1895 Nagant reloading issues

[Brett Ross]

Hi all. I have been cruising the site since I started casting and reloading for several pistol calibers ( first post) . MY first reloads were for the 38 Special, followed by 9x18mm Mak, 9x19mm luger and 7.62x25 Tokarev . I have has little problems making what I would consider, at this time in my reloading career, useable accurate ammo, that is up to the Tokarev, and now a 7.62x38r Nagant ammo. The issues I am having is the large bores , as compared to the relatively small chamber / cylinder sizing of these commie jewels. I seem to be getting reasonably accurate ammo loaded for the Tokarev , but the Nagant is giving me problems. I slugged the bore on the Nagant and came up with .313, I forget the land size, but remember being surprised how deep the groves were. I don’t think the large bore is due to wear, as the rifling looks sharp. The problem is when I size my Lee cast "TL90-314-SWC" water quenched WW Boolit, to .314 it will not fit in the cylinder after loading. To overcome this, I run the loaded cartage back in the full length sizing die, (just far enough in to chamber, Process below). I tried these at the range the other day and was having some Key hole issues at 15 yds. The rounds reloaded duplicating the gas seal were worse than without the “gas seal” . My loads are using 3.2 gr of red dot. This was the only powder I had on the shelf, I could find anyone trying with cast bullets. Ok, my hope is the load is a bit to hot for the boolit , but my fear is I am swaging the boolit in my last process. I think my next step will be to back off my load to 2.5 gr and try again. I would appreciate any and all suggestions. The funny thing is my key hole reloads still grouped better than the Privy factory loads. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give all information I could.
Thanks
Tony
With Gas Seal
Set up
1. In position 1, of the 4 hole turret set up the powder thru expander die, setting are
a. Raise Ram and thread in die until touching the shell holder, than back out “1 full turn”
2. Position 2, place the Lee, Universal flaring Die.
a. Adjust to give small flare on case mouth
3. Position 3, place The Lee Bullet Seating Die.
a. Thread Die until touching shell holder, adjust the bullet seating knob down all the way ( it can get tight toward the end, the beginning of knurled part of the knob will be almost inside the die housing).
4. Position 4, place the Lee full length resizing die
a. Thread die until touching shell holder, and back out 4 turns.
5. In non-existent position 5 place the Lee Bullet seating die for the 7.62x25
a. Thread die until touching shell holder
b. Back bullet seater out all the way
Reloading
1. Lube case
2. Do No full length resize
3. Use Lee Universal Flaring Die to bell the mouth slightly
4. Use Lee Powder Thru Expanding Die to dispense powder and prime now ( this will expand the case down the length a bit)
5. Use Lee bullet Seating Die to seat the bullet fully and begin the gas seal (using the crimping portion of the bullet seating die)
6. Use the Lee Full Length Sizing Die to crimp the bullet in place and size the case to fit the chamber.
7. Use the Lee 7.62X25 Bullet seating die (with the seater back out fully) to finish off the gas seal to you and your Nagants taste

Procedure for reloading 1895 Nagant 7.62x38R, using Lee Dies in a 4 hole turret press
Without Gas Seal
Set up
1. In position 1, of the 4 hole turret set up the powder thru expander die, settings are
a. Raise Ram and thread in die until touching the shell holder, and back out “1 full turn”
2. Position 2, place the Lee, Universal flaring Die.
a. Adjust to give small flare on case mouth
3. Position 3, place The Lee Bullet Seating Die.
a. Thread Die until touching shell holder, and back out 1/4 turn, adjust seating depth to 1.50 OAL
4. Position 4, place the Lee full length resizing die
a. Thread die until touching shell holder, and back out 4 turns.
Reloading
1. Cut and trim case to 1.260
2. Lube case
3. Do not full length resize
4. Use Lee Powder Thru Expanding Die to dispense powder, and prime now
5. Use Lee Universal Flaring Die to bell the mouth slightly
6. Use Lee bullet Seating Die to seat the bullet and adjust to give a light crimp, OAL 1.50
7. Use the Lee Full Length Sizing Die to crimp the bullet in place and size the case to fit the chamber.

[9.3X62AL]

Do a search here for the methods used by others to derive ammo for the Nagant revolvers. I've posted in the past my combination of dies used to make accurate ammo with Starline and Fiocchi full-length brass.

