopes aren't the huge expense as they once were. And I can't believe a gunsmith doesn't have one today.

[koger]

Anschutz and Savage still use the same equipment to straighten barrels, as you mention BR shooter, time proven and tested since the late 1800's, and no one on earth can question how their barrels shoot! Dieter Anschutz could not get anyone to import his guns in the early 60's, made a deal with Savage, if they would import his guns, he would show them how to make better barrels. I have some old Guns and Ammo mags bound in hardback, two different articles, showing a tour thru the plants, of Savage and Ans., both articles show them using a barrel straightening wheel, and how they determined the straight of it by light reflection. I also know Savage has a guy with 50 years experience, who trained a whole new generation to do this. Their bores are often rough, even new, but shoot like a house afire.

[John Taylor]

I don't have a bore scope but do make barrels on occasion. I work mostly on old guns and it is sometime very obvious when the bore is not good. Problem is, a rough bore does not mean it will shoot bad and a shiny bore does not mean it will shoot good. The only way to tell for sure is on the range. If your buying a used barrel, there is a reason it was taken off the gun. About 1/2 of the rebarrels I do are to change caliber, the rest are because the barrel will not shoot good. Not shooting good is not always the barrels fault.

[waksupi]

I think this argument boils down to experienced gun builders, versus someone who thinks they know more than someone with experience on the job.

[Longone]

Sorry to hear you think this is an argument. I am continuing to learn even with a Hawkeye borescope.

Longone

[B R Shooter]

I think this argument boils down to experienced gun builders, versus someone who thinks they know more than someone with experience on the job.

Or someone who thinks his way is the only way.

I can guarantee you each and every top shelf benchrest smith in this country has a bore scope and uses it daily. People like to see what is going on, not speculate.

Of course, some people's definition of accuracy/fouling/cleaning are different than others.

And top shelf barrel makers do not bend a barrel to make up for a crooked hole. They drill it straight to begin with.

[Mooseman]

The people at Bore-tech support us 'eyeballers"...
http://www.boretech.com/products/borebrite.shtml

While granted , a borescope will give a close examination of a VERY Small area of a bore , they Cannot do what the human eyeball can as far as focusing down the entire length of the bore to check for certain things. You would be surprised at how many corroded, bulged rifle barrels, muzzleloader and shotgun barrels I have seen in 40 years of looking.
I carry several different lights and a 90 deg. mirror assy with me to gunshows to examine barrels on used guns before I buy them. I have never seen anyone use a borescope at a gun show.
Eyeball training during my apprenticeship to become a Gunsmith was tested on a weekly basis by my teacher. My rifles shoot accurately and thats the bottom line.
A borescope cannot tell you that.

By the way...Excess lubricant left in a barrel is the most common reason a barrel will get a bulge in it when fired.
Rich

[John Taylor]

Or someone who thinks his way is the only way.

I can guarantee you each and every top shelf benchrest smith in this country has a bore scope and uses it daily. People like to see what is going on, not speculate.

Of course, some people's definition of accuracy/fouling/cleaning are different than others.

And top shelf barrel makers do not bend a barrel to make up for a crooked hole. They drill it straight to begin with.

If you buy a "top shelf" barrel and the hole is centered at both ends it means it was turned between centers before it was sold. Most of the companies that do barrels use the same type of deep hole drill., sometimes called a self centering drill (which it ain't) Some info on deep hole drills http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/deep_hole_gun_drills_function.shtml

A strait hole is not as important as a good chamber and proper crown. The bullet is going to go in the direction the last inch of barrel is pointing. The harmonics of a barrel will make more difference than the bore being a little off strait. A lot of the new factory guns are going with hammer forged barrel, which might need to be straitened.
I buy barrel blanks, sometimes 15 or 20 at a time. Depending on who I get them from, some will be turned between center and some will be in the rough and one end will have the bore off center. They all seem to shoot just fine, if one don't it gets replaced by the company that made it. Some barrels that are not stress relieved properly will warp when machining. I have learned which companies not to buy from. Cut rifle barrel usually don't need to be stress relieved if they were properly heat treated to begin with.

[Longone]

John,

You make a very important point, the chamber job and crown are much more important than the rest of the ingredients. A chamber that is cut off center to the bore or poorly cut will be a headache from the very first shot, and the crown is the last thing the bullet sees of the barrel.

Mooseman, I don't think anyone is taking anything away from your training or experience, just a different look if you will. And you are sort of right, I don't carry my Hawkeye into a gun show, it's kept in the truck in case I find something worthy of further examination. I am not a gunsmith but a shooter, in my Hi-Power days I would regularly burn through 3-4000 rounds of 223 per season. Now I am on a little slower track, but I am always looking for something to add to my safe and before it goes home with me I will ask permission to examine the bore. If the is answer is no I say thank you and move along.Yes there is still the chance of getting a bummer barrel even with the inspection but I feel you limit your chances by looking for obvious wear or neglect.

JMHO thats all.

Longone

[B R Shooter]

John, no argument from me about the chamber and crown. I have however sent barrels back for what I considered a hole with too much drift in it, and I never had a maker argue it. My point only was I don't agree with straightening a crooked bore by bending the blank.That and thinking someone can tell the condition of a bore by looking down it with a naked eye.

Hammer forged barrels are used because they are cheap to make, not because they are accurate.

[gcollins]

Hi Guys,
I am great full for all the advice you guys have gave me. I did know that the crown and the cambering play's a big part of how accurate the barrel is.
I sure hope that my question hasn't sparked a big battle between you guys!!Y The reason is: I bought this barrel, looking with my eye it looks good, the guy I bought it from said that it had less than a hundred rounds down the pipe.But who know's? Since the 6-284 are known for fast barrel ware if you run it to hot and to many round's down the pipe withouct letting it cool, why go to all the work fitting it and everything else to find out it needs the chamber redone.
Later & Thanks!
Greg

[sbowers]

Well if you are afraid of the barrel being bad, is it for sale, if it is mayber we can get together, because I am not skeered of the barrel and I can use it.
Steve