My revolver (1916 Tula) doesn't have the dimensional quirks yours displays--grooves are .311", and boolits sized .312" and seated in the cases fit in the chambers without problems. My crimping involves the use of a 32 S&W Long sizer die (minus decapping rod), with the cartridge inserted only so far as to have the sized/"crimped" case mouth meet the boolit's shoulder intersection within the case. Boolits used are the Lee 100 grain RN, Lyman #313492 WC, or the RCBS 98 SWC.

I had a similar problem with the tight neck found in my Type 54 ChiCom Tokarev's chamber. I set aside a lot of brass I made some years back from 9mm Win Mag brass--resized them normally--then ran a 30 caliber neck reamer into the cases on my Forster case trimmer. That did the trick. Perhaps a similar approach could be applied to your Nagant revolver to cut away a bit of the neck area of the case mouth area on your full-length cases.

[rond]

Try the Hornady .32 hollow base wad cutter for target loads, they should seal the bore.

[Nobade]

My method for making ammo for this revolver:

Use 32-20 shell holder.

If new brass, expand the inside with a 32-20 expander die and slightly bell the mouth.

If previously fired brass, just decap, clean, and recap. No resizing.

Throw charge of FFFg black powder to give about 1/8" compression. The amount will change depending on how long a boolit you are using. Usually it is about 17 grains.

Put boolit in case and seat flush with the mouth with an arbor press.

Run round into a 30 Carbine taper crimp seating die to put enough crimp on the mouth of the case so it will enter the back of the barrel and function.

Check ammo in your cylinder. If it won't go, lightly touch it with the 30 Carbine sizer (decap pin removed) until it will go.

Boolits I have used so far are Lyman/Ideal #3118 and Lee 100gr. round nose. Cast from air cooled wheelweights, lubed with Bullshop's NASA lube. Sized .312".

Black powder ammo is quite a bit more powerful and far more accurate than any load with smokeless that stays within the very low pressure rating of these revolvers. Cleanup is a snap thanks to the gas seal design, and there is no problem about having undersize boolits not seal the bore. The BP makes sure that happens.

Today I shot my revolver with some new Privi factory ammo. Not impressive - 8 inch groups at 25 yards, and very low velocity. My BP loads are more like 1.5 inches at that range and take considerably less (like 8 feet less) holdover to hit our 200 yard gong. That's the last smokeless ammo I shoot through my gun! At least the brass is good stuff and didn't split when it was fired.

[BCRider]

Nobade, your results are almost compelling enough to consider getting a Nagant revolver. That is some great stuff you have tried and tested.

In fact I've copied it to a file and squirreled it away for "some day".

A question for you though. Given the extreme working of the brass to flare then crimp it over do you or are you going to anneal the case mouths at some point?

[Nobade]

It really doesn't move much. Just the barest flare to get the boolit started, and just enough taper crimp to get it to function. It doesn't need anywhere near as much crimp as the Privi factory ammo has. But I will likely anneal them after a few firings, if nothing else to get an even better seal.

And if you want one of those revolvers I'd get it and a stash of Privi brass while the getting is good. They are actually quite nice functional revolvers, and no slouch power -wise if loaded with black powder. For $100 for the gun and $30 for 100 pieces of brass it's a real deal. Graf's has both right now.

[9.3X62AL]

I'll admit my prejudices right out front--I'm a total enthusiast for 30/31/32 caliber revolvers and pistols. Getting an 1895 Nagant was pretty much going to happen at some point. The double-action trigger on my example is impossible, but single-action is usable. The Nagants are "Kit Gun"-sized, though their grip frame and stocks don't get along very well with my big ol' paws. They pack in a coat pocket pretty well, in other words.

I've sluiced jackrabbits to 35-40 yards with the little monster. The revolver is so funky and contraption-esque that it exudes a perverse charm of its own, much like my rebuilt Broomhandle Mauser.

As for self-defense......in its smokeless load form, it is just slightly more powerful than the 32 S&W Long. Those blackpowder loads mentioned above are an intriguing spin-off, and this isn't the only revolver caliber that lost something in the changeover from The Holy Black. The 45 Colt comes to mind in this context. If there are no other sideirons at hand, the Nagant beats throwing rocks all hollow. One of the wadcutter designs might tip the scales a bit in the defender's favor, the wadcutter DOES deliver maximum meplat to the assailant. And I'm all for taking every advantage I can ahead of time.

I gotta give that BP idea at least a test-drive. :)

[buck1]

Lots of good info here. Heres a link to a lot of it. 32-20 brass is the ticket .
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=101678&highlight=1895+Nagant

[Brett Ross]

Thanks all for the suggestions
I’m not sure why, but I am fascinated by the “gas seal” quirk of this old wheel gun. With this in mind here is my next move to resolve my keyhole issues.
Make five rounds using .314 water quenched WW, boolits, but lower my charge to 2.5g of red dot.
Make five rounds with .311 boolits , water quenched WW using 3.2g of red dot
Make five rounds with .314 sized boolits air cooled soft alloy 3.2g red dot
Make five rounds with .311 sized boolits air cooled soft alloy 3.2g red dot
Repete the process using trail boss powder , yet to pick up.
I will fire all at 15 yds and see what happens

[Brett Ross]

Well I decided to make a dummy bullet and then take it apart using a dermal cutter and found what I expected. I am swaging the bullet in my last step to make it fit the cylinder, around .006. I had already loaded up a few with the lower charge of red dot and with the newly acquired, trail boss. I will go shoot them today but do not expect any better results. I’m thinking, I may load up a dummy round with my .314 cast boolit , take it with the cylinder to a machinist and get the cylinder fit to the round. I know this is more than the 100.00 gun is worth but I find it a learning experience and interesting.

[I'll Make Mine]

Making a $100 gun with a cool concept into a good shooter might well be worth having the seven chambers reamed. Don't forget, you may also have to ream the cartridge inlet in the breech end of the barrel (else the bullet will swage down before it hits the forcing cone), and that will be the expensive part -- most likely it'll require removing the barrel from the frame to do the work.

[Brett Ross]

If that were the case would I have not seen it in the barrel slug? OK range report, the smaller charge of red dot was no better, but the trail boss had no key holes and held a 8", 5 shot group, with 1 flyer at 25 YDS, all from a sand bag rest. It looks as if the round likes the trail boss much better. I do think I will get the chambers reamed. I have hope of making a good shooter out of this old jewel, once I can get the boolits fitting the barrel better. Ona side note. I am dealing with Buckshot on getting some sizing dies for a old 8x56r i am looking to start reloading for. I think i will see if he does this kind of work also.
Tony

[I'll Make Mine]

If that were the case would I have not seen it in the barrel slug?

No.

I'm referring to the counterbore that the case plugs into to form the gas seal; if that's undersize (smaller than groove plus twice case mouth thickness) it can swage the bullet too small to shoot well, but still not show in a barrel slug measurement because the case thickness means it'll always be bigger than groove. You should be able to measure that diameter with a Cerrosafe casting or similar.

I have no information that says undersize gas seal counterbores are a problem with 1895 Nagants -- but if your cylinder chambers are small enough to require swaging down the bullet in order to chamber the round, it's certainly possible the counterbore was made similarly oversize.

[Brett Ross]

OK, I think I understand. Sounds like my first chamber casting is in the immediate future.

[nwellons]

I've found I like black powder the best in my Nagant too. Better velocity, accuracy, cool smoke and odor. I find it is quite easy to clean.

[Brett Ross]

Range report. I have not changed up my reloading process any but am using the same bullet but cast from a softer alloy and air dried (my first boolits were from than my WW, water quenched ). I shot 2, 4 shot sets, both from 25 yds, no key holes, 1 group 6" and 1 group 4". Barrel leading is to be seen as not sure how much I can tell with 8 shots. I’m thinking the softer alloy may expand better to engage the rifling. On a separate note just dumping high tin content solder into WW alloy may not be my best bet for hardening boolits . I received two sizing dies I had order from buckshot for my 8x56R, and it seems you can make a boolit hard enough that it will not size (got one stuck and had to drive it out in reverse). Well lesson learned, at least I did not damage the sizing die getting the boolit out. A guy sure does a lot of dumb stuff, on the way to knowledge.

[jh45gun]

I just shot 32 mag in mine with no issues though it does swell the brass but they extract fine. I got rid of mine I had two I wish I would have kept one now just for grins.